German Football 20/21

JuveGER said:
No, you are missing his point, I am afraid. His argument wasn't that "Werkself" is artificial instead of organic. He was referring to a previous point made by someone who criticized the term "Die Mannschaft" as ambiguous, because it doesn't make clear, which "Mannschaft" the term is referring to. do.ob. made the argument that "Werkself" is technically ambiguous as well, because clearly in reality there are multiple "Werkself". However, in context it is typically clear that "Werkself" refers to Leverkusen, just as it is clear that "Die Mannschaft" refers to the German football national team and just as it is clear to Brazilian people that the "Selecao" is the Brazilian national team. So, the point that the term "Die Mannschaft" may be ambiguous is moot.
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Okay, I had to scroll quite some ways back to find the post about the ambiguity, @do.ob didn't even reply to it so I did not think our conversation was focused around this. "Nationalmannschaft" and "Mannschaft" are both ambiguous, I really don't care. To be fair I don't care overly much in general, just trying to explain the negative sentiment. From what I have heard around me nobody referred to the german national team as "Die Mannschaft" before the term was coined (in fairness, nobody does it now either), whereas "Nationalmannschaft" would be a commonly used term to refer to - well - the national team. I am honestly curious whether there is another national football association that had to make up a name for their team out of thin air?
do.ob said:
This is correct. And I would further add that not having a Werkself or Selecao in the first place was a historic oversight that needed correcting, especially since the adoption of the Swiss Nati a couple of years showed that there is actually domestic demand for such a name and that it can't be die Nationalmannschaft.
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I honestly and sincerely don't know what you are talking about. Did we adopt the term "Nati"? That must have gone over my head. And why can't the name for the Nationalmannschaft be "Nationalmannschaft"? That's what everybody calls them anyways, unless I live in a very specific bubble that is different from the average reality in Germany.
 
do.ob said:
I wouldn't call it a feud, it's just a disagreeing argument.

And honestly, people should get over die Mannschaft calling die Mannschaft die Mannschaft. It's not meant to revolutionize the German market, it's meant for those foreign journalists who love to drop isolated German words in their articles like it means something profound and to give people abroad an official name to use.
Yet among all the things you can take issue with in modern football this is the thing that triggers everyone out of their mind, to the point where even our resident plastic connoisseur bemoans a lack of authenticity.
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Journalists use it in the Netherlands sometimes, and I cringe when I see it there as well. That said, I can stomach 'Oranje' better (but only in Dutch; 'the Oranje' makes no sense to me), but that's more organic, since orange is all over anything national (well, things like national sports and the royal house) in the Netherlands.
 
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Swarm said:
Okay, I had to scroll quite some ways back to find the post about the ambiguity, @do.ob didn't even reply to it so I did not think our conversation was focused around this. "Nationalmannschaft" and "Mannschaft" are both ambiguous, I really don't care. To be fair I don't care overly much in general, just trying to explain the negative sentiment. From what I have heard around me nobody referred to the german national team as "Die Mannschaft" before the term was coined (in fairness, nobody does it now either), whereas "Nationalmannschaft" would be a commonly used term to refer to - well - the national team. I am honestly curious whether there is another national football association that had to make up a name for their team out of thin air?

I honestly and sincerely don't know what you are talking about. Did we adopt the term "Nati"? That must have gone over my head. And why can't the name for the Nationalmannschaft be "Nationalmannschaft"? That's what everybody calls them anyways, unless I live in a very specific bubble that is different from the average reality in Germany.
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Yeah, that's the point. Everytime I see that logo I automatically imagine how some dusted marketing agency holds a presentation in front of Bierhoff and tells them that this is the perfect brand because it is "simple" and "inclusive" and "pure" and "represents every football team, from grassroots football to professional" but in reality it is just flat and uninspired and has the same originality as TV ads for insurance companies. I mean, branding is important and everything but if you have to shove it down our throats, at least put in the effort and think of something clever. Typically German.

