Get rid of VAR NOW! We want our game back! (...or not, some are happy)

[wub1234]

First bolded part: I imagine they were delighted until it got ruled out, and afterwards they were disappointed but could understand it because it was the right call. VAR does not stop people from celebrating goals in the moment, you just have to accept that in some cases it will (99% of the times correctly) be ruled out. Is that so hard?

It doesn't make a huge amount of difference to me because I don't go to games that often, and I'm not a passionate supporter of any team.

I'm simply pointing out that VAR does fundamentally change the experience of the match-going supporter, as you have acknowledged, because elsewhere other people (perhaps not you) are claiming that it won't change this at all.

We already know this anyway because cricket has implemented DRS for some years, and it has changed the experience for people who attend cricket, as you never know whether a wicket is legitimate, or not.

The difference is that football is a highly passionate sport, with a particularly strong supporting culture, and also that there are only a handful of goal-related incidents in a game. That's what makes football special; the basic aim of the game is difficult to achieve. It's why there is an explosion of joy when a goal is scored, because it's such a rare and unpredictable event.

How can there be the same explosion of joy when you know that every single goal will be checked by VAR, and that any goal with the remotest suggestion of offside could easily be ruled out?

I was an advocate of VAR, but having seen how it is currently being implemented, it's hard to argue in favour of it, as it simply ruins the experience for match-going supporters in particular. It kills the spontaneity of the game, and takes the immediacy and potency out of the most joyful part of the game.

That's why some people are against it, even though it results in better decision-making. I'm not saying that it can't work, but when DRS was implemented in cricket, it needed some tinkering and the authorities had to consider the spirit of the game. I'm sure this can be achieved in football, but as it stands now it's hard for me to support it.

As I've mentioned previously, the point of VAR should be to eliminate the terrible refereeing decision, the 'howler' that is clearly, emphatically wrong. Not to nitpick and look for the most microscopic error, some of which are even debatable, in every single goal that is scored.

DRS has been implemented in cricket with this principle in mind, and it now works very well. It's even more important that this occurs in football because there are 40 wickets in a test match, and maybe 100 appeals, whereas there might only be a handful of major goal-related incidents in a football match. And there is no way that the system should be ruling on such marginal offside decisions as it's not fit-for-purpose, and still requires some human judgement.

 

[Anustart89]

I was in the south stand yesterday - between the players' families and the directors boxes - and I didn't celebrate Rashford's brilliant second goal because I was convinced when Pogba played that clip over the top that Rashy was half-a-yard offside.

This is why I HATE VAR.

You can't live in the moment. You have to just put your fingernail in your mouth after a close-run goal like that is scored and then just wait... and wait..and wait while the ref sticks his finger in his ear, has a conversation with some guy in a truck and then finally points his hand to the half-way line to signal goal is allowed. Then, instead of celebrating like a hyper monkey, jumping up and down and hugging the bloke next to you, you just clench your fist and sit down.

VAR ruins fan enjoyment of the game.. we can't even celebrate goals because we know there is a guy in a truck somewhere looking back it it on replays before the referee can allow the goal. feck that.

Would you rather have the linesman guessing that he was offside then and lifting his flag? Because chances are he would have done that considering how tight it was and that he was offside fractions of a second later.

 

[Anustart89]

See Man City's last-gasp goal against Spurs in the CL last season... GOAL - wild celebration - 30 seconds later utter despair because it's disallowed.

You’re forgetting that there are two teams on the pitch. Imagine being a spurs supporter in that scenario. You think that they didn’t celebrate wildly?

 

[cyberman]

You’re forgetting that there are two teams on the pitch. Imagine being a spurs supporter in that scenario. You think that they didn’t celebrate wildly?

He has a very ironic username don't you think?

 

[ivaldo]

Well, this has already happened. Man City had an injury-time Champions League knockout stage winner ruled out by VAR. Can you really imagine that their supporters enjoyed this 'goal'?

