The top 4 battle in Germany is very exciting. Big win by Dortmund today, and Leverkusen - Frankfurt will be interesting
German Football 20/21
- Thread starter do.ob
- Start date
Dortmund have Leverkusen, Mainz and Leipzig on their plate and they are in no way dominating. I think it's still 70% at least that Frankfurt and Wolfsburg will keep their spots.
On the other hand, and this is even less likely, Leipzig still face both Dortmund and Wolfsburg. If they somehow lose against Stuttgart tomorrow they could actually end up sweating over top four again.
My table was a little bit older. Schalke was still fourth in the one I was referring to. Anyway, keep in mind that Leverkusen's salaries are the result of more or less 20 years of reliably qualifying for the international cups. I guarantee you that we wouldn't be able to pay salaries as high as Schalke's or Hamburg's if kept missing the minimum objectives repeatedly. So the one standing out is actually Wolfsburg which hasn't had any noticeable success this season aside.
And please, teach me about transfer expenditures. Because as far as I know, Leverkusen has a positive transfer balance over the last five years and still was very short of cash in the summer.
What's the difference exactly to Mainz or Freiburg? They have their sponsors who seek a return from their investments and we have Bayer who also seek a return from their investments. It's not like there are any sugar daddy clubs in the Bundesliga that have an investor who's not subservient to the laws of economy and can spend more than he earns.
That aside, your argument is a bit pointless. Leagues are leagues, you can monetize your reach in other ways and still utilize your popularity advantage. As I said: Your arguments are exactly the same as the ones proposed by Perez. Almost to the wording.
What do you expect me to do? Research the history for every club to derive which ventures were financed by borrowed capital and which by equity?
Well, if you want a quick example, take Juve's capital increase in 18/19. Or Inter's in 2005 and 2009 which were instrumental for them winning the CL.
A better chance? Man, Dortmund after more than 10 years of constant success and brillant management are nowhere near Bayern. One could even argue that the distance has increased.
Leverkusen has a balanced spending, because they haven't invested the Havertz money yet. If you dial things back a year the picture is quite different.
So please tell me again how these clubs just work that much more efficiently.
The difference is that Mainz and Freiburg can only spend what they earn on sporting merit. Whereas plastic clubs are quite disconnected from that dynamic. If Bayer pull the plug Leverkusen would play their next derby against Uerdingen. If Freiburg's sponsor goes bust they just get a new one.
So your examples are clubs that were already bigger than any other Bundesliga club bar Bayern to begin with and manouvered themselves into heavy debts. You know who also recently got (license for) a capital increase? Dortmund. If 50+1 was the obstacle for clubs to experience a rags to riches story, then it shouldn't be hard to spot these stories abroad. So if you can't find them I expect you to admit you're really asking for a state owned club, or stop making these arguments.
Well yesterday you wrote this:
What has changed since then?
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Frankfurt gifting Dortmund a chance of that 4th place, missed brilliant chances and then concede.
Leverkusen has a balanced spending, because they haven't invested the Havertz money yet. If you dial things back a year the picture is quite different.
So please tell me again how these clubs just work that much more efficiently.
Actually we have. Palacios, Demirbay and Wirtz were signed in anticipation of the eventual Havertz departure. Völler said as much in interviews. We're broke right now, in fact that was the reason why the Rashica signing failed and we tried to sign three loan players in Arias, Kolasinac and Rashica in one window. There's also the Gewinnabführungsklausel with Bayer that has lead to a surprisingly low transfer budget in some of the last years. Anyway, even if nothing of that would've been the case, I believe that 63 million over 5 years is hardly something crazy for a club that is constantly playing EL or CL.
I highly doubt that. As said, I believe you highly underestimate the impact professionalism has in this.
Yes, those are my examples. Could we now please stop wasting words? Because I can't imagine you seriously want to argue that being allowed to make such deals wouldn't heavily influence the financial capabilities and growth potential of a club. And I also highly doubt that you'd want to compare a football club making an IPO with a capital increase by an investor who owns more than 60% of the team.
Also, I'm pretty sure that the involvements of Ismaik, Kühne, Windhorst and Hopp would've look vastly different if 50 + 1 wasn't in place. Hopp even claimed that Hoffenheim wasn't his first choice if I'm not mistaken.
I honestly don't really get what you're aiming at? Bayern sacked their worst coach since Klinsmann and many players made a huge step or found form again under Flick, e. g. Alaba, Boateng, Goretzka, Kimmich, Coman, Müller, Perisic and Gnabry. I'm sure you agree that those names are seen fundamentally differently since compared to the start of the 2019 season.