Now that I think of it, "Die Mannschaft" has so little wit and creativity it could actually be the perfect brand for us :lol:

Cheimoon said:
Journalists use it in the Netherlands sometimes, and I cringe when I see it there as well. That said, I can stomach 'Oranje' better (but only in Dutch 'the Oranje' makes no sense to me), but that's more organic, since orange is all over anything national (well, things like national sports and the royal house) in the Netherlands.
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All this "Die Mannschaft" stuff had me wondering a few times, do Spanish fans also cringe when they read "Seleccion"? Brazilians at "Selecao"? Italians at "Squadra Azzurra"? English at "Three Lions"? I mean, we're in an international forum, this is probably the best place to find out if they really use those nicknames themselves or if it is just us .
 
Hansi Fick said:
https://www.sport1.de/tv-video/vide...treffen__5BC636BA-56D5-4447-B488-D42F0D75B7FD

Name ANY other German ex-footballer pundit that would be able to formulate that last long sentence without making a single grammatical error. Start the sentence, a few parentheses and Nebensätze, come back to the main sentence, finish it right. It's impressive.
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I am sorry to have misunderstood you mate :lol:
If you present it like this I can of course only come to the conclusion that Lothar Matthäus is indeed a footballing genius, on and off the pitch. Furthermore the only person capable of properly pronouncing "Saison".
 
I'm just going to keep posting links to videos of Lothar Matthäus speaking.

That's what you guys get for your dismissive, arrogant, disrespectful attitudes.
 
JPRouve said:
Is it die Grammatik Mannschaft thread?
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Just to actualize Godwin's law: at least that sounds better than 'grammar nazis', certainly in this particular thread.

Yeah, sorry...
 
Swarm said:
I honestly and sincerely don't know what you are talking about. Did we adopt the term "Nati"? That must have gone over my head. And why can't the name for the Nationalmannschaft be "Nationalmannschaft"? That's what everybody calls them anyways, unless I live in a very specific bubble that is different from the average reality in Germany.
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I don't know which tournament it was anymore, but during one of them "nati" became somewhat commonly used (not really by journalists or officials, but by regular people) and I assume this is something that pushed guys like Bierhoff over the edge, to come out with their own name.

And it can't be "Nationalmannschaft", because foreigners would probably think half the word is English, which defeats the purpose of using random foreign words out of context and for the domestic audience it would be (even significantly more) daft than "die Mannschaft" to use the factually correct noun and pretend it now carries more meaning, but only for the German team.

Cheimoon said:
Journalists use it in the Netherlands sometimes, and I cringe when I see it there as well. That said, I can stomach 'Oranje' better (but only in Dutch; 'the Oranje' makes no sense to me), but that's more organic, since orange is all over anything national (well, things like national sports and the royal house) in the Netherlands.
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Of course it's going to stick out more, since it's new. But how is it any different from say Selecao or Seleccion or especially Elftal, which (I think) is more or less the Dutch equivalent for the German word Mannschaft?
 
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Cheimoon said:
Just to actualize Godwin's law: at least that sounds better than 'grammar nazis', certainly in this particular thread.

Yeah, sorry...
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:lol:

I love this thread and the German Caf members. You guys have the best talks and discussions in the whole forum even over the most trivial topics.
 
Swarm said:
Okay, I had to scroll quite some ways back to find the post about the ambiguity, @do.ob didn't even reply to it so I did not think our conversation was focused around this. "Nationalmannschaft" and "Mannschaft" are both ambiguous, I really don't care. To be fair I don't care overly much in general, just trying to explain the negative sentiment. From what I have heard around me nobody referred to the german national team as "Die Mannschaft" before the term was coined (in fairness, nobody does it now either), whereas "Nationalmannschaft" would be a commonly used term to refer to - well - the national team. I am honestly curious whether there is another national football association that had to make up a name for their team out of thin air?
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Fair enough, the post I mean was somewhere in the middle of a whole lot of posts with slightly different discussions and could be missed. TbH, I have no problem with the term #Die Mannschaft, but don't use it either as it does not feel natural to me. It's not something my friends, family or I ever used. But I wouldn't be surprised if the term sticks and will become normal down the road.

Have a good day!
 
Anyways, has anyone caught wind of the Silas identity situation? Yesterday, he revealed that he was coerced into providing incorrect identity information by a corrupt agent. The agent did this in order to break his connection with Silas's former Congolese club, and Silas has been strongly dependent on that agent since, basically living in fear the whole time. Silas going public with this info means that he's probably in a much better situation and feels secure enough to bring this to light.

