German Football 20/21

[Ueanuwug]

The people who hate "die Mannschaft" are the ones who would hate any proposed name, because they hate commercialization and they hate Bierhoff as its public face. They are also the ones who are so committed to football that you don't need to court them.This was never going to impress people who are set in their ways. But over time it will become something normal.

I hate it, because it is an artificial creation without any value to it. Something like Three Lions, Oranje, etc. at least have a connection to the country beyond just the language. "Die Mannschaft" doesn't. It's uninspired, unoriginal and semantically pointless. The only connection it has is that it's german. We might as well call us "Die Kartoffeln" then. That's also a german word. And one that's already sometimes used towards germans.

Also today being on a birthday I checked out, if it is just me finding it utterly stupid and cringe. Turns out all the people there that have an interest in football disliked it and refuses to use it. Potentially confirmation bias, though.

Or in short: Language develops over time. If there is the desire for people to nickname our national team, we would have already had one. And the argument of marketing a national team to an international audience is somewhat ... pointless.

 

[HisNameIsEarl]

Is that really that big of a deal? I mean, it is not like "Die Mannschaft" isn't used frequently, too. I imagine if you trademark such a phrase it depends on the context of usage. Same with Black Friday in Germany for instance. You can write it in articles but can be sued when you use it in advertisement.

As I remember it, the term "Die Mannschaft" actually emerged among foreign fans. The DFB probably thought it was clever to adapt it.

I definitely think for the German market, "Die Nationalmannschaft" would've been much better. As a media company, why would I want to use "Die Mannschaft" anyway? The primary target group hates it.

To me, it matters. Die Nationalmannschaft belongs to all of us, "die Mannschaft" belongs to the marketing team, in both senses of the word. I feel emotionally connected to the former, while I've got absolutely no connection to the latter, and have never understood how football culture was allowed to be owned by someone. We've seen the problems arising from that recently and were happy to have 50+1 at least, while every Manchester fan deeply understands the impossibily of turning the wheel back when football was privatized once.

 

[Swarm]

The people who hate "die Mannschaft" are the ones who would hate any proposed name, because they hate commercialization and they hate Bierhoff as its public face. They are also the ones who are so committed to football that you don't need to court them.This was never going to impress people who are set in their ways. But over time it will become something normal.

You are probably right that I would have disliked most artificially created new nicknames for the DFB-team. I don't mind Bierhoff btw, I think he has done rather well for DFB all things considered.
I would not consider myself "set in my ways" at 31, but you are definitely right that I am not the demographic this was aimed. While it adds to the alienation from modern football (it by FAR is not the biggest culprit) so far it has not successfully driven me away, so you are right there as well

 

[Piratesoup]

What have I done?

 

[Swarm]

What have I done?

I believe you have started a rather fun debate

 

[Zehner]

To me, it matters. Die Nationalmannschaft belongs to all of us, "die Mannschaft" belongs to the marketing team, in both senses of the word. I feel emotionally connected to the former, while I've got absolutely no connection to the latter, and have never understood how football culture was allowed to be owned by someone. We've seen the problems arising from that recently and were happy to have 50+1 at least, while every Manchester fan deeply understands the impossibily of turning the wheel back when football was privatized once.

I was referring to the trademark stuff. I agree with the brand being terrible. Not so much regarding 50+1 but that's a topic I don't want to open again, so lets leave it at that

 

[Zehner]

https://www.handelsblatt.com/untern...gen-in-brandbrief-widerstand-an/27280400.html

Handelsblatt report that Hoffenheim, Wolfsburg and Leverkusen - together - sent a letter to the DFL addressing the recent cartel office ruling against their exemption from 50+1

-they ask to be "intensively" involved in further deliberations
-"for the sake of the integrity ( ) of Bundesliga the shared interest of us all has to be to solve this difficult situation purposefully and with diplomatic apititude"
-a lot of bitching about the cartel office
-the bosses of the three "clubs" in question wonder whether Bundesliga's purpose can really be club (as in fan/member controlled) centered, when these three clubs can legally take part in it
-some threats that they can't exist without their exception and will bring down 50+1 in its entirety if the cartel office's ruling prevails

The article also contains some quote from Andreas Rettig, the league's CEO between 2013 and 2015:
-he reiterates that the majority of clubs firmly stand behind 50+1
-all statues are based on it (50+1), this is "not a legal, but a (sport) political matter"
-ideal would be a reversal of the exceptions granted
-otherwise they should look for a way to have the parent companies compensate for the competitive advantage of their clubs, he suggests doing this via TV money, by giving a bonus to clubs that adhere to 50+1 or putting a limit on the amount of funds that can be injected into a club

Be careful what you wish for. I don't think the DFL wants a law suit in this. In the end, Bayern already has a monopoly in the Bundesliga, is growing faster than the competition and have won the league 9 years in a row - exactly what the cartel office shall prevent. If this goes to a court, the outcome might be unfavorable for you. I know we all agree commercialization is the evilest thing in the world and tradition is more important than everything else but that notion doesn't go well with the principles of the social market economy, like it or not.

