Gonzalo Higuain

Boss said:
Well you have to take into account that Kaka has had a few injuries over the years and he also has been playing in a Milan team which has been in heavy decline. All their key players, Gattusto, Seadorf and Pirlo are getting worse every year and only he and Pato were the ones on the same wavelength.

Even with all this Kaka has maintained his quality in big games over the last few years and has been a key reason why Brazil are looking like world beaters once again. Iniesta is an amazing footballer but Kaka is the better player in my opinion. He will prove that this season.
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Nope, Kaka's last best season was 06/07. Ronaldo overall 06/07 was easily better except the brazilian had the luck to try his pyrotechniques against a third string United defence and a rubbish Liverpool in the finals.

After 06/07 they got hold of Pato along with Fat Ronaldo yet Kaka was only good in patches he has played only six or seven so called outstanding matches through out the whole of 07/08 and much worse last season as he was no where in the reckoning even for the Calcio awards.

Many of you lot tend to overrate him after he got shortlisted as the five best players of 2008 was also an absoulte farce, for the start he didnt do any thing great in the Serie A not even as consistent to the level of Lavezzi forget about Del Piero or Zlatan and hardly played for Brazil in the internationals and neither Brazil did much, yet he some how slipped in the top five. This year he has shown some form in the internationals but his club form partly due to a declining Milan is far from convincing.

I would say Iniesta of now was easily as good as Kaka of 03-05 and unlike the Brazilian the Spainard can only get better.
 
Ekeke said:
Where have I said he wasnt brilliant helping Barcelona keep the ball and doing great work in the middle? In fact I swear I pointed that out. But when he's the free man in a midfield 3 he should also be scoring a fair amount of goals and invading the box setting up others too. He did little of that before the last 10 games of the season.

3 assists and 2 goals in 17 matches by Feb for Barcelona who were toying with all comers just goes to show that much of his turns and dribbles in central areas came to nothing in front of goal.
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He's not that kind of Lampard player that gets all these goals, he actually plays quite deep, he's admitted scoring goals is one of his weaknesses. If this is how you measure how great a central player is I really think you're missing out. Do you remember how Zidane used to play? Iniesta reminds me a bit of him.

Alot of the time Xavi was even playing further ahead of Iniesta as Pep promised him he would play further up the pitch for the first time in years. He likes to play deep and control games. Goals is just the icing on the cake.
 
Ekeke said:
Where have I said he wasnt brilliant helping Barcelona keep the ball and doing great work in the middle? In fact I swear I pointed that out. But when he's the free man in a midfield 3 he should also be scoring a fair amount of goals and invading the box setting up others too. He did little of that before the last 10 games of the season.

3 assists and 2 goals in 17 matches by Feb for Barcelona who were toying with all comers just goes to show that much of his turns and dribbles in central areas came to nothing in front of goal.
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Barcelona played 4-3-3 with Henry, Eto and Messi upfront and their full backs constantly overlapping the midfielders on the inside right and left positions.

There is nothing called as a free man in a midfield of three, even Xavi is slack in defending and Barca style is all about playing possession football with two midfielders pulling the strings behind three attackers and two full backs. How many goals did Xavi actually score through out last season if you ignore the freekicks?
 
vijay said:
Nope, Kaka's last best season was 06/07. Ronaldo overall 06/07 was easily better except the brazilian had the luck to try his pyrotechniques against a third string United defence and a rubbish Liverpool in the finals.

After 06/07 they got hold of Pato along with Fat Ronaldo yet Kaka was only good in patches he has played only six or seven so called outstanding matches through out the whole of 07/08 and much worse last season as he was no where in the reckoning even for the Calcio awards.

Many of you lot tend to overrate him after he got shortlisted as the five best players of 2008 was also an absoulte farce, for the start he didnt do any thing great in the Serie A not even as consistent to the level of Lavezzi forget about Del Piero or Zlatan and hardly played for Brazil in the internationals and neither Brazil did much, yet he some how slipped in the top five. This year he has shown some form in the internationals but his club form partly due to a declining Milan is far from convincing.

I would say Iniesta of now was easily as good as Kaka of 03-05 and unlike the Brazilian the Spainard can only get better.
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It's all subjective really. I don't overrate Kaka, I follow Milan alot so I have seen him play alot of times in the last few years and for me he is the perfect attacker when teams play to his strengths. He has all the attributes, decision making,speed,strength,vision. It is no wonder Milan are looking like relegation battlers since he has left.