With his correct name and date of birth now revealed, the DFB have banned him for 3 months and fined him 30k Euros. Fortunately for him, he's out with a long-term injury, which should cover that 3-month period anyways.

Original story:


The ban:
 
mazhar13 said:
Anyways, has anyone caught wind of the Silas identity situation? Yesterday, he revealed that he was coerced into providing incorrect identity information by a corrupt agent. The agent did this in order to break his connection with Silas's former Congolese club, and Silas has been strongly dependent on that agent since, basically living in fear the whole time. Silas going public with this info means that he's probably in a much better situation and feels secure enough to bring this to light.

With his correct name and date of birth now revealed, the DFB have banned him for 3 months and fined him 30k Euros. Fortunately for him, he's out with a long-term injury, which should cover that 3-month period anyways.
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I don't think there is much more to say about this case, other than that FIFA should care more about the exploitation of African kids. In Germany clubs have to take care that youngsters get a proper education and (at least officially) they will kick out the ones who under perform in school. So that the ones who don't make it at a professional level can still return to a regular life relatively seamlessly. But African kids seem to have little to no protection from predatory agents and given how rich the industry is that shouldn't be the case.
 
JuveGER said:
Fair enough, the post I mean was somewhere in the middle of a whole lot of posts with slightly different discussions and could be missed. TbH, I have no problem with the term #Die Mannschaft, but don't use it either as it does not feel natural to me. It's not something my friends, family or I ever used. But I wouldn't be surprised if the term sticks and will become normal down the road.

Have a good day!
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Yeah, as stated above I am not losing any sleep over it either and the aspect of it not feeling natural is probably what we can agree on. And it may well catch on if enough time passes, weirder things have happened. Then I will end up a disgruntled old man complaining that back in my day we called it Nationalmannschaft and we liked it :lol: A nice weekend to you as well :)
 
do.ob said:
I don't know which tournament it was anymore, but during one of them "nati" became somewhat commonly used (not really by journalists or officials, but by regular people) and I assume this is something that pushed guys like Bierhoff over the edge, to come out with their own name.

And it can't be "Nationalmannschaft", because foreigners would probably think half the word is English, which defeats the purpose of using random foreign words out of context and for the domestic audience it would be (even significantly more) daft than "die Mannschaft" to use the factually correct noun and pretend it now carries more meaning, but only for the German team.
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Okay, I must have mist that "Nati" stint then, no problem.
I still don't fully understand why "it can't be Nationalmannschaft". Sure people might mispronounce it but honestly I am almost sure I'm mispronouncing selecao and a lot of people probably would have issues properly pronouncing seleccion (I did not even properly spell either of them with their respective accents). If foreigners want to seem knowledgeable about the german team or have fun using german words I believe it is no hassle to learn how to pronounce the word that is actually used and if they don't give a shit then I don't either :)
For the domestic audience I am honestly not sure what the actual importance of having a term forced upon us would be. The only thing I can think of is canalizing hashtags.

Anyways, really not something we need to get hung up on as it is of minor relevance and I have no issue with you embracing the slogan and me finding it somewhat insufferable :)
 
Swarm said:
:)
Okay, I must have mist that "Nati" stint then, no problem.
I still don't fully understand why "it can't be Nationalmannschaft". Sure people might mispronounce it but honestly I am almost sure I'm mispronouncing selecao and a lot of people probably would have issues properly pronouncing seleccion (I did not even properly spell either of them with their respective accents). If foreigners want to seem knowledgeable about the german team or have fun using german words I believe it is no hassle to learn how to pronounce the word that is actually used and if they don't give a shit then I don't either :)
For the domestic audience I am honestly not sure what the actual importance of having a term forced upon us would be. The only thing I can think of is canalizing hashtags.

Anyways, really not something we need to get hung up on as it is of minor relevance and I have no issue with you embracing the slogan and me finding it somewhat insufferable
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These nicknames aren't necessarily supposed to make sense or be pronounced correctly and they aren't aimed at people with a deeply rooted interest in Germany. They are used to create a superficial foreign/exotic flair, so it has to be something random people perceive as 100% German, which doesn't work with a word that might as well be half English.
 