And saying that the Bundesliga isn't club centered anyway is correct and another mountain that I doubt the DFL wants to climb.

 

[Hansi Fick]

Believe it or not, but I think that the die Manshaft will win the Euros

 

[Hansi Fick]

^works pretty well I think.

 

[Hansi Fick]

The squad is actually very strong and experienced at the highest level, and should be able to compete with anyone, but Low's poor work has managed to lower expectations for die Manshafft significantly.

 

[Hansi Fick]

^not bad either, but a bit mannerist. I prefer the first one.

The die Manshaft. Let's make it official.
What do you say?
Aye, or Nay?

 

[mazhar13]

I hate it, because it is an artificial creation without any value to it. Something like Three Lions, Oranje, etc. at least have a connection to the country beyond just the language. "Die Mannschaft" doesn't. It's uninspired, unoriginal and semantically pointless. The only connection it has is that it's german. We might as well call us "Die Kartoffeln" then. That's also a german word. And one that's already sometimes used towards germans.

Also today being on a birthday I checked out, if it is just me finding it utterly stupid and cringe. Turns out all the people there that have an interest in football disliked it and refuses to use it. Potentially confirmation bias, though.

Or in short: Language develops over time. If there is the desire for people to nickname our national team, we would have already had one. And the argument of marketing a national team to an international audience is somewhat ... pointless.

To be fair, there are many people who root for and even support national teams that aren't associated with their nationality(ies), mostly from countries that tend to struggle internationally. I know a work colleague who supports the German national team, and I know a bunch of people from the Middle East who root for national teams associated with the clubs they support. When I was in school in the Middle East, I had an Arab local ask me why I didn't root for England in Euro 2012 despite supporting Manchester United.

I think die Mannschaft is most likely contrived for those international fans even though I've yet to hear/read any of them use it. With that said, I really want to know how @hasanejaz88 feels about it. I don't think he's German, but he supports Germany, and he lives there, too, so he might be able to end this debate once and for all.

 

[Cheimoon]

To be fair, there are many people who root for and even support national teams that aren't associated with their nationality(ies), mostly from countries that tend to struggle internationally. I know a work colleague who supports the German national team, and I know a bunch of people from the Middle East who root for national teams associated with the clubs they support. When I was in school in the Middle East, I had an Arab local ask me why I didn't root for England in Euro 2012 despite supporting Manchester United.

I think die Mannschaft is most likely contrived for those international fans even though I've yet to hear/read any of them use it. With that said, I really want to know how @hasanejaz88 feels about it. I don't think he's German, but he supports Germany, and he lives there, too, so he might be able to end this debate once and for all.

As an aside, as someone who has trouble saying 'we' about anything I'm not personally involved in (like, 'in Canada, we...', or 'in the Netherlands, we...', or 'we lost last week to Arsenal'), the most I've been weirded out about fandom ever, was when I was talking to a Canadian who was a fan of the Dutch national team. He was saying stuff like 'we did really well in South Africa and Brazil, but the squad is much weaker now'. Somehow, saying 'we' about another country's national team is something I just really can't get. (I didn't tell him though. Smile and odd! )

 

[mazhar13]

As an aside, as someone who has trouble saying 'we' about anything I'm not personally involved in (like, 'in Canada, we...', or 'in the Netherlands, we...', or 'we lost last week to Arsenal'), the most I've been weirded out about fandom ever, was when I was talking to a Canadian who was a fan of the Dutch national team. He was saying stuff like 'we did really well in South Africa and Brazil, but the squad is much weaker now'. Somehow, saying 'we' about another country's national team is something I just really can't get. (I didn't tell him though. Smile and odd! )

They're going to have an incredibly tough time referring to their national team come 2022 or 2026.

 

[Cheimoon]

They're going to have an incredibly tough time referring to their national team come 2022 or 2026.

Their national teamS, I suppose it is then.

 

[mazhar13]

Their national teamS, I suppose it is then.

I really, really hope that's not the case if Canada qualifies for 2022. Then again, that's just me.

 

[uamini]

From what I have heard around me nobody referred to the german national team as "Die Mannschaft" before the term was coined (in fairness, nobody does it now either), whereas "Nationalmannschaft" would be a commonly used term to refer to - well - the national team.