I'm not against VAR, but I don't see how anyone can disagree with the assertion that it changes the relationship between supporters and the game. I'm not a United fan, but when Rashford scored his second goal yesterday, I thought it was an excellent goal, and then I instantly reflected that it might not be a goal at all. You just don't know, there's no way of knowing.

It's not even like cricket where you generally have a fairly good idea of whether a wicket is LBW, caught, etc, at least while watching on TV. You just have no idea whether a goal is a goal or not, particularly with offsides. If they're going to give decisions as marginal as the Sterling one then supporters will never again know whether any goal that is remotely close to being offside is legitimate or not.

Obviously this is going to change the nature of attending the games. You're either not going to celebrate goals until they're awarded by VAR, and lose the intensity of the moment, or many, many celebrations are going to turn out to have been premature and pointless. Either way, it's going to leave a bit of a sour taste for partisan fans in the ground, even though it will result in more correct decisions.

I would still like to see a challenge system, as implemented in cricket, tennis and American football. This then puts the onus back on the managers. They're always moaning about the number of terrible decisions, well if you're that confident then you can challenge them at the time. And if you've used up your challenges then you have nothing to complain about, and you only have yourself to blame.

And that game is considered a highlight of the champions league. Why? Because jeopardy is good for sport. It's a cornerstone of that makes a game so engaging. It's odd that with VAR, this almost universally accepted fact somehow is being turned into a negative.

I celebrated it as fully as I would any goal scored last season, then I waited with baited breath, and celebrated it again when the confirmation came through.

I would say it's significantly harder in cricket to get those decisions right on first or even second viewing. We have absolutely no way of knowing the trajectory of the ball after impact, and rely fully on the technology to tell us. Even then many decisions will ultimately fall back to it being the umpire's decision.

Is this a new thing? Did we not have fans celebrating goals last season that were ruled out? Dod we not have fans celebrating goals that hit the side netting. Did we not have referees consulting with their linesman before giving a decision? Did any of this detract from the overall enjoyment of a game? Remember, it might leave a sour taste for one fan, but it'll taste just as sweet for another.

 

[711]

I was in the south stand yesterday - between the players' families and the directors boxes - and I didn't celebrate Rashford's brilliant second goal because I was convinced when Pogba played that clip over the top that Rashy was half-a-yard offside.

This is why I HATE VAR.

You can't live in the moment. You have to just put your fingernail in your mouth after a close-run goal like that is scored and then just wait... and wait..and wait while the ref sticks his finger in his ear, has a conversation with some guy in a truck and then finally points his hand to the half-way line to signal goal is allowed. Then, instead of celebrating like a hyper monkey, jumping up and down and hugging the bloke next to you, you just clench your fist and sit down.

VAR ruins fan enjoyment of the game.. we can't even celebrate goals because we know there is a guy in a truck somewhere looking back it it on replays before the referee can allow the goal. feck that.

I was there too and felt exactly the same. Just spent too much of the match looking at the boards waiting for VAR to come up.

Also, and not using this as an argument against VAR, I was irritated by wankers in the crowd shouting VAR for every perceived wrong call on a throw in, but that's wankers in the crowd for you, they'll always be there I suppose.

 

[NinjaFletch]

I have to admit arguing against VAR because it rightly ruled out a Manchester City goal and knocked them out of the champions league is fecking bizarre.

Even more so to do it on a Manchester United forum.

 

[acnumber9]

That’s how they determine the furthest forward part of the body and testing it vertically. They’re still relying on cameras that aren’t in line from what I can tell. Maybe they aren’t but it’s not explained particularly well in that video.

 

[Havak]

It is literally just a case of 'get used to it'.

Other sports fans such as in Rugby or Tennis celebrate when they think they've won a 'score'. If the video replay correctly rules it out, oh well, you move on. As time goes on, fans will be more accepting. Yes, might might look a bit of a cock if you go wild and then the decision is reversed, but everyone will become accustomed to it eventually. It's better for the game, you'd moan far more at a wrong decision than you ever will at this. You just want to hate this because it is new. Give it time, not a day.

