German Football 20/21

do.ob said:
So I've stumbled upon this article:
https://www.kicker.de/bayer-senkt-dauerkarten-preise-bis-zu-30-prozent-805976/artikel

Leverkusen are dropping the price of season tickets by 30% and are trying to move the season ticket holders from seats in the upper tier to the lower tier. Both measures (moving season tickets to lower tiers -> move empty seats to the upper tiers and out of sight from most camera angles) strongly suggest that the club anticipates (even more) trouble to sell out their quite moderately sized stadium.
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There might be another explanation. Season card holders are more likely part of the organized fan clubs etc and might be more involved in doing supporter choreographies and so on. It might be a try to improve this type of support by selling the seats more far away from the field to casual visitors instead of placing those nearer to the action that the hardcore fans.

This is more or less mentioned in the kicker article: "Fans mit bestehenden Saison-Tickets bittet der Klub, den Platz im Oberrang gegen einen im Unterrang einzutauschen. Dadurch sitzen sie näher am Spielgeschehen, wodurch sich der Klub einen besseren Support versprich" - "The club asks fans who have existing season tickets to exchange their place in the upper tier with one in the lower tiers. Therefore they are closer to the action, therefore the club expects better support."
 
stefan92 said:
There might be another explanation. Season card holders are more likely part of the organized fan clubs etc and might be more involved in doing supporter choreographies and so on. It might be a try to improve this type of support by selling the seats more far away from the field to casual visitors instead of placing those nearer to the action that the hardcore fans.

This is more or less mentioned in the kicker article: "Fans mit bestehenden Saison-Tickets bittet der Klub, den Platz im Oberrang gegen einen im Unterrang einzutauschen. Dadurch sitzen sie näher am Spielgeschehen, wodurch sich der Klub einen besseren Support versprich" - "The club asks fans who have existing season tickets to exchange their place in the upper tier with one in the lower tiers. Therefore they are closer to the action, therefore the club expects better support."
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I mean that's just a bunch of bullshit. The support in stadiums comes from the ultra blocks behind the goal and gets weaker the further you get away from it. No one on the main stand is going to magically become vocal, because they are closer to the pitch. And don't forget that BayArena isn't exactly Camp Nou, where the cheap seats need binoculars. The 30% discount tells you what's really going on.

What the hell is this madness in Kiel: 2-1 to Cologne after 5 minutes :drool:
 
What the hell's going on in the play off match, Koln 3-1 up after just 15 minutes. :eek: In previous years away goals applied so I presume it's the case this year so they're in very strong position to be yet another Bundesliga club that stays up in the relegation play off.
 
FootballHQ said:
What the hell's going on in the play off match, Koln 3-1 up after just 15 minutes. :eek: In previous years away goals applied so I presume it's the case this year so they're in very strong position to be yet another Bundesliga club that stays up in the relegation play off.
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Yeah, Kiel need two goals now. 4 goals in 15 minutes, all four of them headers. Madness. Kiel especially conceded some proper 2nd division goals.
 
do.ob said:
Yeah, Kiel need two goals now. 4 goals in 15 minutes, all four of them headers. Madness. Kiel especially conceded some proper 2nd division goals.
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3 goals...

Wolfsburg now seems to be the most northern stadium in Bundesliga next season... - or is Berlin more to the north than Wolfsburg?
 
Blackwidow said:
Wolfsburg now seems to be the most northern stadium in Bundesliga next season... - or is Berlin more to the north than Wolfsburg?
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It's a really close call :)

Olympiastadion Berlin - 52.515 N
Alte Försterei - 52.458 N
Volkswagen Arena - 52.435 N
 


How do we feel about this? On one hand he steadied the ship after the club almost got relegated, but on the other hand he's a midtable coach through and through and doesn't fit their big city club ambitions at all. Only extending the arrangement for one season also doesn't speak of a lot of confidence.
I think they needed to replace him with a more progressive coach.
 
do.ob said:


How do we feel about this? On one hand he steadied the ship after the club almost got relegated, but on the other hand he's a midtable coach through and through and doesn't fit their big city club ambitions at all. Only extending the arrangement for one season also doesn't speak of a lot of confidence.
I think they needed to replace him with a more progressive coach.
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Maybe they deem their chances of signing such a coach as relatively low given that Dortmund, Leipzig, Leverkusen, Frankfurt, Wolfsburg and Gladbach all need(ed) to appoint one as well?