Like I've said he has had alot of injuries and this also hampered him last season for Milan and he has had to play under a declining team. This year you will see the true Kaka because he is going to be playing with younger, faster players who are far more on his wavelength. Saying Iniesta is as good as Kaka 03-05 is strictly an opinion. For me they are different players anyway, Iniesta plays deeper whilst Kaka is about finding the quickest route toward goal.
 
vijay said:
Barcelona played 4-3-3 with Henry, Eto and Messi upfront and their full backs constantly overlapping the midfielders on the inside right and left positions.

There is nothing called as a free man in a midfield of three, even Xavi is slack in defending and Barca style is all about playing possession football with two midfielders pulling the strings behind three attackers and two full backs. How many goals did Xavi actually score through out last season if you ignore the freekicks?
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He set up the most (12 I think it was) and scored 9 overall whilst tending to play deeper and offering more shape to the Barcelona side.

He was better than Iniesta last season especially until the last 10 games of the season where Iniesta became more of a match winner than he had been.

Boss said:
He's not that kind of Lampard player that gets all these goals, he actually plays quite deep, he's admitted scoring goals is one of his weaknesses. If this is how you measure how great a central player is I really think you're missing out. Do you remember how Zidane used to play? Iniesta reminds me a bit of him.

Alot of the time Xavi was even playing further ahead of Iniesta as Pep promised him he would play further up the pitch for the first time in years. He likes to play deep and control games. Goals is just the icing on the cake.
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Goals and goals set up are an aspect of an attacking midfielder's responsibilities and one that Iniesta lacked in until the end of the season where he stepped it up a notch.

They are not the most important thing, but they are one thing a player with the talents of Iniesta, or Silva, should be providing semi-regularly. Instead its still to be added to their games. I'd be surprised if Iniesta doesnt do that in the next season or two because he could easily get you 8-10 goals and more assists than that a season with his talents and the positions he finds himself in.
 
Ekeke said:
He set up the most (12 I think it was) and scored 9 overall whilst tending to play deeper and offering more shape to the Barcelona side.

He was better than Iniesta last season especially until the last 10 games of the season where Iniesta became more of a match winner than he had been.
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Did you actually watch Barca games as you came to this conclusion or just took a glance at the Statistics? You are seriously undermining Iniesta's contributions last season, goals and assists are not the be all of everything or Zidane would not be rated as highly as he was. Iniesta dictates play as the stats come second to him. He is not a 'match winner', that is left to the Messi's, Eto'os and Henrys. Don't judge how well he played based on that
 
Ekeke said:
He set up the most (12 I think it was) and scored 9 overall whilst tending to play deeper and offering more shape to the Barcelona side.

He was better than Iniesta last season especially until the last 10 games of the season where Iniesta became more of a match winner than he had been.



Goals and goals set up are an aspect of an attacking midfielder's responsibilities and one that Iniesta lacked in until the end of the season where he stepped it up a notch.

They are not the most important thing, but they are one thing a player with the talents of Iniesta, or Silva, should be providing semi-regularly. Instead its still to be added to their games. I'd be surprised if Iniesta doesnt do that in the next season or two because he could easily get you 8-10 goals and more assists than that a season with his talents and the positions he finds himself in.
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First Iniesta is not a great shooter, he has admitted that it is a weakness in his game. Also how often does he find himself in these postions you speak of? He is not a midfielder in the Lampard,Kaka sense of the word.

I don't think anybody can call Iniesta an attacking midfielder in reality, he is a central midfielder. He may do the work before the final ball but it is still essential in the team winning. He hardly gives the ball way, makes the right passes etc.He plays quite deep, you are speaking like you have not seen him play before.
 
Barcelona were the team I watched the second most amount of games last season in La Liga. I watched every Valencia game which is the only reason.

You need to go back and read what I've actually said. At no point have I said or insinuated that goals and goals created are the most important part of a central midfielder's contribution. At no point have I said that Iniesta provided nothing aside from his goals and those he created.

But in a midfield 3 where the other two are Toure who tends to sit and Xavi who sits for the majority of the time, but does go now and again - Iniesta tends to find himself furthest forward and as that player it is one of his responsibilities to impact the scoresheet. One of them. Not the only one. Not the most important one. But one of his responsibilities and one that he didnt deliver on till the last section of the season.

He had lots of brilliant passing in the middle of the pitch, lots of nice dribbling on the flank, lots of nice twists and turns past opposing midfields. But in terms of productivity alone, Iniesta didnt deliver as much as he should have.
 
Ekeke said:
Barcelona were the team I watched the second most amount of games last season in La Liga. I watched every Valencia game which is the only reason.