Here's hoping that our savior Brazzo continues with his relentless pursuit to even the playing field but I have to admit I've got doubt in my heart. This mountain might prove to be too high for even him to climb.
Okay, so maybe it's just the modest €130m annually in wages for Leverkusen and the commendable EL finishes that really show the competition how it's done.
Mate, be honest here. Take a step back and reflect.
Are you honestly bragging about this beacon of professionalism?
How much of that supposed professionalism is actually just a lack of interest and thus scrutiny from the public?
Yes I do. Because no one is just going to endlessly pump money into a club out of the kindness of their heart, without expecting some kind of return - be it sports washing or what the Glazers do. And it's telling that the best you can come up with are two clubs who had better foundations than any Bundesliga club bar Bayern, who should be able to sustain themselves among the elite independently, yet - pressured by debt - appear desperate for a Super League that German clubs were able to reject.
The fact is that Bayern have a head start woth several decades over their competition, which means if they do their job well no one can match them. There is no easy way to fix that, unless we're talking something like Saudi ownership no one in their right mind is going to pump a fraction of what would be necessary, hundreds of millions every year, into a football club.
I see Frankfurt's forms gone to shit, they're gonna let Dortmund back in aren't they 
Shame would have been fecking hilarious seeing them in the Europa next season
Shame would have been fecking hilarious seeing them in the Europa next season
Yes, only the 130m salary budget at a club that qualified for international cups 16 times in the last 20 years of which 10 were for the UCL. Almost every other club would've had a much higher salary budget than we have with similarly sustainable success.
Mate, be honest here. Take a step back and reflect.
Are you honestly bragging about this beacon of professionalism?
How much of that supposed professionalism is actually just a lack of interest and thus scrutiny from the public?
Come on now, that's just distracting on your part. This had nothing to do with the management of a football club. The Bayern leadership has done far worse things although the club is among the most professional out there. To be honest, I'm a little bit disappointed. This was silly.
Well, that's pretty absurd take for me. I don't think it is debatable that easier access to funding means faster growth oppprtunities. Accelerated growth is faster than organic growth/bootstrapping. I mean, this is pretty much universal business knowledge. If you really disagree with that, and I still don't believe you actually do, then let's just agree to disagree.
I see Frankfurt's forms gone to shit, they're gonna let Dortmund back in aren't they
Shame would have been fecking hilarious seeing them in the Europa next season
I would hope so. No one wants to see Frankfurt in the CL, well apart from Eintracht fans of course. Btw same goes for Wolfsburg, ugh such an awful club and "city".
I'd like Frankfurt in the CL. I also believe it'll be the case sooner or later, their club is developing pretty well. They could take a similar development as Dortmund long term.
He scored 12 goals in his first 19 games and has only scored once in the 16 games since then. Hard to tell what the problem is...he's still a good player but he's clearly thinking too much about his dry spell.
Hertha being a bit shit and completely relying on Cunha to create space probably didn't help him too much.
Dribbles per 90:
1. Cunha 5.52
2. Lukebakio 3.23
3. Mittelstädt 2.04
I personally hope for relegation and bankruptcy when it comes to Frankfurt. Then again my hometown club are die Lilien, so I might be a bit biased when it comes to judging Frankfurt.
I will rather see Frankfurt in Europe than Wolfsburg
Definitely, and he doesn't seem to trust some of his teammates...but last year's situation was even worse (he arrived while Nouri was still coach) and he pretty much singlehandedly kept Hertha afloat during that time.
There have been reports of him dealing with groin issues for quite some time though. I wouldn't be surprised if he'd be better off getting surgery but they've decided he's too important to miss signficant time this season.
They have been doing really well recently but I would not necessarily extrapolate that to future successes. This summer they need to replace their coach and their sporting director, not sure if any players are heading out as well. Will be interesting to see how they deal with this rather significant change.
That being said I would generally like to see them in the CL, just not at the expense of Dortmund
Wolfsburg and Leipzig however can feck right off.They have been doing really well recently but I would not necessarily extrapolate that to future successes. This summer they need to replace their coach and their sporting director, not sure if any players are heading out as well. Will be interesting to see how they deal with this rather significant change.