One year down the road they would have less competition. Could possibly go for Matarazzo or Werner who might want to make the next step in 2022.
 
Zehner said:
Maybe they deem their chances of signing such a coach as relatively low given that Dortmund, Leipzig, Leverkusen, Frankfurt, Wolfsburg and Gladbach all need(ed) to appoint one as well?

One year down the road they would have less competition. Could possibly go for Matarazzo or Werner who might want to make the next step in 2022.
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Most of these clubs just swapped coaches that were out of reach for Hertha anyway. The only ones where they might have had a shot were Seoane and van Bommel.

I know it's not exactly a scientific model, but the year before Windhorst started buying the club their squad value on TM was €207m, two years and €100m net spend later it's €218m. They sold their club and they decided to invest most of the money into players rather than mid to long term projects (new stadium/academy/infrastructure), so now they need to generate some market value in the short term, before their contracts start to run out. Otherwise the money will be gone forever.
 
Cheimoon said:
What's the background to this and what might it mean in practice for Wolfsburg, Leverkusen, RBL, and Hoffenheim? (I know they're in different situations.)
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Martin Kind, Hannover's president, wanted to pursue legal action against 50+1 in order to buy the club, Hannover's fans eventually put an end to that ambition. But if I remember correctly the question about the legalities of the 50+1 rule lived on and this ruling is supposed to clarify things.
I have no idea what it means in practice, this is uncharted territory. Best case is that they really cut out all exceptions, worst case is that they can't legally force Bayer and VW to give up control of their assets and 50+1 will be abolished, because the "Kartellamt" rules that an inconsistent application is unlawful. Leipzig in particular will be an interesting case, since they get around the rule, by only giving voting rights parent company execs, forcing them to stop that discrimination sounds easy to implement, but could kill their entire business model.
 
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do.ob said:
Martin Kind, Hannover's president, wanted to pursue legal action against 50+1 in order to buy the club, Hannover's fans eventually put an end to that ambition. But if I remember correctly the question about the legalities of the 50+1 rule lived on and this ruling is supposed to clarify things.
I have no idea what it means in practice, this is uncharted territory. Best case is that they really cut out all exceptions, worst case is that they can't legally force Bayer and VW to give up control of their assets and 50+1 will be abolished, because the "Kartellamt" rules that an inconsistent application is unlawful. Leipzig in particular will be an interesting case, since they get around the rule, by only giving voting rights parent company execs, forcing them to stop that discrimination sounds easy to implement, but could kill their entire business model.
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Yeah, I was wondering about those in particular. (I don't know what Hoffenheim's structure/status is.) As for Leipzig, I don't know how specifically the 50+1 rule is defined now, but given Leipzig got away with their current structure, I imagine forcing changes there would involve getting into detail about membership numbers in a way that hasn't happened yet. That sounds like potentially complex.
 
Cheimoon said:
Yeah, I was wondering about those in particular. (I don't know what Hoffenheim's structure/status is.) As for Leipzig, I don't know how specifically the 50+1 rule is defined now, but given Leipzig got away with their current structure, I imagine forcing changes there would involve getting into detail about membership numbers in a way that hasn't happened yet. That sounds like potentially complex.
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As far as I know Hopp initially controlled the club through financial dependance and later officially bought it via a clause that allows people to do so after continuous and significant financial support of a club for 20 or 30 years or something like that. He's basically in the same boat as Bayer and VW, though being a private citizen with a huge ego he might be more open to going back to control via dependance.

