What antics?
Graeme Sourness | Retires from “punditry”
- Thread starter Bubz27
- Start date
Being a public figure and having fun in his off time on social media.
And that qualifies as antics? I thought he was knocking on old people's doors and running off or inhaling nitrous oxide canisters.
It's really not about 'is he a racist or isn't he?' Saying something where race is an unconscious factor doesn't mean you should be tarred with the label of racist forever. That's not really what this is about for me. It's about why doesn't someone at Sky have a word with him and get him to think a little more before he talks about Pogba. Cos as it is Souness seems literally incapable of saying anything nice about him, even when he's putting in record breaking performances. And lots of people are reading subtle racial bias into it.
You don't need to prove beyond doubt that someone is a racist before you pull them up on uncomfortable things they say. I think it's important to listen to Black people when these conversations are happening and not force them to prove the racist intentions of a person before you challenge Souness. He's not on trial, people are just questioning why Sky keep giving him airtime to contribute to an unremittingly negative narrative about one of the best players in the league.
Well to him it probably does, he's a purist who thinks anyone that doesn't stay at home and think about football every second after practice is a hoodlum
You have been told straight up that no, that's not the conclusion.
What the feck are you doing?
How do you know it's an 'unconscious factor'? Maybe as people have said, he has high expectations of Pogba which he doesn't live up to. Souness will always be a KDB fan more than a Pogba.
Sky don't need to do anything re his opinion on Pogba, and as for not saying anything nice about him, maybe you should read the post above.
Who's forcing black people to anything? Giving him airtime for precisely that reason; he's not afraid to voice his opinion. Far too many on there are insipid
Weird post
This is a guy who was dating a former Miss World and sold his story to The Sun...don't think he ever saw himself as a 'purist.'
I think a person should only be called a racist if he’s done something or said something which is racist. Finding evidence of racism in instances bereft of context doesn’t work because correlation isn’t causality. Let’s criticise Souness wholeheartedly for his crystal clear bias against Pogba. There’s enough material there.
Please don’t kill me.
Please don’t kill me.
What are you doing? Either you are, or you're not.
For my part I'm not particularly entertained by him. Just annoyed.
This is the kind of attitude that allowed the likes of Tommy Robinson to be given a platform.
I don't think people in here are saying that Souness is a bona fide racist, people are just speculating if some of his criticism of Pogba is a result of a hint of racial bias. His comments on Lamela already show that he's not above stereotyping people based on their origin.
People act like it's impossible for a pundit to hold any form of prejudice, when just as recently as last year we had studies demonstrating a clear bias in the way players with lighter skin are presented in comparison to those with darker skin. I'm not even saying that Souness is guilty of this, but given his attitude towards Pogba in comparison to someone like Jack Grealish for example, it's not beyond the realms of possibility, so I don't know why people are getting so upset that people are having the discussion.
First of all no, this is stupid. You've read the thread, you know full well that that people have been talking about how biases can influence people in subtle ways, and that this is completely different from "old school" explicit hate. No one here is accusing Souness of hating Pogba because he is black. You know this 100 %.
Secondly, you said this:
You knew that this wasn't the conclusion, but you said it anyway. You made it up. This isn't the first time you've written on Redcafe on why we shouldn't bring race into stuff because it's damaging for real racism or whatever. If you're honest here, if you think stuff like that is damaging and you care about racism, then what you should do right now is to stop making up accusations of racism.
For me this is about how you try to deal with racism in football. I don't think that you can do that just by banning fans who make monkey chants in the grounds, or who abuse black players on football, because that isn't the only form of racism there is. It would be nice if Sky could talk about how their program might be contributing to racist ideas and not have its presenters shut down any conversation where people question the sense in what they say - like in the Micah Richards example.
He's paid to be a pundit, which means he's meant to offer knowledge and analysis of the game. He doesn't do that, he just tells an international audience that he doesn't like Pogba every week. You can like him for that, i guess, but he's normally on with Roy Keane, Gary Neville and Jamie Carragher. You think that they're insipid and Souness is the only one being brave and opinionated? The issue I have with punditry is that most of them would rather talk about how much they like or don't like certain players than what tactically is happening in the game.
It is much more complex than that. That is the element you are failing to grasp.
Good post.
