Save Europe @do.ob
German Football 23/24 |
- Thread starter do.ob
- Start date
- Status
A great evening tonight, but also a little bittersweet. There can be so much energy in this stadium, enough to affect the players, but aside from today you would hardly ever have noticed it, because the team's football has killed off so much of the fan's enthusiasm.
Oh come off it! This is a great night, enjoy it for what it is and leave your negativity for tomorrow
Oh come off it! This is a great night, enjoy it for what it is and leave your negativity for tomorrow
Don't get me wrong, I'll keep fond memories of the game, but I guess I've just been to too many games this year where I felt like a fraction of that energy could have gone a long way, yet the football has made fans a bit apathetic.
I get your point, lets hope we can get some of it back soon
I believe you still need a new coach though. Are there any rumors or are you "stuck" with Terzic should you qualify for CL?I get your point, lets hope we can get some of it back soon
End of an era incoming... Makoto Hasebe will end his active career in the summer (age 40). A true legend in German football, has won the league, the cup and the Europa League, while playing for Wolfsburg and Frankfurt and not one of the usual big clubs. Always was a model professional and a humble man.
Whenever I read the name Hasebe I think "like that guy back from the day when Wolfsburg were champions"... yeah, it's him
Great game. I was wishing the semi final 2nd leg would be at Signa Iduna but found it would be in Paris.
I think German football is criminally underrated in this forum.
If the Bundesliga is as shite as most people on here believe then why are almost all of their teams doing well in Europe?
Bayern and Dortmund in the CL semis, Leverkusen in the EL semis, potentially winning it and even Leipzig really gave Real a challenge.
If the Bundesliga is as shite as most people on here believe then why are almost all of their teams doing well in Europe?
Bayern and Dortmund in the CL semis, Leverkusen in the EL semis, potentially winning it and even Leipzig really gave Real a challenge.
To be honest it is also a bit surprising.
Bayern doing well? Yes, that's on par with expectations
Dortmund going far in the CL? That's surprising after they used to bottle this kind of matches in recent seasons.
Leipzig? Have also performed on their expected level, not good enough to go far, but still a decent job.
Union Berlin? Let's not speak of them, they can be happy they participated in the CL and that's it.
Leverkusen? Really exceptional season, nobody would have expected it to be this great. On the other hand they reached the EL SF last season, so not that big of a surprise that they go so far again.
Freiburg? Oh well. Decent performance for a club of their size, but also nothing special?
Frankfurt? Useless bottlers this seasons
So in comparison to other seasons we only have two surprises in performances and they even out each other (Dortmund and Frankfurt). Usually we saw a lot more bottle jobs in recent seasons, so based on European performances it's understandable.
Also never forget in the case of this specific forum: What's really shite is "all players moving from the BL to United, so it has to be that the BL is shite!"
First of all we have no idea what the leadership at the club will even look like. We know that Watzke intends to step away from running the daily business and according to reports it seems all but guaranteed that Mislintat will return in some technical director role, but beyond that everything is up in the air as far as press reports go and the rumours reach from Kehl simply getting promoted to him getting passed over / sacked and even Zorc returning or Watzke postponing his retirement for another year in order to make sure it's a smooth transition rather than chaos.
Then there's the issue of alternatives:
- Klopp and Nagelsmann would be reasons to sack Terzic, no questions asked. But it doesn't look like they would be interested.
- Tuchel is Tuchel.
- Flick has a lot of question marks (huge contract? how good is he actually? would he even want it?)
Bundesliga coaches:
- Alonso obviously isn't available.
- Nephew of Uli just extended his contract, too.
- Streich is too tied to Freiburg / provincial.
- The rest are kind of mediocre. Hoffenheim, Frankfurt and Gladbach would be typical clubs to recruit from, but they are more likely to actually sack their coaches than not.
- Even Hürzeler, who would be an enormous gamble anyway, seems to intend to stay with St. Pauli over the summer.
A lot also depends on how Dortmund finish the season. If they actually make top four, e.g. by beating Leverkusen and Leipzig, on top of a CL semi final (or more, hehe), then it would be an incredibly principled call to sack him.
On the other hand getting outclassed against the plastics in the upcoming weeks that would really underline how he failed to meet the clubs standards.
Personally I don't think he's shown enough "methodical" football to stay on, but if the alternatives just aren't there and he finishes the season decently I would also understand if the club wouldn't sack him just for the sake of sacking him.
Nagelsmann staying at DFB. Does that really mean de Zerbi to Bayern? I kinda doubt it, but there hasn't really been any other speculation.
Tuchel will win the CL and get offered a new contract, he would be the logical choice
But Nagelsmann staying in the DFB job surprises me a lot I have to admit.
But Nagelsmann staying in the DFB job surprises me a lot I have to admit.
Wow.. what a surprise!