For what it's worth the French media was referring to the German team as "la Mannschaft" long before it became a marketing tool. I was always annoyed every time that term popped up so you can imagine my reaction when Bierhoff decided to use it as well.

Edit: This article seems to confirm that: they claim that it's been in use in France since 1982.

 

[do.ob]

For what it's worth the French media was referring to the German team as "la Mannschaft" long before it became a marketing tool. I was always annoyed every time that term popped up so you can imagine my reaction when Bierhoff decided to use it as well.

Edit: This article seems to confirm that: they claim that it's been in use in France since 1982.

Bierhoff vindicated! Vive la die Mannschaft!

 

[Hansi Fick]

I love the French. I'm on board.

 

[Swarm]

Dann müssen wir den Franzosen wohl dankbar sein...

 

[do.ob]

Let's steer this thread back to a serious conversation: who is the worst German pundit? And how much does Schweinsteiger get paid for it?

 

[Swarm]

Let's steer this thread back to a serious conversation: who is the worst German pundit? And how much does Schweinsteiger get paid for it?

Oh, @Hansi Fick won't like this

 

[arthurka]

Let's steer this thread back to a serious conversation: who is the worst German pundit? And how much does Schweinsteiger get paid for it?

Not nearly enough, he is a cool customer. Plus I think the VW Werkself Mannschaft will do great this time around. Plus Loddar is a genius.

 

[do.ob]

Oh, @Hansi Fick won't like this

This isn't about Matthäus. He is a witty and razor sharp analyst compared to Schweinsteiger!

 

[Swarm]

This isn't about Matthäus. He is a witty and razor sharp analyst compared to Schweinsteiger!

I'd say Schweinsteiger is boring and pointless, whereas Loddar is actively infuriating and he's fecking everywhere

 

[do.ob]

I'd say Schweinsteiger is boring and pointless, whereas Loddar is actively infuriating and he's fecking everywhere

Matthäus actually holds opinions though, it's not his fault he has to work for Sky and work once a week while Schweinsteiger only has to work every couple of months for his salary.

 

[Hansi Fick]

I'd say Schweinsteiger is boring and pointless, whereas Loddar is actively infuriating and he's fecking everywhere

You're just jealous that our Ballon D'Or winner is a fluid and precise commentator while yours is a rambling, unintelligible fool

 

[Swarm]

Matthäus actually holds opinions though, it's not his fault he has to work for Sky and work once a week while Schweinsteiger only has to work every couple of months for his salary.

Of course it is his fault, he took the job. And the way I perceive him (quite possibly influenced by my contempt for the guy), he really really wants it as well because it puts him into the spotlight and he can feel like a super smart football expert. And the "opinions" he holds are as simplistic as they come and often feel like he memorized them before the show. I can't remember him ever contributing anything of substance concerning tactics for example. It's always "they wanted it more, the other team should have fought harder" pub level analytics. Which is the amount of insight sky usually grants so fair enough. I just can't stand his selfindulgence combined with that horrid dialect

 

[do.ob]

Of course it is his fault, he took the job. And the way I perceive him (quite possibly influenced by my contempt for the guy), he really really wants it as well because it puts him into the spotlight and he can feel like a super smart football expert. And the "opinions" he holds are as simplistic as they come and often feel like he memorized them before the show. I can't remember him ever contributing anything of substance concerning tactics for example. It's always "they wanted it more, the other team should have fought harder" pub level analytics. Which is the amount of insight sky usually grants so fair enough. I just can't stand his selfindulgence combined with that horrid dialect

I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm just contrasting him to Schweinsteiger.

 

[Hansi Fick]

"Horrid dialect"? That's offensive. The treatment of Matthäus is a constant stream of linguistic discrimination.

 

[Swarm]

I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm just contrasting him to Schweinsteiger.

I know, in all honesty I can't really comment on Schweinsteiger because I literally can't remember a single thing I might have heard him say at any point He seems inoffensive to me in that regard but you could of course argue that this defeats the purpose of having a pundit in the first place.

 

[Swarm]

"Horrid dialect"? You Sir are a racist.

I believe "frankist" might be the proper term.

 

[Hansi Fick]

Schweinsteiger shouldn't be a pundit, it's sad to see, it's not in his mental disposition, he's not someone who judges and comments.

 

[do.ob]

On sunday Schalke were trying to hold their general meeting via the internet. It was highly anticipated, given that they basically skipped last year's, because of Corona and of course, because it gives fans a chance to confront their club's leadership and perhaps vote some of them out of their posts. However despite only a moderate number of fans tuning in (7500) and the meeting going on for about five hours, they eventually had to abort it, because they couldn't get their voting software to work.