The thing about Leipzig is that as far as I know their statues are fairly standard and it's only the caveat of voter discrimination that allows the full control of the club. Demanding clubs not to discriminate when it comes to membership or voting in general sounds like something I could see being part of the licensing. It's a somewhat minor change on paper that only has huge consequences, because Leipzig use it to circumvent 50+1.
Telling Bayer or VW that they have to change the whole organizational structure of their football divisions and hand over control of these assets to mere fans looks like an infinitely bigger deal on paper, that offers much more avenues for legal objections.

I guess in the end it depends on how far "our competition, our rules" will get DFL.
 
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Zehner said:
In essence, old money vs new money
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Who is "new money" in this case? Bayer AG founded some 150 years ago? VW, founded by Nazis?

The essence is an official goverment institution telling DFL to cut out long standing exceptions to guarantee a fair competition for all.
 
DFL have published the financial overview for the 19/20 season:

https://www.dfl.de/de/aktuelles/dfl...len-der-proficlubs-geschaeftsjahresende-2020/

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I'm still surprised that Leverkusen manage to keep their wage bill basically on par with Leipzig, however given such spending one fourth place finish in the last five years might be cause for concern. Union and Gladbach were of course the big success stories of that season.
 
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do.ob said:
Who is "new money" in this case? Bayer AG founded some 150 years ago? VW, founded by Nazis?

The essence is an official goverment institution telling DFL to cut out long standing exceptions to guarantee a fair competition for all.
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Still struggling to see what's fair about a competition in which the elite can't be challenged by anyone. "Ensuring a competition characterized by clubs" sure is a weird way of spelling "ensuring that those who are at the top remain at the top".

You are really bringing the Nazis into this? Jesus :lol:
 
Zehner said:
Still struggling to see what's fair about a competition in which the elite can't be challenged by anyone. "Ensuring a competition characterized by clubs" sure is a weird way of spelling "ensuring that those who are at the top remain at the top".

You are really bringing the Nazis into this? Jesus :lol:
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A fair competition is when everyone has to abide by the same rules. Do you think the motive of the official cartel office is to look out for certain football clubs?

And it's not my fault that VW was founded the way it was or that you try to label Wolfsburg and Leverkusen, who are owned by these companies and have been part of the league for decades, as "new money".
 
Zehner said:
Still struggling to see what's fair about a competition in which the elite can't be challenged by anyone. "Ensuring a competition characterized by clubs" sure is a weird way of spelling "ensuring that those who are at the top remain at the top".

You are really bringing the Nazis into this? Jesus :lol:
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good old classic Godwin's law
 
do.ob said:
A fair competition is when everyone has to abide by the same rules. Do you think the objective of the official cartel office is to look out for certain football clubs?

And it's not my fault that VW was founded the way it was or that you try to label Wolfsburg and Leverkusen, who are owned by these companies and have been part of the league for decades, as "new money".
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So if the rules indirectly have it that nobody can challenge the players at the top, the competition is fair, as long as everybody sticks to them? That's an interesting take :) The advocates of 50 + 1 are interested in many things and some of them might actually be of a romantic/noble nature, but a fair competition certainly isn't part of that.


Rektsanwalt said:
good old classic Godwin's law
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Yeah, but usually it takes some time before they are mentioned, not at the start of the conversaton :boring:
 
How will Germany line up in the euros?
Few Chelsea boys in there so I will keep an eye out.
Rudi is in unbelievable form right now.
Kai is coming to you off the biggest high he could ever get in club football scoring the winner in the cl final.
Fix timos finishing for us.
 
Zehner said:
So if the rules indirectly have it that nobody can challenge the players at the top, the competition is fair, as long as everybody sticks to them? That's an interesting take :) The advocates of 50 + 1 are interested in many things and some of them might actually be of a romantic/noble nature, but a fair competition certainly isn't part of that.
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That's your subjective interpretation and unfortunately most people don't seem to share it.