I mean I get why the DFB rather acted quickly here, but the Mannschaft has shown nothing that would merit this comittment.
I think most people also assumed that this was just an opportunistic job to pass the time between jobs for Nagelsmann.
And of course it also doesn't happen often that Bayern seem to commit to someone from Germany and not get him.
Hopefully he can build something after the Euros.
I'm aware that it's a lazy opinion, but I don't think it's a very good idea to appoint someone, who doesn't already speak German. It can work with someone from a neighbouring country (classics would be Dutch or Austrians), who sometimes already speak a little German, but some complete outsider is bound to make some (cultural) miss steps and won't be able to fully defend himself in the media. Of course if success is there no one will bat an eyelid, but it's not all sunshine all the time for coaches, is it?
Last edited:
De Zerbi is honestly the appointment I do not want to see. He's not a guaranteed hit but he very well could be a phenomenal coach with the right backing. Has the potential to be the best Bayern coach since Heynckes/Guardiola.
That would be a complete and utter declaration of failure and half the team would probably want to leave. So it's not completely unlikely...Tuchel will win the CL and get offered a new contract, he would be the logical choice
Let me put it more optimistically: there are no leaks and, fortunately, the press finally doesn't know what's going on.While only playing two friendlies, there was a lot of positive comments about what happened in March. Feels a bit like he discovered how he can really do this job well, and the team reacted very positively around it. So it definitely was intented just as an interim solution for him, but I think I get why he changed his mind.
Taking the Bayern job now after kicking some of their stars out of their national team and finally breaking with the eternal rule "Bayern's core is Germany's core" would probably have made both his start at Bayern difficult as well as the tournament itself.
He is a bit of "a character" and doesn't speak German... But his name is the only one really being floated in the media.
On a postive note Eberl successfully sealed the leak to the press.
They are totally in the dark who will be the next Bayern coach.
They are totally in the dark who will be the next Bayern coach.
Have you met Austrians who do not speak German? I mean they talk funny and it's hard to understand them, but still.
Not sure why you're quoting me, I never argued it will be a success and honestly couldn't care less if it flopped or not. I just pointed out your double standards.
95%+ of krypto/NFTs etc. are scam.
Actually - it seems that parts of the board did not seem to fond of this idea - what influenced Nagelsmann and Struth, too.
Thanks, Kalle (who likes a fine brand of "ball possession football" and I think cannot stand one bit of Struth... (Nagelsmann's and Kroos' manager)
Not quite the only one - that shiterag Bild doesn't get tired of trying to bring Zidane into the talk.
True and they also mentioned Rangnick. Both of whom I do not really see working at Bayern.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending that app or the krypto market in general and would be all for banning stuff like this from football entirely. My point is that currently 11 Bundesliga clubs are being sponsored by sports betting companies that annualy ruin existences on a scale krypto can only dream of and just like Tradar under the false pretense that you can earn money with your footballing knowdlege. And as far as I've seen, the Bundesliga itself and every single one of its clubs is also happily participating in EA's marketing machinerie that promotes all the newest EA FC content with the sole purpose of swindling underage fans into spending hundreds or even thousands of euros on unsellable digital collectibles that have a lifecycle of a few months. All that by subjecting minors to gambling mechanisms the law should actually protect them from but doesn't because of legal loopholes nobody seems to mind. That aside, it is quite ironic that this point is brought up by a fan of the only German club with shares being traded at the stock exchange. I wonder where this moral compass was when Dortmund had their IPO, effectively burning the savings of fans who only bought shares out of sentiment.
While I fundamentally agree with you, the Dortmund shares should be viewed differently for me. Fans have at least given their money to their club and not to some shady company. I've worked in finance for almost 20 years and have seen some truly appalling things. A call for more regulation to protect retail investors always resonates with me.
I see where you're coming from regarding Dortmund. I just think that when you have an IPO as a football club, it is clear that your shares will be bought by people who have no experience with the stock market and only do so out of sentiment and not objective reasoning. It is to be expected that the average shareholder won't fall as soft and probably hasn't managed his finances as carefully as it can be expected in case of other industries. If you then go ahead and pursue a very risky financial strategy on the transfer market, at the very least you've not been very caring or sensisble to their motivations. Of course you can argue that this is the responsibility of the shareholder himself but the founders of Tradar would probably argue the same, pointing to the risk disclosures every user agreed to. But as said, I see your point.
The stock market is still nothing like a crypto ponzi scheme.
Even betting isn't. Sports bets are a fair wager, some people can do it for profit. The problem is gambling addiction, not the product itself. The problem with plastic.coin was that the very core concept, that it's a scam..
Even betting isn't. Sports bets are a fair wager, some people can do it for profit. The problem is gambling addiction, not the product itself. The problem with plastic.coin was that the very core concept, that it's a scam..
The stock market is still nothing like a crypto ponzi scheme.
