I do think that any feint title hope evaporated with Nagelsmann's exit and if Dortmund can get their things in order they should be relatively comfortable ahead of Leipzig again. But, aside from some problems at the striker position, there is still a lot of quality in Leipzig's squad and also quite importantly depth! Looking at it from the other way around, who do you think will usurp them? Frankfurt and Wolfsburg? Not a chance in my opinion. Gladbach I could imagine. But Leverkusen already seems a stretch.
German Football 20/21
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I do think that any feint title hope evaporated with Nagelsmann's exit and if Dortmund can get their things in order they should be relatively comfortable ahead of Leipzig again. But, aside from some problems at the striker position, there is still a lot of quality in Leipzig's squad and also quite importantly depth! Looking at it from the other way around, who do you think will usurp them? Frankfurt and Wolfsburg? Not a chance in my opinion. Gladbach I could imagine. But Leverkusen already seems a stretch.
Apologies then, I thought the comment as in regards to MLS players being purchased by European clubs.
Could be that you're right and 3rd is more likely.
But I'd want to wait until more decisions are final (who will take over Frankfurt, who will take over Leverkusen, will Konaté leave on top of Upamecano and will another top player go, Sabitzer for example..), and right now my feeling is towards them having to struggle for top 4 to a much higher extent.
That's not meant to be a slight on Marsch, his Salzburg were all over us like a hurricane when we beat them.... 6-2
I'm referring to what the league's top players would cost, as those are the ones of interest to European teams.
I think the comment was meant to say that the intra-US market is rich and that's why players might be comparatively overpriced for a league like Bundesliga, in relation to the talent pool of other nations.
But I'm not sure whether that's true. I feel a main problem is that the difference in the way the leagues and the system work might make it hard to judge players.
Yes, that was my point. It's one thing to sign talents that are more or less for "free", but it's another topic entirely, when you have to sign established players and commit significant fees you could just as well spend in e.g. France. It's impossible for me to judge how good or bad MLS really is, so I'm basically just guessing that MLS top player = regular midtable player in a EU top 5 league.
Well, Phonzie was a veritable steal, so
To prevent the thread from getting derailed, let's move the current North-American-related discussions over to the relevant U.S.-soccer threads (or create a new thread if you guys want ).
Regardless of what we think of Jesse Marsch, at least Leipzig's squad is one of the best in the Bundesliga. At their very worst, they're the third-best team in the league, and despite losing Upamecano and possibly Konaté, they do have two young, promising defenders coming up to take their place in both Josko Gvardiol and Mohamed Simakan. That's the key for them: they have a pipeline of promising young players that come through and take the place of those who depart, which should ideally protect them from going downhill, though Dortmund have shown that this approach doesn't necessarily fully protect you.
).Regardless of what we think of Jesse Marsch, at least Leipzig's squad is one of the best in the Bundesliga. At their very worst, they're the third-best team in the league, and despite losing Upamecano and possibly Konaté, they do have two young, promising defenders coming up to take their place in both Josko Gvardiol and Mohamed Simakan. That's the key for them: they have a pipeline of promising young players that come through and take the place of those who depart, which should ideally protect them from going downhill, though Dortmund have shown that this approach doesn't necessarily fully protect you.
I only know Marsch from our CL ties against Salzburg, and there, it sounds like a joke, but they really were all over us like a hurricaneTo prevent the thread from getting derailed, let's move the current North-American-related discussions over to the relevant U.S.-soccer threads (or create a new thread if you guys want
Regardless of what we think of Jesse Marsch, at least Leipzig's squad is one of the best in the Bundesliga. At their very worst, they're the third-best team in the league, and despite losing Upamecano and possibly Konaté, they do have two young, promising defenders coming up to take their place in both Josko Gvardiol and Mohamed Simakan. That's the key for them: they have a pipeline of promising young players that come through and take the place of those who depart, which should ideally protect them from going downhill, though Dortmund have shown that this approach doesn't necessarily protect you.
Just couldn't score to save their lives.
So I think he might be a spectacular coach, but I don't share you belief in the quality of Leipzig's squad. The depth is good, yes, but the at the top it's lacking.
We can't forget that Nagelsmann has not been a normal coach, but a magician, a miracle worker.
I agree. Nagelsmann's a special coach and the primary reason behind Leipzig mounting a title challenge this season. With that said, I can see where your concerns lie. They've yet to adequately replace Werner, and they're losing two good centre backs in Upamecano and Konaté. With that said, I don't think that they'll necessarily encounter a sudden drop, but I can obviously be wrong.
It doesn't have to be a massive drop to see them sucked into a tough top 4 battle with no guarantee of making it, just look at BVB, Leverkusen, Gladbach.
I'm only meaning to disagree with @do.ob 's statement of top 4 being a 'given' for RB barring the team falling apart.
You have a point, of course. We've seen better teams get sucked into top 4 battles in the past, though there is so, so much uncertainty now given the coaching changes across the CL-competing sides in Germany. At this point, I'm only evaluating the teams on paper, and Leipzig definitely have one of the best squads around.