Pow said:
How will Germany line up in the euros?
Few Chelsea boys in there so I will keep an eye out.
Rudi is in unbelievable form right now.
Kai is coming to you off the biggest high he could ever get in club football scoring the winner in the cl final.
Fix timos finishing for us.
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I wouldn't be surprised if Löw himself doesn't know yet. Rüdiger should have a good chance of playing CB together with Hummels. Havertz might get passed over for Müller. Werner's role is even more open.
 
do.ob said:
DFL have published the financial overview for the 19/20 season:

https://www.dfl.de/de/aktuelles/dfl...len-der-proficlubs-geschaeftsjahresende-2020/

tXvrfac.png


I'm still surprised that Leverkusen manage to keep their wage bill basically on par with Leipzig, however given such spending one fourth place finish in the last five years might be cause for concern. Union and Gladbach were of course the big success stories of that season.
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Lets have some fun and calculate how effective they spend their wages that season:
ClubPointsMoneyPoints/Million €
Paderborn20181.111
Union Berlin41371.108
Freiburg48490.978
Düsseldorf30380.789
Augsburg36480.750
Mainz37530.698
Borussia Mönchengladbach651040.625
Hoffenheim52840.619
Frankfurt45840.536
Köln36700.514
Hertha Berlin41800.513
Bayer Leverkusen631400.450
RB Leipzig661470.449
Werder Bremen31710.437
Wolfsburg491240.395
Schalke391110.351
Borussia Dortmund692150.321
Bayern Munich823400.241

Some things are really interesting here I believe. Top quality obviously costs a premium (Dortmund and Bayern being dead last), while the two clubs who got directly relegated are among the most effective in terms of their money usage - they just lacked the money.

And this table shows just how good the work at Freiburg and Union is - amongst the last in amount of wage budget, in safe midfield in the real table.
 
do.ob said:
That's your subjective interpretation and unfortunately most people don't seem to share it.
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Why don't we just vote the Bundesliga champion? That way we could just ditch all the unnecessary on the pitch stuff and make this a true popularity contest :)
 
Zehner said:
Why don't we just vote the Bundesliga champion? That way we could just ditch all the unnecessary on the pitch stuff and make this a true popularity contest :)
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Would be the same outcome anyway.
 
do.ob said:
That's your subjective interpretation and unfortunately most people don't seem to share it.



I wouldn't be surprised if Löw himself doesn't know yet. Rüdiger should have a good chance of playing CB together with Hummels. Havertz might get passed over for Müller. Werner's role is even more open.
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Do you have the players for 3 at the back ? Or will it be a back 4 ?
 
After seeing all that unfolded last month with the European Super League, I can't understand why anyone would be in favor of having your club owned by one person who has the full authority to make decisions without any oversight.
 
Pow said:
Do you have the players for 3 at the back ? Or will it be a back 4 ?
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I think Low will revert to 3 at the back again with Rudiger, Hummels and Sule/Ginter. Don't have someone who can play as a lone striker so it's better to try with 2 forwards amongst Sane, Gnabry, Muller, Havertz and Werner. Behind them in midfield you can play Kimmich, Goretzka, Kroos/Gundogan/Havertz etc.
 
hasanejaz88 said:
After seeing all that unfolded last month with the European Super League, I can't understand why anyone would be in favor of having your club owned by one person who has the full authority to make decisions without any oversight.
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Let's talk again after Bayern has won 18 out of the last 20 titles or so ;) There are already many fans of smaller clubs who say they'd be okay with the ESL because it makes the Bundesliga interesting again. And they're getting more and more with every additional year of Bayern dominance. Also, there can be oversight.
 
hasanejaz88 said:
After seeing all that unfolded last month with the European Super League, I can't understand why anyone would be in favor of having your club owned by one person who has the full authority to make decisions without any oversight.
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Well for the clubs in question the ruling is an existential threat.