And today there is this little gem:


Rudy, who already fleeced them by demanding that they keep paying him half of his €6m wages while he was loaned out to Hoffenheim politely declined to show up to their pre-season, because officially that same loan deal is still active until the end of the month. Even though the two clubs had actually cleared it for him.

Mark Uth supposedly also takes them to the cleaners, by demanding a compensation to join his boyhood club Cologne in the first division.

 

[stefan92]

On sunday Schalke were trying to hold their general meeting via the internet. It was highly anticipated, given that they basically skipped last year's, because of Corona and of course, because it gives fans a chance to confront their club's leadership and perhaps vote some of them out of their posts. However despite only a moderate number of fans tuning in (7500) and the meeting going on for about five hours, they eventually had to abort it, because they couldn't get their voting software to work.

And today there is this little gem:


Rudy, who already fleeced them by demanding that they keep paying him half of his €6m wages while he was loaned out to Hoffenheim politely declined to show up to their pre-season, because officially that same loan deal is still active until the end of the month. Even though the two clubs had actually cleared it for him.

Mark Uth supposedly also takes them to the cleaners, by demanding a compensation to join his boyhood club Cologne in the first division.

Rudy really seems to hate Schalke. However he seems to be willing to play for Schalke in the second league once that loan deal is over. Of course only for his fully salary of €6m, that stays the same despite Schalke being relegated and would make him the top earner in the second league. Someone at Schalke REALLY made a mistake giving him that contract

 

[do.ob]

Rudy really seems to hate Schalke. However he seems to be willing to play for Schalke in the second league once that loan deal is over. Of course only for his fully salary of €6m, that stays the same despite Schalke being relegated and would make him the top earner in the second league. Someone at Schalke REALLY made a mistake giving him that contract

After Tedesco's first season even Schalke realized their football was atrocious, so they bought Rudy as their star player to single handedly fix their possession issues. Five games later they went back to hoofball like never before and soon after they started criticizing Rudy in the press and dropped him. I wouldn't have any loyalty towards Schalke either if I was him.

 

[stefan92]

After Tedesco's first season even Schalke realized their football was atrocious, so they bought Rudy as their star player to single handedly fix their possession issues. Five games later they went back to hoofball like never before and soon after they started criticizing Rudy in the press and dropped him. I wouldn't have any loyalty towards Schalke either if I was him.

Probably right. I don't think I would do it different in his situation.

 

[Wolf1992]

I would have honestly been okay with something like "Adler" or "Bundesadler" (similar to how England use "Three Lions") if they were going to make up a term that nobody currently uses. I could see something like that gaining traction over time, even in Germany. "Die Mannschaft" is just so generic that you already need to have established a very specific context as to not confuse people, so it doesn't really work in regular conversation.

The marketing of "Die Mannschaft" seems a thing for international marketing, since people who don't know the german language won't see any problem with "Die Mannschaft" being wrong in its semantics, they just hear Die Mannschaft when discussing about football, and think about the german national football team.
Seleção literally means "National team" in english and "Selección nacional" in spanish, and it is also wrong in its semantics, because "Seleção" can also be used to refer to other national teams e.g : "Seleção Argentina de Futebol" or "Seleção Inglesa de Futebol"...and brazilian journalists don't give a crap if foreign journalists/fans can't pronounce "Seleção" properly cause they can't speak portuguese.

Die Mannschaft seems like a good nickname, because it sounds very german.
It doesn't need to have an 'esoterical' or 'astral' meaning to make sense, it's all about marketing.

 

[Acrobat7]

Rudy, who already fleeced them by demanding that they keep paying him half of his €6m wages while he was loaned out to Hoffenheim politely declined to show up to their pre-season, because officially that same loan deal is still active until the end of the month. Even though the two clubs had actually cleared it for him.

How exactly is Rudy „fleecing“ them? I also expect my employer to pay me the salary stated in my contract. Schalke and Rudy agreed to that contract after all.

 

[Swarm]

How exactly is Rudy „fleecing“ them? I also expect my employer to pay me the salary stated in my contract. Schalke and Rudy agreed to that contract after all.

It does feel like a case of "kicking them when they are down". The club is in serious financial trouble and there is a pretty significant chance of them going bankrupt. I know that he has a right to his contract and may not have any allegiances to the club after his experiences with them. But considering there are teammates, club employees and a large fanbase that care for the club it is in the very least a bit dickish how he is handling the situation. As a teammate that actually wants the club and the team to succeed I would be pretty pissed at someone that earns a feckton of money in the second division and doesn't even lower himself to come train with me.