Arugably both Gladbach and Dortmund were properly falling apart for large parts of this season. The Corona schedule/lack of winter break must have also been a huge problem for the teams playing a Europe and a significant factor behind Frankfurt and Wolfsburg pulling ahead of them. I wouldn't draw too many conclusions based on this season.
That is true.
But even then a) an improved/restored BVB and Gladbach will make Leipzig's top 4 challenge harder, not easier, and b) it was, I believe, yourself who commented how remarkable it was that Nagelsmann managed to keep Leipzig clear of the Corona schedule form breakdowns and firmly above the top 4 fight.
If we take into account that Nagelsmann is a significant loss (I haven't seen Hoffenheim in CL in a while..) and that BVB will be back to challenge for 2nd, at the least, my prediction is that Leipzig will no longer be the 2nd best team as they were, and that they will struggle to make top 4. Squad quality, I find it hard to judge it on paper, without the context of a coach's work and vision.
We'll see.
Proper predictions will only make sense after the transfer window, anyway.
Nagelsmann's done a good job, but I still rate their squad quite highly. They lacked a good striker this season, and their squad doesn't have obvious stars but there's lots of good players and those with good potential. Obviously if they lose Sabitzer, Konate or someone else those will have to be replaced.
I feel like they have a lot of similar players, and their level doesn't differ too much either, so that gives a bit of an illusion of depth without too many players really standing out? As in the drop off to the bench is small, but on the other hand maybe their starting eleven isn't as strong as it could be. Maybe that's just my impression, but it will be interesting to see how Marsch utilises that squad.
Why did they sell Cunha by the way?
I feel like they have a lot of similar players, and their level doesn't differ too much either, so that gives a bit of an illusion of depth without too many players really standing out? As in the drop off to the bench is small, but on the other hand maybe their starting eleven isn't as strong as it could be. Maybe that's just my impression, but it will be interesting to see how Marsch utilises that squad.
Why did they sell Cunha by the way?
With Hwang and Szoboszlai, they of course have completely untapped quality in the squad still (which might have been off my radar), players no less that have flourished under Marsch before. Still, they are players that so far only excelled at Salzburg, not at a higher level.
But while I'm making wild predictions, I'll just add another one:
Freiburg will get relegated due to moving into a new stadium. It will break their mojo.
But while I'm making wild predictions, I'll just add another one:
Freiburg will get relegated due to moving into a new stadium. It will break their mojo.
My next prediction: Hamburg will bottle it again and stay in the second league for another year. Just played against Karlsruhe 1-1, that means 3 draws and 3 losses in the last 6 games. Their only hope is that Kiel could also bottle it due to their tight schedule (HSV has only 3 games left to play, Kiel 6 in the league and additionally at least the semi-final of the cup, possibly also the final).
It's not that I strongly disagree with you on Leipzig, I just think that between losing their coaches and probably some key players and having to play European midweek fixtures Frankfurt and Wolfsburg won't be part of the top four battle and then (on paper) it's basically only Dortmund, Leipzig, Gladbach and Leverkusen left for three slots. Who each have their own issues, Leverkusen for example might be coached by Hannes Wolf for all we know.
My home town (SV Darmstadt 98) club actually only secured staying in the league on Monday and the hilarious thing is they are now closer to Hamburg than the relegation places.
So yeah I'm with you Hamburg is en route to their yearly bottle job.
At this point it's has to be a psychological trauma, like Schalke or Leverkusen with the Bundesliga title, right? I mean Hamburg actually seem to have accepted their reality, they are trying to sign decent coaches and they are giving them the full season. Their results are also sufficient for the most part, so it's not like their squad is simply too bad. They just keel over as soon as they get within sight of the finish line.
Come to think of it, Gulasci might be a great upgrade for Dortmund for that small fee. He's not world class but certainly more reliable than Burki has ever been. Kobel would be a signing similar to what Burki was, a player with only one year of Bundesliga experience who looked talented but ultimately couldn't handle the high expectations. Gulasci has been playing with high expectations and in big matches for a couple of seasons already (though one can argue that Dortmund has higher pressure than at Leipzeg).
Reminds me of when United signed Van Der Sar. Similarly a very low-key, older, signing, who people didn't have high expectations for. Became a very consistent and solid keeper though unspectacular. Didn't reach the heights of some keepers during that era like Cech and Buffon but United didn't really need him to be, he was a massive upgrade over the erratic Howard and Carroll.
I wonder whether Leverkusen couldn't be an interesting option for ten Hag, too? Hard to say whether the lure of PLis greater on him. He also might be waiting to see whether Frankfurt play CL.
ten Hag just extended his contract with Ajax, he's off the market now.
Oh right! I wasn't aware. That's pretty cool actually.
And understandable, with the Bayern job taken
If we forget for a moment that he extended his contract:
Why? In every respect but league that would be a considerable downgrade for him. And for what long term perspective? Bayern and Dortmund already changed coaches twice since he had his break through at Ajax, clearly they don't seem to be that interested in him - or vice versa.