You need to go back and read what I've actually said. At no point have I said or insinuated that goals and goals created are the most important part of a central midfielder's contribution. At no point have I said that Iniesta provided nothing aside from his goals and those he created.

But in a midfield 3 where the other two are Toure who tends to sit and Xavi who sits for the majority of the time, but does go now and again - Iniesta tends to find himself furthest forward and as that player it is one of his responsibilities to impact the scoresheet. One of them. Not the only one. Not the most important one. But one of his responsibilities and one that he didnt deliver on till the last section of the season.

He had lots of brilliant passing in the middle of the pitch, lots of nice dribbling on the flank, lots of nice twists and turns past opposing midfields. But in terms of productivity alone, Iniesta didnt deliver as much as he should have.
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But this is wrong though, if you noticed alot of the time Xavi played further up than Iniesta because Pep wanted a change of direction with him, realizing he can be far more devastating further up the pitch than he has been utilized for most of his career in Barca. He did not sit for the majority of the time like he used to under Rijkaard so this assumption about Iniesta being furthest forward all the time is basically wrong. What do you think of Zidane's productivity then? Iniesta had a role in the Barca team and the aspects you are focusing on were not key to that.

Have a quick look at Xavi's assists from last season, there is no way he was sitting most of the time. He was relishing this new role Pep gave him.

 
Xavi went forward no more than Iniesta did. So if Xavi can do this why not Iniesta? There's no excuse really. His return was extremely average and Iniesta is capable of a lot more than that.

Where's the video of Iniesta's goals and assists 08/09?
 
Ekeke said:
Xavi went forward no more than Iniesta did. So if Xavi can do this why not Iniesta? There's no excuse really. His return was extremely average and Iniesta is capable of a lot more than that.

Where's the video of Iniesta's goals and assists 08/09?
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Well firstly Xavi was further up the pitch than Iniesta overall and like I said these statistics come second to Iniesta. He was working from deep, doing great dirbbles, plays, one-two passes, never giving the ball away ,his role was vital in Barca's success.

You are really undermining his brilliance which is fair enough, sometimes fans only recognize how great you are when you get these 'stats' even though you have been playing brilliant for years. It can be argued this is what has happend to Xavi a bit last year. You really don't get to appreciate an individuals football when you concentrate on these things.

Productivity can mean allot of other things you know. What you are saying is a fair criticism, Ancelotti even said the same about Zidane but you are focusing way too much on it because that is not what is central to Iniesta's game.
 

This is a standard game for Iniesta, look how deep he plays, he may not get the assists or goals but that does not change the fact he is having world class games, controlling proceedings, passing wisely, keeping possession and helping to launch attacks from deep. This is what I mean by there are others ways of measuring productivity, he is vital to Barcelona,if you concentrate on goals and assists you really do miss out on how great this player is and what he brings to the team.
 
I love Iniesta. I'm a fan. The way he can out-pass and out-think opposing teams is for me more magical than Messi and Ronaldo's bursts of brilliance.
 
Nah he wasnt. Iniesta was in and around the box a lot of times last season. Playing in central midfield with 2 who covered him and also a bunch of times playing up front in a front 3. He's just not that productive and its something that he will certainly work on in the next few seasons. To consistantly come up with the goods at a good rate for someone of his ability.

I had the same complaint about Xavi at the euros. Although to be fair, he was playing way further away from the goal (and in a two, but anyway). He came back to Barcelona and obviously Pep agreed with me because he did push him further forward than he had been before (still less than Iniesta on the balance) and he did make sure to produce the goods last season.

I'm inclined to believe Pep will be looking for Iniesta to improve in the same way as he has the freedom to do this in the Barcelona side and he often finds himself in good positons around the box, areas he could use to directly impact the scoreline.



Its hard to believe this is a player who only managed 3 assists and 2 goals by the end of Feb. After his last section of the season he finished with 4 goals and 9 assists which is miles better. He can still do more, but thanks to the way he ended the season its a lot more respectable for someone like him.

By the way I was wrong about Xavi. He managed 16 assists and 6 goals. Think thats the most assists in La Liga for a long time.
 
Messi can't outpass or outhink his opponents?

First time I've heard that.
 
Ekeke said:
Nah he wasnt. Iniesta was in and around the box a lot of times last season. Playing in central midfield with 2 who covered him and also a bunch of times playing up front in a front 3. He's just not that productive and its something that he will certainly work on in the next few seasons. To consistantly come up with the goods at a good rate for someone of his ability.

