German Football 20/21

CookieMonster said:
No, not Nübel. I think Nübel might still become a decent goalkeeper for a different German club. But there is just no way Nübel becomes Bayern's #1. Neuer will still be playing for far too long for that.
I mean Germany's #1 goalkeeper after Ter Stegen's, probably rather short, time to shine. Four years, so one or two big tournaments, might be a good estimation for that. Who that goalkeeper might be exactly? No idea. But after the end of Kahn's career Bayern had a couple of seasons with Butt, Rensing and Kraft before they got Neuer. So things will probably be the same until a clear cut, future #1 goalkeeper for Germany shows himself in the Bundesliga.


As for Lewandowski's sucessor. Bayern will probably get a replacement whose about at the level that Mario Mandzukic, Roy Makaay, Giovanni Elber, Mario Gomez, Miro Klose and Luca Toni were at. Those were the big star players and centre forwards before Bayern got Lewandowski. And I agree, all of them, except for Mario Gomez, did a great job at Bayern and are remembered very fondly by the fans. Gomez did okay-ish, but he just didn't offer much except for his goalscoring.
But none of those players were as good as Lewandowski. None of those players was the worlds best centre forward for two seasons, in which he should have won the ballon d'or twice. And there's a dirty secret why that's the case. Bayern isn't big enough to consistently land the world's absolute best strikers. Bayern tried with Ruud Van Nistlerooy - but he just used Bayern to get better wages at Real and play in a squad with Ronaldo and Raul. Bayern just isn't willing to pay what it takes to get the absolute best strikers in the world, or the talents with a clear cut path to become the worlds best strikers, like Mbappe or Haaland. They lack the prestige of Real Madrid or Barcelona, or the endless pockets of PSG or Manchester City to do so. The primera division and premier league are also more attractive to top players than the Bundesliga.
So Bayern has to shop a shelf below the best of the best strikers - and they can therefore only land a player of Lewandowski's caliber with a huge amount of luck. And I doubt Bayern will have that much Dusel two times in a row.
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Historically, Barcelona isn't a bigger club than Bayern neither it has more prestige, but they pay higher wages than Bayern, and spanish weather it's attractive.
And also Barcelona have way more followers than Bayern because spanish is the third most spoken language around the world after english and chinese.
 
unplayable said:
€45m?! Even for West Ham that seems insane.
Have stupid do you have to be to turn that down? :eek:
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It's hard to imagine now, but at the time Serdar had just given his debut for die Mannschaft and done really well in Bundesliga. He was probably worth €30m realistically and Schalke were probably still hoping to make top four. It looks a lot more crazy now than it did at the time.
 
do.ob said:
It's hard to imagine now, but at the time Serdar had just given his debut for die Mannschaft and done really well in Bundesliga. He was probably worth €30m realistically and Schalke were probably still hoping to make top four. It looks a lot more crazy now than it did at the time.
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I always forget that they actually looked like they could potentially qualify for the CL not long ago. It's really hard to imagine that at the moment. :D

edit:Also surely that West Ham offer is bullshit. January 2020 is when they signed Soucek on loan because they didn't have the money to buy him straight away or am I remembering it wrong?
 
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do.ob said:
It's hard to imagine now, but at the time Serdar had just given his debut for die Mannschaft and done really well in Bundesliga. He was probably worth €30m realistically and Schalke were probably still hoping to make top four. It looks a lot more crazy now than it did at the time.
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I beg you, I actually BEG you to stop using "die Mannschaft". It murders a piece of my soul every time you write it. :(
 
Guys. "Die Mannschaft" is the officials name of die Mannschaft, see die Mannschaft's Twitter account, which is also called "Die Mannschaft" and uses #DieMannschaft as its main hashtag. It would be rude and childish to make up a fantasy name for such a historic institution of the football world.
 
do.ob said:
Guys. "Die Mannschaft" is the officials name of die Mannschaft, see die Mannschaft's Twitter account, which is also called "Die Mannschaft" and uses #DieMannschaft as its main hashtag. It would be rude and childish to make up a fantasy name for such a historic institution of the football world.
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Not a fantasy name. It's die Nationalmannschaft. Always been. Just because some PR team decided that we change it doesn't make it true.