Yeah I really can't blame him for choosing to stay at Ajax when his options are Frankfurt, Leverkusen, Leipzig, or even Spurs.
I do believe that Bayern are interested in him, generally, but not in preference to Nagelsmann.
Like it or not, there are definitely profound arguments for Leverkusen from Ten Hag's perspective. Whether they're enough to tempt him is a different matter entirely.
I think people underestimate what he's got at Ajax, he's coaching the most prestigious club of his home country, he's playing for the title every year (instead of joining the rather bland grind for a top four spot at e.g. Leverkusen) and their teams have been pretty decent in recent years. So if he isn't desperate to coach in one of the top leagues I don't see why he would give that up for a club that doesn't realistically intend to win silverware.
On the other hand, there is no challenge left for him at Ajax, except doing well in the CL, which is extremely hard and he anyway already reached the semis once. Otherwise, he can only repeat what he's done or fail. Plus the lower end of the Eredivisie features clubs that would hopelessly relegate from the 2. BL or English Championship, and stadiums that would be tiny in the 3. BL. (But I see there are also stadiums below 10k in the English League One!)
Also, if Ten Hag really wants to make his way up internationally, it might make sense for him to go to a subtop club in a top league, to prove himself in a different and more competitive environment. I mean, while dominating the Eredivisie with Ajax certainly isn't a given, it might be a more impressive accomplishment, and more noticeable to the European top clubs, to achieve a strong season with a club like Leverkusen or Spurs - even if that would only result in CL qualification and a decent cup runs.
Not that this is the better perspective; I'm just trying to say that, after some years at Ajax, I'd get it if Ten Hag would think like this. (Him renewing his contract might indicate that he's more of your mind; but he might also be doing like their players and guaranteeing Ajax a nice transfer fee in case of his departure.)
Of course, that's more or less what I had in mind when I wrote about him possibly wanting to move to a bigger league. And for such reasons I wouldn't be surprised to see him join Tottenham. But Leverkusen (or Frankfurt, Wolfsburg, etc)? Unlike Leverkusen Tottenham have a lot of money to spend on players, unlike Leverkusen he would get the opportunity to prove himself under real pressure and scrutiny and unlike Leverkusen he would get the opportunity to prove that he can manage high profile players.
Doing well at Tottenham puts him on the menu of a lot of big clubs and even if things don't go perfectly: once you're part of the PL circus you can probably get a couple of high paying jobs until it spits you out for good. I don't think making top four with Leverkusen is nearly as beneficial for someone's reputation and if things don't go well he'd have to take a low paying low prestige job at some Bundesliga midtable club or retreat back to Holland.
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Yeah, that's true. Bosz will likely have to make his way back up now through a club that's below Leverkusen's stature, at which point he's definitely some levels below Ajax.
For Spurs, I guess it depends on how wrong it goes really. I mean, Frank de Boer has probably made himself completely impossible in the EPL through his stint at Crystal Palace. Of course, he has some other negative bagage as well (basically every club coaching job he's had outside Ajax!). But there's also the factor that Ten Hag might be more attuned to the Bundesliga philosophically. Although on the other hand there are now also several EPL top clubs that align with Ten Hag's approach (Man City, Leicester, Liverpool; possibly Chelsea once Tuchel further implements his thinking there), paving the way for people like Ten Hag.
If you turn out to be a disaster then you are of course in trouble either way, but I assume the mid to lower table clubs in England pay a lot better than their German counter parts. Philosophically I don't think it makes a huge difference these days. PL clubs have caught up a lot over the past couple of years and while Bundesliga clubs in general are fairly good at implementing a cohesive pressing/transition based idea from top to bottom that's not so much the case for positional ideas, those tend to rely more on the coach himself.
Sargent missing a sitter.. maybe should have gone down to try to get a pen?
I was thinking about Wolfsburg, then I was thinking about Schmadtke, then I remembered Hannover and the time they were qualifying for EL, and then a question struck me: What the hell has Mirko Slomka been up to? Has the guy just completely stopped coaching? He was one of HSV's victims, and that's about the last thing I remember from him (apart from maybe some questionable contributions to some public political discourse, there was something)
But where is he?
I was thinking about Wolfsburg, then I was thinking about Schmadtke, then I remembered Hannover and the time they were qualifying for EL, and then a question struck me: What the hell has Mirko Slomka been up to? Has the guy just completely stopped coaching? He was one of HSV's victims, and that's about the last thing I remember from him (apart from maybe some questionable contributions to some public political discourse, there was something)
But where is he?
Lost his job in Hannover at the end of 2019 and hasn't been hired since. As far as I know he's still willing to coach though.
Minute 78 - still 0:0
I wanted pens
We'll see how they perform. From what I've read about both of them, though, they're both very talented, and both are capable of playing at the highest level. With Simakan in particular, both Chelsea and AC Milan were strongly linked with him.
The one time i was excited about something fecking Bittencourt did and they come up empty handedI wanted pens
Not the most surprising news either.
Not surprising, but important for them. Now they can involve him in getting a new coach (he might officially start working next month, but I'm sure he will already give a go/no-go for the candidates Frankfurt have).