I had the same complaint about Xavi at the euros. Although to be fair, he was playing way further away from the goal (and in a two, but anyway). He came back to Barcelona and obviously Pep agreed with me because he did push him further forward than he had been before (still less than Iniesta on the balance) and he did make sure to produce the goods last season.

I'm inclined to believe Pep will be looking for Iniesta to improve in the same way as he has the freedom to do this in the Barcelona side and he often finds himself in good positons around the box, areas he could use to directly impact the scoreline.



Its hard to believe this is a player who only managed 3 assists and 2 goals by the end of Feb. After his last section of the season he finished with 4 goals and 9 assists which is miles better. He can still do more, but thanks to the way he ended the season its a lot more respectable for someone like him.

By the way I was wrong about Xavi. He managed 16 assists and 6 goals. Think thats the most assists in La Liga for a long time.
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We're just going to have to agree to disagree. I doubt Pep would change anything about the way Iniesta plays because what he does it vital to the team despite how many stats he racks up. Iniesta was not consistently in and around the box like you say and I doubt I can change your mind on that so I'll just leave it at that.

Iniesta's main weakness is that he is not the best shot taker like I said that comes second to his game but as long as he puts in world class performances like he did for the majority of last season and the seasons before nobody can really complain. Watching him play and control games is like Art, for the goals and assists Pep was looking toward Messi,Henry,Eto'o and Xavi (who was employed further up the pitch than ever before) for all that. These stats are just iceing on the cake for Iniesta.
 
Brwned said:
Messi can't outpass or outhink his opponents?

First time I've heard that.
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But Iniesta is better in this aspect. He's like an artist in the centre of the football pitch. He embodies the Barcelona brand of football.
 
How about when Iniesta played up front? On the balance of things he was certainly further forward than Xavi last season.

Also :

Iniesta's league stats last season.

2 goals, 3 assists in 17 matches till the end of feb.

2 goals, 6 assists in his final 9 matches after feb.

As I said, he came into his own as more of a match winner in the last stretch of the season. Something he has the talent and freedom to do more often than he did last season. If he does it for more than 3 months this season he can certainly come up with around 8 goals and 10+ assists. Thats definately not beyond him.
 
AttackingFlair said:
He also has his own bursts of brilliance too.
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True. But in terms of goal threat he doesn't compare yet to the other two. But in terms of his position he does just as good a job out thinking out passing opposition midfielders. He taught us a proper lesson.

vijay said:
I am planning to chemically castrate amol now

where is frankly when we need him the most.
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:boring:
 
amolbhatia100 said:
True. But in terms of goal threat he doesn't compare yet to the other two. But in terms of his position he does just as good a job out thinking out passing opposition midfielders. He taught us a proper lesson.


:boring:
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The lesson was to play more than 2 players right up against Iniesta, Xavi and Busquets. Shouldnt have been a lesson we needed teaching.
 
Ekeke said:
The lesson was to play more than 2 players right up against Iniesta, Xavi and Busquets. Shouldnt have been a lesson we needed teaching.
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Far too simplistic. We come up against all kinds of formations and win. They were just too for us. It's not very hard to admit. Iniesta in that form would have run rings around us had we put 4 in midfield, probably. (ok, maybe not)
 
Ekeke said:
How about when Iniesta played up front? On the balance of things he was certainly further forward than Xavi last season.

Also :

Iniesta's league stats last season.

2 goals, 3 assists in 17 matches till the end of feb.

2 goals, 6 assists in his final 9 matches after feb.

As I said, he came into his own as more of a match winner in the last stretch of the season. Something he has the talent and freedom to do more often than he did last season. If he does it for more than 3 months this season he can certainly come up with around 8 goals and 10+ assists. Thats definately not beyond him.
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The one thing about Iniesta is he rarely shoots. On top of rarely making the final pass himself. He is more often than not creating play and making space around the edge of the 18, for either Xavi, Henry or Messi to administer the coupe de grace final pass for a goal.
 
Can't agree he's better at it at all. Not sure too many others would either, besides AttackingFlair, but then he's an Iniesta fanboy.

You could make a case about him embodying Barcelona's football more through his workrate and Catalan spirit but not by what he does with the ball, IMO.
 
Ekeke said:
The lesson was to play more than 2 players right up against Iniesta, Xavi and Busquets. Shouldnt have been a lesson we needed teaching.
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And the lesson that none of our midfielders are in the same league as him.
 
amolbhatia100 said:
True. But in terms of goal threat he doesn't compare yet to the other two. But in terms of his position he does just as good a job out thinking out passing opposition midfielders. He taught us a proper lesson.