That is ignoring the semantics of it. Die Mannschaft ist a generic term for a team. Nationalmannschaft clearly defined what kind of team we are talking about.
 
do.ob said:
Guys. "Die Mannschaft" is the officials name of die Mannschaft, see die Mannschaft's Twitter account, which is also called "Die Mannschaft" and uses #DieMannschaft as its main hashtag. It would be rude and childish to make up a fantasy name for such a historic institution of the football world.
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It was rude and childish by Bierhoff and his PR team to introduce us to this laughable "name" for our national team. Please stop supporting that sh**
 
do.ob said:
Guys. "Die Mannschaft" is the officials name of die Mannschaft, see die Mannschaft's Twitter account, which is also called "Die Mannschaft" and uses #DieMannschaft as its main hashtag. It would be rude and childish to make up a fantasy name for such a historic institution of the football world.
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You fiend....
 
Ueanuwug said:
That is ignoring the semantics of it. Die Mannschaft ist a generic term for a team. Nationalmannschaft clearly defined what kind of team we are talking about.
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Everyone knows that the term is referring to the national team, especially when there is context. Oh, and particularly in an English language setting like this forum. Are there Brazilians who complain that "Selecao" is a generic term for any team, where you cannot possibly know who it's referring to, even when used in context of a tournament of national teams?

Seriously, I find this German "Tradition!!!11111!!" folks hilarious. The funny thing is that they football the want preserve is itself a modernization of football how it existed before. Panta rhei, guys!
 
JuveGER said:
Everyone knows that the term is referring to the national team, especially when there is context. Oh, and particularly in an English language setting like this forum. Are there Brazilians who complain that "Selecao" is a generic term for any team, where you cannot possibly know who it's referring to, even when used in context of a tournament of national teams?

Seriously, I find this German "Tradition!!!11111!!" folks hilarious. The funny thing is that they football the want preserve is itself a modernization of football how it existed before. Panta rhei, guys!
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I would agree with you if this was a successful modernization. However interest in the national team seems to be at a very low point compared to the last few years and that is at least partially caused by people not any longer identifying themselves with the team. Die #Mannschaft just seems to be a stupid marketing vehicle and does not feel like a team representing everyone. Multiple scandals and crisis at the DFB headquarter, the worst ever result at a World Cup in 2018, failure in the Nations League all while trying to appear more "modern" is a horrible development, and symbol and symptom of those developments is actually that name no one used or asked for.
 
stefan92 said:
I would agree with you if this was a successful modernization. However interest in the national team seems to be at a very low point compared to the last few years and that is at least partially caused by people not any longer identifying themselves with the team. Die #Mannschaft just seems to be a stupid marketing vehicle and does not feel like a team representing everyone. Multiple scandals and crisis at the DFB headquarter, the worst ever result at a World Cup in 2018, failure in the Nations League all while trying to appear more "modern" is a horrible development, and symbol and symptom of those developments is actually that name no one used or asked for.
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Of course, it is a marketing thing and an attempt to have nickname, which all other major countries have. But I find it hilarious that some people get upset about something that trivial. I think scandals at the DFB and the poor performance of the team have much more to do with #DieMannschaft (SCNR) being less popular. And I am sorry to say that the new nickname is already regularly used by media domestic and abroad. It's the "new normal". You better get used to it! ;)
 
stefan92 said:
Does anyone know which club or player @do.ob hates the most? We should try to trigger him with that as revenge. :devil:
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Probably Leipzig. Otherwise try Leverkusen. Just a friendly tip.

Maybe @do.ob can start referring Die Mannschaft as The Team instead.
 
JuveGER said:
Of course, it is a marketing thing and an attempt to have nickname, which all other major countries have. But I find it hilarious that some people get upset about something that trivial. I think scandals at the DFB and the poor performance of the team have much more to do with #DieMannschaft (SCNR) being less popular. And I am sorry to say that the new nickname is already regularly used by media domestic and abroad. It's the "new normal". You better get used to it! ;)
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It's just bad and uninspired. Sure, Seleccion or Selecao are also very simple but they seem to have emerged organically. But if you want to create something more marketable artificially, at least be a bit more subtle. "Die Mannschaft" is somehow just so cringeworthy.
 
Lothar is not getting the respect he deserves - and I can see why, he had us witness some rough years, what with him buying his 18 year old girlfriend fake tits as a gift for reaching the A-levels.
His image is defined by that, but he's not like that anymore.
But look beyond his indomitable Franconian accent you'll find razor sharp analysis. By, let's not forget this, one of the greatest football players this planet has ever seen.
 