NoLogo said:
That's just brutal, man. :(
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Obviously it's time for the summer break to end, we urgently need real news about really interesting stuff to discuss. Hopefully not commented by Matthäus. :lol:
 
do.ob said:
These nicknames aren't necessarily supposed to make sense or be pronounced correctly and they aren't aimed at people with a deeply rooted interest in Germany. They are used to create a superficial foreign/exotic flair, so it has to be something random people perceive as 100% German, which doesn't work with a word that might as well be half English.
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That is the most nonsensical thing I have ever heard and I am truly surprised it would be something you support :lol: Am I getting this right, "Bratwurst" would have been fine since nobody would mistake it for an english word? Well, maybe something less internationally known, maybe "Waschlappen"?

Edit: Really not trying to be a dick here, I actually had fun trying to come up with words :lol:
 
Swarm said:
That is the most nonsensical thing I have ever heard and I am truly surprised it would be something you support :lol: Am I getting this right, "Bratwurst" would have been fine since nobody would mistake it for an english word? Well, maybe something less internationally known, maybe "Waschlappen"?

Edit: Really not trying to be a dick here, I actually had fun trying to come up with words :lol:
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Well, obviously people don't pick words at random, but essentially yes. No one uses Selecao, because their own language doesn't have a word with similar meaning.No one uses it for the Portuguese team, they use it, because it sounds fancy and "Brazilian".
 
Swarm said:
That is the most nonsensical thing I have ever heard and I am truly surprised it would be something you support :lol: Am I getting this right, "Bratwurst" would have been fine since nobody would mistake it for an english word? Well, maybe something less internationally known, maybe "Waschlappen"?

Edit: Really not trying to be a dick here, I actually had fun trying to come up with words :lol:
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They contain "brat" and "lap" so that won't work
 
do.ob said:
Well, obviously people don't pick words at random, but essentially yes. No one uses Selecao, because their own language doesn't have a word with similar meaning.No one uses it for the Portuguese team, they use it, because it sounds fancy and "Brazilian".
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I would argue people use it because it is the term that over time has been adopted to refer to the Brazilian national team. Just like it has not been (internationally) used when speaking about the Portuguese team. It may be used to be fancy and I wouldn't know what Brazilians would use in a normal conversation but I believe it is a lot more ingrained in actual football culture and is in that sense very much NOT a random term.
 
HisNameIsEarl said:
I mean isn't the whole stuff about "we need to create a brand, that requires a unique name we can reserve and claim our rights for, so that we can do proper marketing, ask money from anyone that uses it commercially, and sue everyone else we don't want to use it" ?
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It feels more like wanting to sit at the cool kids table who all have some rad nickname :lol:
 
Swarm said:
It feels more like wanting to sit at the cool kids table who all have some rad nickname :lol:
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Both of you could be right. What he said is what Bierhoff etc wanted, what you said is how it is perceived :lol:
 
stefan92 said:
Both of you could be right. What he said is what Bierhoff etc wanted, what you said is how it is perceived :lol:
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They just couldn't claim "Nationalmannschaft", as it refers to many teams and the trademark office wouldn't accept it, nor would any court. That's all there's to it. Never seen or heard anything of "die Mannschaft" before it was heavily promoted by dfb marketing. Pretty sure it was trademarked first, and then introduced to the public.
 
HisNameIsEarl said:
They just couldn't claim "Nationalmannschaft", as it refers to many teams and the trademark office wouldn't accept it, nor would any court. That's all there's to it. Never seen or heard anything of "die Mannschaft" before it was heavily promoted by dfb marketing. Pretty sure it was trademarked first, and then introduced to the public.
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Is that really that big of a deal? I mean, it is not like "Die Mannschaft" isn't used frequently, too. I imagine if you trademark such a phrase it depends on the context of usage. Same with Black Friday in Germany for instance. You can write it in articles but can be sued when you use it in advertisement.

As I remember it, the term "Die Mannschaft" actually emerged among foreign fans. The DFB probably thought it was clever to adapt it.

I definitely think for the German market, "Die Nationalmannschaft" would've been much better. As a media company, why would I want to use "Die Mannschaft" anyway? The primary target group hates it.
 