Zehner said:
Let's talk again after Bayern has won 18 out of the last 20 titles or so ;) There are already many fans of smaller clubs who say they'd be okay with the ESL because it makes the Bundesliga interesting again. And they're getting more and more with every additional year of Bayern dominance. Also, there can be oversight.
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The latest survey I could find on google counted 82.8% against loosening 50+1 and counted 72.6% as believing 50+1 is a net positive for Clubs.

https://www.sport1.de/fussball/bund...ga-barometer-fans-beim-thema-50-1-regel-einig
 
do.ob said:
The latest survey I could find on google counted 82.8% against loosening 50+1 and counted 72.6% as believing 50+1 is a net positive for Clubs.

https://www.sport1.de/fussball/bund...ga-barometer-fans-beim-thema-50-1-regel-einig
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And what is that supposed to tell me? I was talking about the acceptance of the ESL, not the support of 50 + 1. German fans love 50 + 1, that's not even a debate. They will never want to ditch it, it's the typically German resistance to change. Did you ever hear of natural monopolies and what happens if they remain unregulated? This is what's waiting for the Bundesliga if 50 + 1 remains in place.

Do you know what many fans of smaller clubs answer you when you ask them what they think about Bayern leaving the league for the ESL? They answer you "so what, let them leave". The resistance to the ESL will get lesser and lesser with every year in Germany. Because in the end, football is entertainment and if the league fails to entertain over a sustained period of time, no tradition or nostalgia is going to save it. And it doesn't matter if the fight for top 4 or against relegation is interesting. In the end, nobody truly cares about the golden pineapple. Sports live from the dynamic that everybody can win and the further you move from this principle, the quicker they die.
 
Zehner said:
And what is that supposed to tell me? I was talking about the acceptance of the ESL, not the support of 50 + 1. German fans love 50 + 1, that's not even a debate. They will never want to ditch it, it's the typically German resistance to change. Did you ever hear of natural monopolies and what happens if they remain unregulated? This is what's waiting for the Bundesliga if 50 + 1 remains in place.

Do you know what many fans of smaller clubs answer you when you ask them what they think about Bayern leaving the league for the ESL? They answer you "so what, let them leave". The resistance to the ESL will get lesser and lesser with every year in Germany. Because in the end, football is entertainment and if the league fails to entertain over a sustained period of time, no tradition or nostalgia is going to save it. And it doesn't matter if the fight for top 4 or against relegation is interesting. In the end, nobody truly cares about the golden pineapple. Sports live from the dynamic that everybody can win and the further you move from this principle, the quicker they die.
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https://yougov.de/news/2021/04/23/drei-viertel-der-deutschen-fussball-fans-hatten-su/

74% polled as not interested in watching the super league. Apparently even more so among the fans of clubs who weren't designated founding members.

I could also tell you that between Leipzig and Bayern most fans would still prefer Bayern to win their 10th title rather than Leipzig winning their first or that for the cup final a lot of Schalke fans couldn't bring themselves to support the opponent of their hated rival. But what are these statements really worth without corroborating numbers?
 
do.ob said:
https://yougov.de/news/2021/04/23/drei-viertel-der-deutschen-fussball-fans-hatten-su/

74% polled as not interested in watching the super league. Apparently even more so among the fans of clubs who weren't designated founding members.

I could also tell you that between Leipzig and Bayern most fans would still prefer Bayern to win their 10th title rather than Leipzig winning their first or that for the cup final a lot of Schalke fans couldn't bring themselves to support the opponent of their hated rival. But what are these statements really worth without corroborating numbers?
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You're not really getting my point. I didn't say that they would watch it. I said they'd be okay with Bayern leaving the league they watch. And yes, Leipzig winning the league would probably disappoint lots of people but indifference is worse than disappointment. And nobody cares about a competition that is boring 8 out of 10 years. Predictability keeps nobody engaged. And if there's no engagement, there will be less resistance to the ESL. And maybe the format Bundesliga actually deserves to die, then, because it ultimately failed. IMO it is clear as day that something needs to happen because if nothing happens, the BuLi is spiralling into irrelevancy. There's no light at the end of the tunnel, we're heading towards a dead end if we don't change the course.