Hansi Fick said:
Lothar is not getting the respect he deserves - and I can see why, he had us witness some rough years, what with him buying his 18 year old girlfriend fake tits as a gift for reaching the A-levels.
His image is defined by that, but he's not like that anymore.
But look beyond his indomitable Franconian accent you'll find razor sharp analysis. By, let's not forget this, one of the greatest football players this planet has ever seen.
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And he has the potential to become the best greenkeeper the Bundesliga has ever seen! His talent is so great that Hoeneß banned him from ever becoming Bayern's greenkeeper. Hoeneß was afraid that people would replace the green they used to crave, aka $, with Bayern's grass, once they see the pitch Loddar made in all its glory. So, to preserve the stability of the world's economy, Hoeneß banned Loddar from ever working at Bayern.
 
Zehner said:
It's just bad and uninspired. Sure, Seleccion or Selecao are also very simple but they seem to have emerged organically. But if you want to create something more marketable artificially, at least be a bit more subtle. "Die Mannschaft" is somehow just so cringeworthy.
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Right. Traditional organic origins are very important. Can't have plastic ... uhm.. names.. in football.
 
Hansi Fick said:
Lothar is not getting the respect he deserves - and I can see why, he had us witness some rough years, what with him buying his 18 year old girlfriend fake tits as a gift for reaching the A-levels.
His image is defined by that, but he's not like that anymore.
But look beyond his indomitable Franconian accent you'll find razor sharp analysis. By, let's not forget this, one of the greatest football players this planet has ever seen.
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I find it increasingly hard to tell if you are actually being serious :lol: If not then you are playing this perfectly.
 
do.ob said:
I'm concerned with rules and values of fair play, not with pretty names.
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I'm not equating the two and for what it is worth, I have been following your extended feud with @Zehner for a while now and am impressed by the endurance with which you keep arguing with him. I simply would not have the time and/or nerves to do that. From what I can tell I am pretty squarely in your corner, which is not to say that I don't also generally respect @Zehner as a poster here. He just sometimes argues cases I don't agree with and sometimes with remarkable effort as well.

I do see the irony however in you specifcally embracing the "plastic" rebranding of our national team :)
 
It's a shit name of a marketing abomination chosen by stupid officials for stupid people

really stands for all that's wrong with the DFB imo, obvious symptom
 
Swarm said:
I'm not equating the two and for what it is worth, I have been following your extended feud with @Zehner for a while now and am impressed by the endurance with which you keep arguing with him. I simply would not have the time and/or nerves to do that. From what I can tell I am pretty squarely in your corner, which is not to say that I don't also generally respect @Zehner as a poster here. He just sometimes argues cases I don't agree with and sometimes with remarkable effort as well.

I do see the irony however in you specifcally embracing the "plastic" rebranding of our national team :)
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I wouldn't call it a feud, it's just a disagreeing argument.

And honestly, people should get over die Mannschaft calling die Mannschaft die Mannschaft. It's not meant to revolutionize the German market, it's meant for those foreign journalists who love to drop isolated German words in their articles like it means something profound and to give people abroad an official name to use.
Yet among all the things you can take issue with in modern football this is the thing that triggers everyone out of their mind, to the point where even our resident plastic connoisseur bemoans a lack of authenticity.
 
do.ob said:
I wouldn't call it a feud, it's just a disagreeing argument.

And honestly, people should get over die Mannschaft calling die Mannschaft die Mannschaft. It's not meant to revolutionize the German market, it's meant for those foreign journalists who love to drop isolated German words in their articles like it means something profound and to give people abroad an official name to use.
Yet among all the things you can take issue with in modern football this is the thing that triggers everyone out of their mind, to the point where even our resident plastic connoisseur bemoans a lack of authenticity.
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Good points.
So I propose, in order to anticipate the inevitable spelling errors too, that we write "Die Manshaft". That I would be fine with.
 
do.ob said:
I wouldn't call it a feud, it's just a disagreeing argument.
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Bit of hyperbole, was referring to the sheer walls of text you two are producing rather than it being some huge fight.
do.ob said:
And honestly, people should get over die Mannschaft calling die Mannschaft die Mannschaft. It's not meant to revolutionize the German market, it's meant for those foreign journalists who love to drop isolated German words in their articles like it means something profound and to give people abroad an official name to use.
Yet among all the things you can take issue with in modern football this is the thing that triggers everyone out of their mind, to the point where even our resident plastic connoisseur bemoans a lack of authenticity.
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The thing is that it just sticks out like a sore thumb anywhere you see it, in foreign languages even more so. It's such an easy thing to hate. Let foreign journalists call it the Nationalmannschaft, that's what people call it and hey, it's an even longer composite german word, what's not to love?
 