The people who hate "die Mannschaft" are the ones who would hate any proposed name, because they hate commercialization and they hate Bierhoff as its public face. They are also the ones who are so committed to football that you don't need to court them.This was never going to impress people who are set in their ways. But over time it will become something normal.
 
do.ob said:
The people who hate "die Mannschaft" are the ones who would hate any proposed name, because they hate commercialization and they hate Bierhoff as its public face. They are also the ones who are so committed to football that you don't need to court them.This was never going to impress people who are set in their ways. But over time it will become something normal.
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I would have honestly been okay with something like "Adler" or "Bundesadler" (similar to how England use "Three Lions") if they were going to make up a term that nobody currently uses. I could see something like that gaining traction over time, even in Germany. "Die Mannschaft" is just so generic that you already need to have established a very specific context as to not confuse people, so it doesn't really work in regular conversation.
 
Okocha119 said:
I would have honestly been okay with something like "Adler" or "Bundesadler" (similar to how England use "Three Lions") if they were going to make up a term that nobody currently uses. I could see something like that gaining traction over time, even in Germany. "Die Mannschaft" is just so generic that you already need to have established a very specific context as to not confuse people, so it doesn't really work in regular conversation.
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I guess that's a matter of preference. Personally, when you have to implement such a nickname artificially, I like it better to use such a simplistic and neutral term, it's of course still forced, but much less so than to pretend that we're the eagles now, one is a nickname, the other is an identity. As I've already mentioned I think this is mainly aimed at the international market anyway, but they can probably also mine "die Mannschaft" all day long domestically as well, if they spin it like "it's the team for everyone, our team" or some other inclusive slogan.
 
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https://www.handelsblatt.com/untern...gen-in-brandbrief-widerstand-an/27280400.html

Handelsblatt report that Hoffenheim, Wolfsburg and Leverkusen - together - sent a letter to the DFL addressing the recent cartel office ruling against their exemption from 50+1

-they ask to be "intensively" involved in further deliberations
-"for the sake of the integrity ( :lol:) of Bundesliga the shared interest of us all has to be to solve this difficult situation purposefully and with diplomatic apititude"
-a lot of bitching about the cartel office
-the bosses of the three "clubs" in question wonder whether Bundesliga's purpose can really be club (as in fan/member controlled) centered, when these three clubs can legally take part in it
-some threats that they can't exist without their exception and will bring down 50+1 in its entirety if the cartel office's ruling prevails

The article also contains some quote from Andreas Rettig, the league's CEO between 2013 and 2015:
-he reiterates that the majority of clubs firmly stand behind 50+1
-all statues are based on it (50+1), this is "not a legal, but a (sport) political matter"
-ideal would be a reversal of the exceptions granted
-otherwise they should look for a way to have the parent companies compensate for the competitive advantage of their clubs, he suggests doing this via TV money, by giving a bonus to clubs that adhere to 50+1 or putting a limit on the amount of funds that can be injected into a club
 
do.ob said:
https://www.handelsblatt.com/untern...gen-in-brandbrief-widerstand-an/27280400.html

Handelsblatt report that Hoffenheim, Wolfsburg and Leverkusen - together - sent a letter to the DFL addressing the recent cartel office ruling against their exemption from 50+1

-they ask to be "intensively" involved in further deliberations
-"for the sake of the integrity ( :lol:) of Bundesliga the shared interest of us all has to be to solve this difficult situation purposefully and with diplomatic apititude"
-a lot of bitching about the cartel office
-the bosses of the three "clubs" in question wonder whether Bundesliga's purpose can really be club (as in fan/member controlled) centered, when these three clubs can legally take part in it
-some threats that they can't exist without their exception and will bring down 50+1 in its entirety if the cartel office's ruling prevails

The article also contains some quote from Andreas Rettig, the league's CEO between 2013 and 2015:
-he reiterates that the majority of clubs firmly stand behind 50+1
-all statues are based on it (50+1), this is "not a legal, but a (sport) political matter"
-ideal would be a reversal of the exceptions granted
-otherwise they should look for a way to have the parent companies compensate for the competitive advantage of their clubs, he suggests doing this via TV money, by giving a bonus to clubs that adhere to 50+1 or putting a limit on the amount of funds that can be injected into a club
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There is an easy solution to this issue :D
 
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