 

[Terminator]

I didn't celebrate Rashford's 2nd goal for a whole min thinking it would be flagged. Not a fault of VAR though, it's more a problem of getting used to it.

 

[wub1234]

I celebrated it as fully as I would any goal scored last season, then I waited with baited breath, and celebrated it again when the confirmation came through.

So, as I said, it completely changes the supporter experience. Other people are arguing here that it does not, when this is clearly ridiculous.

That's why there are people on this thread stating that they attended the game yesterday, and spent more time looking at a screen to see if VAR had awarded the goal than actually celebrating.

Just to mention something about cricket, while you are correct that some decisions in this sport are difficult to make, many wickets are completely straightforward. The batsman gets a clear edge to slip, nothing else can possibly have happened, and he has to walk off. Actually, decisions are going to be more contentious in football because literally any goal can be disallowed. You will never know with any confidence whatsoever in the ground whether or not a 'goal' will count, and you won't even be able to see footage of the incident, so you won't ever know why it has been ruled out or awarded.

It's entirely understandable that some match-going fans are against this.

 

[Aidan Azar]

Anyone post the Fabregas red card yet? Awful decision.

 

[ivaldo]

So, as I said, it completely changes the supporter experience. Other people are arguing here that it does not, when this is clearly ridiculous.

That's why there are people on this thread stating that they attended the game yesterday, and spent more time looking at a screen to see if VAR had awarded the goal than actually celebrating.

Just to mention something about cricket, while you are correct that some decisions in this sport are difficult to make, many wickets are completely straightforward. The batsman gets a clear edge to slip, nothing else can possibly have happened, and he has to walk off. Actually, decisions are going to be more contentious in football because literally any goal can be disallowed. You will never know with any confidence whatsoever in the ground whether or not a 'goal' will count, and you won't even be able to see footage of the incident, so you won't ever know why it has been ruled out or awarded.

It's entirely understandable that some match-going fans are against this.

Did I argue it didn't change the dynamic? I don't recall doing so.

And there are plenty of people stating the exact opposite. There's also a poll which shows, overwhelmingly, VAR is seen as a very good thing. The odd anecdote doesn't change that.

Many goals are straightforward as well. Just because they check VAR doesn't mean you can't celebrate with confidence. That's an individual thing. Most seem perfectly fine with it, and it doesn't detract from their individual enjoyment of goals and the game as a whole.

 

[MartinRed]

I'm ok with it , it is good for offsides and penalties but I'm afraid they are going to over exploit it at times like with Aguero's penalty.

 

[wub1234]

Did I argue it didn't change the dynamic? I don't recall doing so.

And there are plenty of people stating the exact opposite. There's also a poll which shows, overwhelmingly, VAR is seen as a very good thing. The odd anecdote doesn't change that.

Many goals are straightforward as well. Just because they check VAR doesn't mean you can't celebrate with confidence. That's an individual thing. Most seem perfectly fine with it, and it doesn't detract from their individual enjoyment of goals and the game as a whole.

You can't really celebrate with confidence because you cannot be confident in the ground that a goal will be awarded.

If you go back and watch the Leicester-Wolves game:



When the disallowed goal is scored at about 1:25, not one of the Leicester players even appeals to the officials. They just think it's a perfectly good goal, and walk back to the centre circle. So it's going to be very difficult, if not impossible, for supporters to know definitively that a goal is legitimate or not.

I'm ambivalent on VAR, I believe that it can be a good thing, and I was a supporter of it. But it should be there to prevent really bad mistakes, not review every single goal and try to find some reason that it shouldn't stand.

 

[Sambob]

You have to pick the lesser of two evils between the game losing some pace/fans being confused and the scenario where some teams will get relegated because of incorrect refereeing decisions, which I think happens every season. Its always so hard to take when you lose because of penalty that shouldnt have been along with an offside goal, if VAR guarantees that this never happens then I dont really care what the game loses.