Swarm said:
The thing is that it just sticks out like a sore thumb anywhere you see it, in foreign languages even more so. It's such an easy thing to hate. Let foreign journalists call it the Nationalmannschaft, that's what people call it and hey, it's an even longer composite german word, what's not to love?
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Sticking out is the point, isn't it? And die Mannschaft is just more on the point than die Nationalmannschaft. It loses it's "magic" when people think half the word is English. Brazilians themselves seem to go by Selecao Brasileira, but internationally I've only ever seen the one word and everyone knows what it's supposed to mean. The same way no one asks "what factory?" when you talk about die Werkself. So really, no need to specify what Mannschaft.
 
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Hansi Fick said:
Good points.
So I propose, in order to anticipate the inevitable spelling errors too, that we write "Die Manshaft". That I would be fine with.
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I second this. This way we can call prospects "an up and coming man shafter".
 
do.ob said:
Sticking out is the point, isn't it? And die Mannschaft is just more on the point than die Nationalmannschaft. It loses it's "magic" when people think half the word is English. Brazilians themselves seem to go by Selecao Brasileira, but internationally I've only ever seen the one word and everyone knows what it's supposed to mean. The same way no one asks "what factory?" when you talk about die Werkself. So really, no need to specify what Mannschaft.
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I feel you're kind of missing the point, the Leverkusen team was named Werkself before they made it a commercial slogan. I'm not that deep into their folklore but I believe that name does indeed not stick out as much to them either.
And I honestly don't give a shit what term international journalists or fans use. I would assume they are quite capable of coming up with their own terminology. And if I were to be focused on the marketing aspect and wanted to shove some term down their throats as well as the throats of domestic fans, I would use a name that is actually being used instead of some made up crap.
 
do.ob said:
Right. Traditional organic origins are very important. Can't have plastic ... uhm.. names.. in football.
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Why did I knew you were posting that? Maybe because we already had that discussion and you let no opportunity pass to habe a dig at the evil plastic clubs who are to blame that poor Schalke doesn't get to play UCL.

I mean, if you can't see the difference, I can't help you ;)
 
Swarm said:
I feel you're kind of missing the point, the Leverkusen team was named Werkself before they made it a commercial slogan. I'm not that deep into their folklore but I believe that name does indeed not stick out as much to them either.
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No, you are missing his point, I am afraid. His argument wasn't that "Werkself" is artificial instead of organic. He was referring to a previous point made by someone who criticized the term "Die Mannschaft" as ambiguous, because it doesn't make clear, which "Mannschaft" the term is referring to. do.ob. made the argument that "Werkself" is technically ambiguous as well, because clearly in reality there are multiple "Werkself". However, in context it is typically clear that "Werkself" refers to Leverkusen, just as it is clear that "Die Mannschaft" refers to the German football national team and just as it is clear to Brazilian people that the "Selecao" is the Brazilian national team. So, the point that the term "Die Mannschaft" may be ambiguous is moot.
 
JuveGER said:
No, you are missing his point, I am afraid. His argument wasn't that "Werkself" is artificial instead of organic. He was referring to a previous point made by someone who criticized the term "Die Mannschaft" as ambiguous, because it doesn't make clear, which "Mannschaft" the term is referring to. do.ob. made the argument that "Werkself" is technically ambiguous as well, because clearly in reality there are multiple "Werkself". However, in context it is typically clear that "Werkself" refers to Leverkusen, just as it is clear that "Die Mannschaft" refers to the German football national team and just as it is clear to Brazilian people that the "Selecao" is the Brazilian national team. So, the point that the term "Die Mannschaft" may be ambiguous is moot.
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This is correct. And I would further add that not having a Werkself or Selecao in the first place was a historic oversight that needed correcting, especially since the adoption of the Swiss Nati a couple of years showed that there is actually domestic demand for such a name and that it can't be die Nationalmannschaft.
 
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