:boring:
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Me and frankly are going around kindergarten all over Aberdeen, to promote Messi, and probably tour some of those kids around our board. Posts like this would ruin the entire purpose of football discussions.

Delete and go away..
 
Brwned said:
Can't agree he's better at it at all. Not sure too many others would either, besides AttackingFlair, but then he's an Iniesta fanboy.

You could make a case about him embodying Barcelona's football more through his workrate and Catalan spirit but not by what he does with the ball, IMO.
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He is. He can run football matches. His awareness of his surroundings, weight of pass and timing his actions is immaculate. Messi is a better dribbler and probably quicker IMO.

Why can't you make a case for him? Barcelona are all about the short intricate passing game based on keep it till the opposition age and die. And he's awesome at that.
 
amolbhatia100 said:
True. But in terms of goal threat he doesn't compare yet to the other two. But in terms of his position he does just as good a job out thinking out passing opposition midfielders. He taught us a proper lesson.


:boring:
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I see what you're trying to say but I think you are wrong. Messi is so complete that he does all these jobs aswell as score goals. Iniesta is an amazing level but Messi is just a level above.
 
vijay said:
Me and frankly are going around kindergarten all over Aberdeen, to promote Messi, and probably tour some of those kids around our board. Posts like this would ruin the entire purpose of football discussions.

Delete and go away..
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You bore me with your attempted humour, if that's what your attempting.
 
amolbhatia100 said:
He is. He can run football matches. His awareness of his surroundings, weight of pass and timing his actions is immaculate. Messi is a better dribbler and probably quicker IMO.

Why can't you make a case for him? Barcelona are all about the short intricate passing game based on keep it till the opposition age and die. And he's awesome at that.
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Everything you described is integral to Messi's game as well. Unbelievable as it sounds, it is actually true.
 
amolbhatia100 said:
Far too simplistic. We come up against all kinds of formations and win. They were just too for us. It's not very hard to admit. Iniesta in that form would have run rings around us had we put 4 in midfield, probably. (ok, maybe not)
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They had 3 players passing around our 2 players trying to stop them. Had we been playing Burnley we might have got away with that. But playing the best midfield passing side on the planet, it was more than a little naive.

Now if Giggs was supposed to be back making it a 3, then that would have made a lot more sense. But instead he was getting as far forward as possible and supporting the striker, hardly ever getting back to help defend. He was at least 20 yards too far forwards.

In the end, with Messi dropping deep, we ended up with 4 Barcelona players cutting through our 2 central midfielders with ease. Either our tactics went wrong and players werent playing where they were told to, or they were naive tactics that left us exposed in Barcelona's strongest area.
 
Boss said:
I see what you're trying to say but I think you are wrong. Messi is so complete that he does all these jobs aswell as score goals. Iniesta is an amazing level but Messi is just a level above.
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Fair enough. We're all entitled to our opinions.

But for example i haven't seen Messi out class teams from deeper the way Zidane used to. I see that in Iniesta.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
The one thing about Iniesta is he rarely shoots. On top of rarely making the final pass himself. He is more often than not creating play and making space around the edge of the 18, for either Xavi, Henry or Messi to administer the coupe de grace final pass for a goal.
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31 shots in the league last season. Only 14 on target, but enough to have scored more than 4 goals last season.
 
Ekeke said:
They had 3 players passing around our 2 players trying to stop them. Had we been playing Burnley we might have got away with that. But playing the best midfield passing side on the planet, it was more than a little naive.

Now if Giggs was supposed to be back making it a 3, then that would have made a lot more sense. But instead he was getting as far forward as possible and supporting the striker, hardly ever getting back to help defend. He was at least 20 yards too far forwards.

In the end, with Messi dropping deep, we ended up with 4 Barcelona players cutting through our 2 central midfielders with ease. Either our tactics went wrong and players werent playing where they were told to, or they were naive tactics that left us exposed in Barcelona's strongest area.
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I agree with all of that. I just think that even in the way he played the game was a lesson to our players.
 
Brwned said:
Can't agree he's better at it at all. Not sure too many others would either, besides AttackingFlair, but then he's an Iniesta fanboy.

You could make a case about him embodying Barcelona's football more through his workrate and Catalan spirit but not by what he does with the ball, IMO.
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I'd say they're on a similar level.
 
Ekeke said:
31 shots in the league last season. Only 14 on target, but enough to have scored more than 4 goals last season.
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You cant be serious. You really think he is so good at shooting that 14 shots on target in a 50 game season would have got him more than 4 goals?

The 31 shots alone should tell you he rarely shoots. Bearing in mind he starts most of Barca's games.
 
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