 

[ivaldo]

You can't really celebrate with confidence because you cannot be confident in the ground that a goal will be awarded.

If you go back and watch the Leicester-Wolves game:



When the disallowed goal is scored at about 1:25, not one of the Leicester players even appeals to the officials. They just think it's a perfectly good goal, and walk back to the centre circle. So it's going to be very difficult, if not impossible, for supporters to know definitively that a goal is legitimate or not.

I'm ambivalent on VAR, I believe that it can be a good thing, and I was a supporter of it. But it should be there to prevent really bad mistakes, not review every single goal and try to find some reason that it shouldn't stand.

I mean, you're kind of disproving your own point here. The celebration and the reaction by the opposition was as normal here despite the goal going on to be disallowed...

 

[wub1234]

I mean, you're kind of disproving your own point here. The celebration and the reaction by the opposition was as normal here despite the goal going on to be disallowed...

Yes, so they are then completely robbed of that about two minutes later. The celebration was completely normal in the CL match that I mentioned. But it completely changes the match-going experience in particular, because neither of those match-winning goals counted, and the whole experience of being a supporter is negated.

That's what people are complaining about in this thread. I can understand that, although I don't go to many games myself.

 

[MsNuno]

It's not like we've never jumped up to celebrate a goal without noticing the linesman flag or the ref not to give it before VAR was a thing
My only issue is how long it took yesterday from dendonckers goal to the decision to not give the goal. Celebrating is spontaneous no one is going to sit on their hands to wait and see if it's given or not.

 

[ivaldo]

Yes, so they are then completely robbed of that about two minutes later. The celebration was completely normal in the CL match that I mentioned. But it completely changes the match-going experience in particular, because neither of those match-winning goals counted, and the whole experience of being a supporter is negated.

That's what people are complaining about in this thread. I can understand that, although I don't go to many games myself.

If it's robbed from one supporter it's then given to another. We still have the same drama, the same jeopardy (if not more), but it's applied differently.

It's confirmation bias from those who were already criticizing VAR. They won't consider the very real positives of VAR, and are only willing to discuss negatives, which the majority here think are wildly exaggerated.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

You have to pick the lesser of two evils between the game losing some pace/fans being confused and the scenario where some teams will get relegated because of incorrect refereeing decisions, which I think happens every season. Its always so hard to take when you lose because of penalty that shouldnt have been along with an offside goal, if VAR guarantees that this never happens then I dont really care what the game loses.

Speaking in hyperbole is unproductive. Teams are not relegated every season because of refereeing decisions.

It’s exceedingly rare that the worst teams in the league are not relegated. That’s the nature of a league.

My stance on VAR is that it places accuracy above viewing pleasure. It’s also messed up as it’s implementing rules that were written for the naked eye, and adjudicating on frame by frame emotion free after the fact video. The blending of these two things together is just stupid.

No proper terms of reference have been written. No think groups have convened to rewrite rules globally. The whole thing has just been smashed together. Different implementation in different associations. It’s just so pointless.

I’m very puritanical. I’d rather remove all TV incident-replays from the game, than have a full court VAR press baked in, in its current format.

The only VAR I’d accept is a perfect, AI real-time feed that the referee got. We don’t have the tech for that, and won’t have for a long time.

I love tech. I work in tech. But I’ve not seen a single use of tech in football where I’ve thought “That added to the experience”. I can’t see that ever being true either.

 

[sullydnl]

Yes, so they are then completely robbed of that about two minutes later. The celebration was completely normal in the CL match that I mentioned. But it completely changes the match-going experience in particular, because neither of those match-winning goals counted, and the whole experience of being a supporter is negated.

That's what people are complaining about in this thread. I can understand that, although I don't go to many games myself.

Actually people began by specifically arguing that fans would stop celebrating goals. You're arguing something different.

Also, I don't see how a disallowed goal negates the experience of being a supporter. The emotional experience still exists, it just has an extra turn at the end.