Even betting isn't. Sports bets are a fair wager, some people can do it for profit. The problem is gambling addiction. The problem with plastic.coin was that it's a ponzi scheme.
Your problem with plastic.coin was that it was supported by clubs you don't like. Your opinions are predictable and foregone conclusions.
Always with the ad hominem.
My problem was and is that the idea that some shitcoin's value is tied to a player's development or performances just because you name it after them is idiotic and thus the whole idea was a ponzi scheme. Which, by the way, we already saw play out when football index cost people a lot of money.
That on top. Definitely enough reasons not to go back now for Nagelsmann.
In a ponzi scheme, the scammer promises the first investor a return after a certain time and when he wants to see said return, the scammer pays him out with the money he received from a second investor and so forth. It breaks down once the influx of new investors breaks down because without fresh money, you can't pay out the last investor. That's fundamentally different from Tradar since Tradar legally doesn't owe the users one penny. Which means they don't have to become insolvent to eradicate any monetary claims against them, those claims simply don't exist. Moreover, with the platform being the only source of income they have, it only makes sense to shut it down if they burnt through their cash reserves before becoming profitable so they can no longer afford its operational costs. That aside, the token values are in fact tied to the real life players because the users are awarded with ticket discounts and similar incentives if the real life players perform well. You may argue it is a very loose connection and I agree but it is a connection.
And I'm becoming ad hominem because the double standards you display on this topic can only be explained with antipathy motivated ignorance. Honestly, this whole Tradar story is completely harmless in comparison to the betting industry, let alone what's happening in games like EA FC or Call of Duty. There are fourteen year olds who burn multiple thousands of Euros every year for EA FC. And not because they are dumb but because the operators of these games put algorithms that alter the pack "luck" to make them addicted to pack openings as soon as possible. And each Bundesliga club, let alone the league itself, can't wait to share all these fancy new player cards on their Instagram channels. You argue sports betting is somehwat okay to advertise because you theoretically can make profits from it? EA FC is basically operating a gambling hall for minors in which they have to pay to play the slot machines but have to leave their profits there because THAT would it make it illegal.
So it's not a Ponzi scheme, because Tradar doesn't owe anyone money, but also the tokens are tied to real life player values, because "someone" owes the owners returns, such as ticket discounts.
https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...sers-are-still-trying-to-get-their-money-back
I don't think anyone is happy about betting sponsors or EA's predatory practices, but you're just using them in order to deflect.
Last edited:
A Ponzi scheme works like that: You lend me €1000 for my brillant business and one year later, I'll give you €1500 back. During that year, I convince another friend to lend me €1000 and pay you your €1500 when it is due. I can keep this going until I run out of people to lend from. Then I declare insolvency and if I get away with it, the payment claims against me will be nullified. But when there are no payment claims against me (as in case of Tradar) why declare insolvency in the first place? They could just have kept selling tokens. Most likely, they just didn't sell enough of them to maintain a positive cash flow. Not all failed company are scams. Some are just shitty business ideas. Which sucks for the people who were dumb enough to buy tokens because now they possess tokens without any platform to trade them on. But as said, no Ponzi scheme. It is rather comparable with buying a smartphone in the early access of a crowd funding campaign and then the company behind it goes bankrupt, rendering the bought smartphone useless.
I guess technically, it could still have been a Ponzi scheme, though. But that would require that they scammed their venture capitalists/business angels. Which is not impossible but usually they aren't that dumb.
I have absolutely no issue with your criticism of Tradar as long as you aren't singeling out a few clubs when all of them happily accept money generated from worse practices. But your moral compass seems to be much more sensitive when there is a so called plastic club involved.
I'm aware how a Ponzi scheme works. You can say it's rather a pyramid scheme, because legally it may not be striaght up fraud, but that distinction makes little difference to me.
And what do you mean no payment claims when you wrote yourself:
" That aside, the token values are in fact tied to the real life players because the users are awarded with ticket discounts and similar incentives if the real life players perform well. "
Do you think those fall from the sky? We have literally seen the same model go bust in spectacular fashion with football index. The platform doesn't generate any money through players performing well, yet one of the main lures is that they will pay out based on players performing well. So the money, as well as operational costs, has to come from somewhere else: namely selling new tokens/"shares" to customers. And that's the pyramid scheme: new sales cover the obligations from old sales, once sales dry up they go bust.
Someone pitched these clubs "we want to copy that pyramid scheme that cost fans in losses in the 9 figure region. Want to help us sell it to your fans?" And they said yes, probably for a sum that's pocket change to them.
How can anyone not be disgusted at this behavior?
Back on topic, finally a decent match from Frankfurt again, now that they are under pressure to defend their 6th place. Terrible first half, but really turned it around well. Still a weird and bit disappointing season overall for them.
Congrats on playing CL next season, Frankfurt!
- Status