Edit: Just to illustrate how one sided the league is: Since 1994 (!) it only occured twice (!) that Bayern went two years without a league title. Both times Dortmund won two consecutive Bundesliga trophies. Since the last time this happened, Bayern won 9 leagues in a row. They won 18 out of the last 30 years, 14 out of the last 20 and 9 out of the last 10. This isn't even developing in the right direction, it's actually aggravating.
 
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Zehner said:
You're not really getting my point. I didn't say that they would watch it. I said they'd be okay with Bayern leaving the league they watch. And yes, Leipzig winning the league would probably disappoint lots of people but indifference is worse than disappointment. And nobody cares about a competition that is boring 8 out of 10 years. Predictability keeps nobody engaged. And if there's no engagement, there will be less resistance to the ESL. And maybe the format Bundesliga actually deserves to die, then, because it ultimately failed. IMO it is clear as day that something needs to happen because if nothing happens, the BuLi is spiralling into irrelevancy. There's no light at the end of the tunnel, we're heading towards a dead end if we don't change the course.

Edit: Just to illustrate how one sided the league is: Since 1994 (!) it only occured twice (!) that Bayern went two years without a league title. Both times Dortmund won two consecutive Bundesliga trophies. Since the last time this happened, Bayern won 9 leagues in a row. They won 18 out of the last 30 years, 14 out of the last 20 and 9 out of the last 10. This isn't even developing in the right direction, it's actually aggravating.
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So your point is that Bayern are (too) dominant? Did anyone ever doubt that? And to keep people engaged you're proposing changes which they overwhelmingly reject and might actually cause a chunk of them to quit the sport immediately?
 
Zehner said:
And what is that supposed to tell me? I was talking about the acceptance of the ESL, not the support of 50 + 1. German fans love 50 + 1, that's not even a debate. They will never want to ditch it, it's the typically German resistance to change. Did you ever hear of natural monopolies and what happens if they remain unregulated? This is what's waiting for the Bundesliga if 50 + 1 remains in place.
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Investors are not a charity. Folks like 50+1 because it prevents "Englische Verhältnisse", where you have to fork out small fortunes for even the cheapest tickets.

Zehner said:
Do you know what many fans of smaller clubs answer you when you ask them what they think about Bayern leaving the league for the ESL? They answer you "so what, let them leave". The resistance to the ESL will get lesser and lesser with every year in Germany. Because in the end, football is entertainment and if the league fails to entertain over a sustained period of time, no tradition or nostalgia is going to save it. And it doesn't matter if the fight for top 4 or against relegation is interesting. In the end, nobody truly cares about the golden pineapple. Sports live from the dynamic that everybody can win and the further you move from this principle, the quicker they die.
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Those fans of smaller clubs I know, mainly Mainz & Einracht fans, as this is the area I live in, couldn't care less if Bayern win their 10th consecutive title or not. Because they know, they still wouldn't be the ones to have won it were Bayern not there. And yes, if approached with a choice between Bayern's 20th title in a row, or Bayer's very first they'd all go with the former option, easily.
The hardest tickets to get in a BuLi season in any stadium, are those for Bayern games. Why? Because as you've said, football is about entertainment. And a big part of this entertainment for fans of the smaller clubs is seeing them play a true elite team in the league. Seeing world class players, hoping for a nice Lederhosen ausziehen, that kind of stuff.
And if you think a step further, you'll realize, that there is no ESL with just Bayern as a German participant. If it ever came to fruition, it would contain Dortmund and very probably a third club as well. And then you're left with a league where the title race might be unpredictable, while still nobody cares, because it'd be won by nobodies.
 
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