Plus, crucially, that goal was rightly disallowed, which I'm sure greatly pleased the Leicester supporters. Why concentrate on the dissapointment that VAR ultimately causes in one set of fans but ignore the joy it sparks in the other? Why would anyone expect Leicester supporters to forego their own joy and a fair result just so Wolves fans get to keep the joy they got from a goal that should never have been given? Or why would Spurs fans be expected to forgo the joy of a semi-final appearance just so City fans get to keep the joy of an offside goal?

 

[RK]

Sorry that I'm not replying to anyone that specifically replied to me but I think wub1234 covers a lot of my points.

Something I'd like to reiterate is that it's a weak argument to compare goal celebrations to other sports. Football is such a low scoring game and the intensity of a goal celebration is unique. Also from my experience the crowds tend to be more passionate and irrational. When Federer wins a point, you don't see the Queen bear-hugging strangers in the royal box, falling down a row of seats, throwing her illegal beer everywhere and generally going crazy.

I'd rather have wrong decisions that we've lived with for decades than have that raw emotion taken away from me, even at home. It's difficult to get my head around people claiming this doesn't affect them but I'll try. For those that it does affect, it will be a shame when VAR becomes familiar and accepted like this, and we lose that extra intensity forever.

 

[Reapersoul20]

Jesus, people are actually against VAR. I assumed it was a pisstake. For some reason, I feel like the people who oppose VAR are pro-brexit UKIP supporters.

I bet you there is a correlation.

 

[RK]

Also, I don't see how a disallowed goal negates the experience of being a supporter. The emotional experience still exists, it just has an extra turn at the end.

It's not as intense, for me. When something you do has punishment (emotional trauma of a disallowed goal), you're more likely to stop the behaviour that caused it (allowing the full joy of a goal).

Plus, crucially, that goal was rightly disallowed, which I'm sure greatly pleased the Leicester supporters. Why concentrate on the dissapointment that VAR ultimately causes in one set of fans but ignore the joy it sparks in the other? Why would anyone expect Leicester supporters to forego their own joy and a fair result just so Wolves fans get to keep the joy they got from a goal that should never have been given? Or why would Spurs fans be expected to forgo the joy of a semi-final appearance just so City fans get to keep the joy of an offside goal?

Similar answer. There's not the instantaneous intensity - not everyone is sure what's happening and you already know there's a reasonable chance it could be disallowed.

I'd be in favour of VAR if it was as instantaneous as a referee's whistle or a good assistant's flag. It shouldn't be used for fouls in the build up unless it can rule for ALL fouls, effectively replacing the ref.

 

[RobinLFC]

It's not as intense, for me. When something you do has punishment (emotional trauma of a disallowed goal), you're more likely to stop the behaviour that caused it (allowing the full joy of a goal).


Similar answer. There's not the instantaneous intensity - not everyone is sure what's happening and you already know there's a reasonable chance it could be disallowed.

I'd be in favour of VAR if it was as instantaneous as a referee's whistle or a good assistant's flag. It shouldn't be used for fouls in the build up unless it can rule for ALL fouls, effectively replacing the ref.

Oh come on

 

[Rafaeldagold]

You don't watch a lot of football, do you

I watch a lot of football. And the only really terrible decisions which can’t be subjective isn’t many

 

[Rafaeldagold]

imagine not celebrating goals anymore because they might get ruled out a few seconds later than they did before there was VAR. It's honestly the stupidest argument I've ever heard.

How is it stupid? Are you stupid?
Why would you go crazy celebrating knowing var could rule it out?
Your argument is stupid

 

[RK]

Oh come on

Come on, I'm being playful with the exact words.

 

[fergie_god]

I really can't comprehend how people are actually arguing that not being able to celebrate confidently is a reason for not having the rules of the game upheld.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Speaking in hyperbole is unproductive. Teams are not relegated every season because of refereeing decisions.

It’s exceedingly rare that the worst teams in the league are not relegated. That’s the nature of a league.