This is exactly the point I was making earlier. But was told to "have a good day" as I clearly "cannot have a reasoned conversation".
It was a Souness-esque response.
It's funny, it's always the people who say that conversations like this detract from 'real racism' who are the quickest to shut down any attempt at conversation as soon as the issue comes up. They're so transparent.
People criticized lingard for beanz, beanz, beanz etc on social media. Apparently it’s distracting.
likewise Beckham used to be called a “circus” because he dared have a partner who was famous at the time.
beckham also used to get grief about his haircuts and fashion choices.
Players will always get people criticizing for the silliest reasons
Are you referring to me?
Absolutely not.
That's disgraceful as well. Sometimes fans are utter utter morons. I know some guys who know things about football, yet thought Luke Shaw was a fat wanker who gorges on pizza because the then manager threw shades at him. No amount of evidence to the contrary will prove them otherwise.
I’ve never seen this before, but yeah, I think it’s a problem in sports punditry in general unfortunately.Souness should join the old has-beens on that Old-gits show Soccerball Gillette or whatever its called.
Old git.
Old git.
What I find troubling is that the people on here that are defending Souness no matter what he says or does are the same people criticising Pogba in his performance threads no matter how he plays.
Doesn’t feel right, almost like it’s ok to abuse Pogba repeatedly at any opportunity because I don’t like him, ergo also it can’t be in any way racially motivated….because I don’t like him.
Doesn’t feel right, almost like it’s ok to abuse Pogba repeatedly at any opportunity because I don’t like him, ergo also it can’t be in any way racially motivated….because I don’t like him.
I feel this fundamentally misses the point as there’s literally never been any such thing in football and most likely never will be. Pogba is unique, the combination of things he is can’t be found in any other player active, perhaps sans Neymar - it’s impossible to make hypothetical constructs based on someone else being like him.
I’m not sure who I’d say was the most flamboyant, high profile player of Sourness’s era, but I can say with certainty that player was nothing like Pogba. Part of the problem I’d wager Souness has with Pogba specifically is his whole get up, praise and profile is alien to him - to replicate the grounds to test whether Souness’s issue is grounded in race, you’d need an equally flamboyant, white, high profile, social media star who is hailed as one of the best players in the world; given Pogba is unique, that’s not going to happen
Beckham is probably comparable to Pogba in terms of his type of uber celebrity (also accused of underachieving after a major international transfer). He got pelters at times too, but to my memory it wasn't as constant as it seems to be with Pogba. Although there was never a question about Beckham's workrate on the pitch.
We could see something like it with Grealish I reckon, City want to turn him into their Beckham. He's got that kind of arrogance on the pitch, likes to hold onto the ball, not the greatest defensive contributor, and he has a similar, if less flamboyant, style of public engagement. And he's another British record transfer. It's a reasonable comparison, at least.
I don’t think that’s a fully true statement
You might be right about grealish after joining a ‘big’ team for a big price. The stick will come if he doesn’t produce,
i think if Beckham played nowadays it would be comparable. When I think of some of the stuff he got criticised for not just by his own fans but also others; dating posh, hairstyles, fashion styles, marrying posh, having his wife called a whore, getting his effigy hung from a lamppost and so on.
I see your point and I do think Pogbas flamboyant nature is part of what riles Souness. But what about Foden and his Gascoigne hair? Grealish is also rather flamboyant. Not a peep about them.
For whatever reason, Sourness has a massive resentment against Pogba. Sourness is a massive cnut, full of his own self importance. (Still can't believe he said "my former team" rather than Liverpool).
He's not a racist, he's a very naughty boy.
He's not a racist, he's a very naughty boy.
Who was it that complained about Pogba getting haircuts regularly? I remember many people mentioning that the likes of Maddison and many other players continuously perfect hairdo didn't happen magically.
Important to note that one can entertain a racially prejudiced thought without being a racist. Most people will have done this at least once throughout the course of their life.
Still, it's important to catch these thoughts when they come without fear of being called a racist. Because left unchecked they can influence words and actions, to the point of full-blown racist behaviour.
Mental how there is a 76-page thread about this guy on here
Who's the dude that's got Souness shit scared on the floor ?
Why do people take him seriously? He single handedly dismantled a dynasty in like two years. The Moyes of his time.