That being said I would generally like to see them in the CL, just not at the expense of Dortmund
I recently read that Frankfurt has increased their commercial revenue by 60% in the last few years and are revenue-wise in the top 20 in Europe now. That's stuff which is relatively independent of on the pitch success and really impressive, IMO. Of course this is not guaranteeing anything, as Schalke has proved this season, but it definitely makes screwing up a bit harder
I expect them to drop a level in the short term but bounce back eventually.What's going on here? Poached by Frankfurt? How long before papers bring up Rangnick?
So Nagelsmann might go to Bayern and Krösche to Frankfurt - that would mean that RB Leipzig is the next club to replace both coach and DoF for next season). And already today Markus Weinzierl is back as coach for Augsburg, who sacked Heiko Herrlich today. Really a lot of changes ongoing in the end of this season and in preparation for the next season. A lot of teams will look a bit different next year, that is for sure now.
Natural step would be Jesse Marsch (who wants to make the next step) from Salzburg to Leipzig. Probably Glasner from Wolfsburg would go home to Salzburg.
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Also still unclear if Hannes Wolf will stay at Leverkusen after the season or if he will return to his DFB U18 job (that he left on loan to Leverkusen).
Frankfurt is still looking for a new coach. Glasner to Frankfurt also seems to be possible. In that scenario Salzburg would need someone else.
Also still unclear if Hannes Wolf will stay at Leverkusen after the season or if he will return to his DFB U18 job (that he left on loan to Leverkusen).
Glasner is supposedly a bit homesick.
Understandable having moved from Salzburg to Wolfsburg.
I'm all for saying the you can visit die Autostadt only so often, but as far as I know the meta for Wolfsburg staff and players is to live in Berlin and make use of the quick train connection.
If I remember correctly Glasner's family stayed behind in Austria and in times of Corona that must have taken a heavy toll, even for a privileged football coach.
Kohfeldt might be yet another one to get sacked.
So - how many 1. BL clubs will be starting 2021-22 with the same coach as 2020-21? Union Berlin, Stuttgart, Wolfsburg, Freiburg, Hoffenheim, Mainz? Maybe Bielefeld?
Not quite the clubs you'd expect on that list
Midtable clubs that did fine. I guess that's where there is the least pressure as long as you're never in the relegation fight.
Glasner is supposedly eager to return to Austria, I wouldn't rule out Hoffenheim making a change after the season. Mainz and Bielefeld both sacked their coach already.
Yeah, I was thinking afterwards that I vaguely remembered something for Mainz as well.
OK, so that leaves Union Berlin, Stuttgart, Wolfsburg, Freiburg, and maybe Hoffenheim. That must be a record or close to one.
Add Werder Bremen to the list. They recently confirmed that Kohfeldt won't be sacked.
I guess the rumour was based on Werder Bremen being dragged back into a relegation battle, so that makes sense. Still, I know if there's anyone better than Kohfeldt currently available.
The media was reporting that they had board meetings and meetings with the player council about his future. Usually that spells the end, but I guess this time was different.
7 losses do well merit a sacking usually, but the fixture list was a bit rough as well:
Bayern, Wolfsburg, Leipzig, Dortmund - 4/7 games against top 5
Mainz has been performing on an EL+ level since they made their personnel adjustments
so that's leaves Berlin and Stuttgart, both upper half teams themselves, which they needed to make up points against.
Hi there. Good call there and i am surprised that Nagelsmann is ready to jump ship so soon. I expected him to stay for at least one more year.Hello
and regarding a transfer fee: coach is more important than a single player so Bayern will pay up. they are probably on good terms with Leipzig as well.
Not a call....ITK information.
If you are interested then i can tell you who will be the new "Sportdirektor" at Bayern.
Krösche?
I am interested!
Next round of rumours from Wolfsburg... the manager carousel is running at full speed...
Nagelsmann: Leipzig -> Bayern (confirmed)
Jesse Marsch: Salzburg -> Leipzig
Oliver Glasner: Wolfsburg -> Salzburg
Edin Terzic: Dortmund -> Wolfsburg
https://www.waz.de/sport/fussball/b...-mit-bvb-trainer-edin-terzic-id232151465.html
Looks like really no one wants to sign a coach who is currently without a job, all are signing from each other.
Nagelsmann: Leipzig -> Bayern (confirmed)
Jesse Marsch: Salzburg -> Leipzig
Oliver Glasner: Wolfsburg -> Salzburg
Edin Terzic: Dortmund -> Wolfsburg
https://www.waz.de/sport/fussball/b...-mit-bvb-trainer-edin-terzic-id232151465.html
Looks like really no one wants to sign a coach who is currently without a job, all are signing from each other.
Shocking developments over here