My stance on VAR is that it places accuracy above viewing pleasure. It’s also messed up as it’s implementing rules that were written for the naked eye, and adjudicating on frame by frame emotion free after the fact video. The blending of these two things together is just stupid.

No proper terms of reference have been written. No think groups have convened to rewrite rules globally. The whole thing has just been smashed together. Different implementation in different associations. It’s just so pointless.

I’m very puritanical. I’d rather remove all TV incident-replays from the game, than have a full court VAR press baked in, in its current format.

The only VAR I’d accept is a perfect, AI real-time feed that the referee got. We don’t have the tech for that, and won’t have for a long time.

I love tech. I work in tech. But I’ve not seen a single use of tech in football where I’ve thought “That added to the experience”. I can’t see that ever being true either.

Goal line technology has been. That’s because the response is instantaneous and not open to any kind of interpretation.

That should be the minimum standard which all subsequent tech in football must meet. Goes without saying that VAR falls woefully short of this.

 

[Hawks2008]

How is it stupid? Are you stupid?
Why would you go crazy celebrating knowing var could rule it out?
Your argument is stupid

So you've never celebrated a goal being scored before seeing the linesman's flag go up? It's not as if goals haven't been ruled out before so it's not so different.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

So you've never celebrated a goal being scored before seeing the linesman's flag go up? It's not as if goals haven't been ruled out before so it's not so different.

Everyone who’s ever been to a football match is used to that fraction of a second holding their breath while they glance at the linesman to check their flag stays down. That’s been part of parcel of football for decades. Completely different scenario to the lengthy confusion and uncertainty that happens whenever VAR is used.

 

[green demon]

I voted for in the poll but only just. At the moment the way it is done is too clunky and can detract from the game. I think it should only be used when it's a clear bad decision.

However I think each team should be given 2 chances to appeal a decision each half and retain them if proved right, like in tennis and cricket. Appeals are all to be made by the team captain and must only be for potential game changing decisions like goals, offsides or penalties. Eventually it will be smoother.

 

[RK]

So you've never celebrated a goal being scored before seeing the linesman's flag go up? It's not as if goals haven't been ruled out before so it's not so different.

It's completely different. You could tell it was ruled out almost straight away (the referee won't have signalled and the assistant won't have started running back down the pitch), usually before hitting the net. At worst I'd get to the top of my jump and halfway through a "yes" before reeling it back in, putting my hands on my head. It's a bit like a long range shot that you thought was going in hitting the post. The VAR process in comparison is a monstrosity.

 

[Rafaeldagold]

So you've never celebrated a goal being scored before seeing the linesman's flag go up? It's not as if goals haven't been ruled out before so it's not so different.

That very rarely happens. And is instant. Flag is up straight away. VAR could be minutes after.

EVERY goal is reviewed now for any potential small infringement .

It’s a shame as even when Dan James scores I half heartedly celebrated as thought it was possible var could bring it back to maguire incident 70 yards back

 

[Changeisgood]

VAR will get better, but is the best way to go. It is like basing your most important investment decision on outside sources. You would rather have all the possible information at your disposal even if it takes a little longer rather than on one guy who looked unsure at the time he shared his opinion.

 

[bleedred]

I didn’t celebrate rashfords goal. But I was the only one at the bar who felt that way. But as pogue said, whenever I had been at the stadium, a quick glance across the linesman would have been suffice to celebrate/not.

Whether the celebration denial is a valid argument or not, I don’t know. But there a lot of fans who feel that it ruins the celebrations and as the VAR continues on there will be more that would be cautious. Hey, maybe if you don’t feel that way, it ok. Celebrate away. But don’t deny that it ruins the moment for others.

 

[sjw2511]

Its is definitely ruining the game in the pursuit of getting 100% correct decisions, I'd much rather 95% correct decisions and a more enjoyable game.

 

[ForestRGoinUp]

Anything that helps refs make more correct decisions is a good thing.

Gotta start using it for throw ins and goal kicks/corners too. Anything for more right decisions.

Anything to get them from 92 to 98% accuracy.