On point, sadly. But we weren't good in the second half. Diaby for example had an atrocious game. He also wasted much time before the pass to Tah.
German Football 20/21
- Thread starter do.ob
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On point, sadly. But we weren't good in the second half. Diaby for example had an atrocious game. He also wasted much time before the pass to Tah.
Pretty much, it's sad that after Boateng, Hummels and even Howedes we have Tah, Rudiger and Ginter. The drop in ability is massive, Sule is still there who is very good himself but other than him we're really struggling to find a young CB. I had a bit of hope for Tah because he was actually good up until a couple of seasons ago, but he has just regressed into an average defender.
All three were really talented at the start (though I never rated Rudiger), but Tah and Ginter have shown they don't have the mentality to make the jump from potential to world class. Ginter struggled at Dortmund and even at Gladbach, though he's become more consistent, he still has plenty of defensive issues that prevent him from being great. Tah has also eventually regressed.
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Goretzka and Kimmich were the preferred midfield pairing last season. They were outstanding together.
Thiago was the first to come in but lost his undisputed starting position. Probably also one reason he decided to leave and join Liverpool.
Great to have Kimmich back. With him on the pitch Bayern had this absolute will to win the match again. Deserved win albeit a little lucky because of deflection and 93rd minute.
And about the gegenpressing point, you need to control the game to be able to get the team pushed high up the pitch and the game condensed enough to even get in counterpressing positions.
That's the problem we've been struggling with since Thiago is gone. Our games are in vast stretches these end to end, up and down, back and forth, super open affairs that have the midfield constantly stretched and the team too rarely (compared to last season) actually in the position to exert a proper stranglehold.
It's also down to a lack of intensity and "Spritzigkeit", sure, but Thiago's ability to recycle the ball under pressure in pair with having well timed aggressiveness against the ball was contributing greatly to our domination of games.
Yeah, it shouldn't be that hard to just do it right. It's really just a simple thing to do, a trifle, and not doing it draws so much attention too. Why not just get it right. For 90 fecking minutes in front of cameras.
It also depends on the roles of the fullbacks. We usually play with very attacking fullbacks so inverted wingers make more sense. Sané and Davies on the left would just occupy the same spaces and runs.
Yes, Tah's development is unfortunately a Benjamin Button story. Looked much better as a 19 year old than he does now. I like him and had high hopes but at this stage I highly doubt he can get those errors out of his game.
That's not actually true though, is it. The pairing only was established when Thiago was injured, before, it was Thiago-Kimmich, while Goretzka was in and out of the team, mostly in a more advanced position.
And for the CL tournament, when Thiago was back, it was Thiago-Goretzka with Kimmich slotting in at RB for the injured Pavard.
So bottom line is, Thiago was always starting when available (except for a couple of games right after Flick took over), no matter how revisionist our fans get.
Classic Neverkusen. Sigh.
Watch Bayern go on a 10 match winning run after winter break to seal yet another title.
Watch Bayern go on a 10 match winning run after winter break to seal yet another title.
Thiago (like others) did not play very well at the beginning of last season and it seemed that he was out of form, too. And yes, Flick left him out of the team in his first weeks because of that. But in the following time one of Goretzka or Thiago was always injured - Kimmich and Müller being the steady partners team who adapted their play to both of them very well.
You can split the second part of the season in the league in two parts - one with Thiago - one with Goretzka after Corona. We scored in average the same amount of goals per match and had the same amount of goals against. But we had the better xG with Thiago.
For me the explanation for that is very easy because of the types of players. Goretzka gives us more power in the box - Thiago more creativity behind the box. So you cannot really see an advantage of any of them for the result - it is more a question of taste.
What we lost is the possibility to vary according to the opponent - and the possibility to have another top class midfielder as Tolisso right now is steps behind the other three central/defensive midfielders. I do not think that we would have gone through the last weeks without problems when we still would have (a fit) Thiago - but for sure easier. Hansi had to try to find other ways to overplay our own midfield.
What the hell was Marcus Thuram thinking spitting on the Hoffenheim player? I don’t know the rules in Germany, but in quite a lot of places in Europe he could be face legal charges for doing that in a pandemic.
What's he going to get: a fine? It's not like they'll give him jail time. The 5+ match ban he's looking at is far more painful for him and Gladbach, who can all but write off their top 4 ambitions already.
Only a madman would not put Thiago in prime Form into any starting eleven. Absolutely brilliant football player.
Okay maybe yes after another match for Mönchengladbach without a win.
Dortmund should easily get at least the 4th place if Haaland is back on field in January.........well but on the other side they could struggle if Terzic is the coach for a longer period (To concede another set-pieces goals was totally ridiculous).
Bayern Munich will now win easily the league again.
Depends on how well they manage to regenerate over the short Christmas break.
The worst part of the schedule is over, after new year it's mostly just the one game per week again until the CL slowly kicks off towards March. Bayern should have no major problems.
I also expect Leverkusen to drop off a bit: they overperformed their xG by close to 10 and xPts by over 6. They played good football, but their individual players don't seem like they can sustain such an overperformance.
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You love to see it!
Might be the case but the first half against Bayern gives hope. We were genuinely great during the first 45 minutes. We've had some good results against Munich in recent years but this was by far the best performance I can remember. It really looks like we reached the form of Bosz' first half season again. And players like Aranguiz, Palacios, Paulinho, Bendet and Arias will come back. We also achieved our points tallye with Tapsoba and Schick out for a sustained period who are already improving the squad. I'm really optimistic right now.
Let's be honest: between the murderous schedule, lack of pre season/summer break and Kimmich's injury Bayern have been a bit shit this season, at least by their own standards. As Kimmich is back now and the calendar clears up a bit I expect Bayern's form to pick up, too.
And when your players are rather inconsistent you can't really say "x,y and z will come back, so we'll be that much better". Like Schick's return is great news, but in his absence Alario had an amazing purple patch and looking forward neither will Alario sustain that form, nor can you play both at the same time, so in the end is Schick's return really such a net gain other than depth?
Sure, Paulinho will return, but if Leon "inconsistency personified" Bailey can sustain a form of 1 G/A per 90 it would probably still be a major surprise to most people.
Wirtz is another one who has been doing quite well and playing a lot, but given his age you have to expect some weaker spells in the future.
I think Bosz and Leverkusen have been doing a great job this season, but I see them getting say 2.0 ppg going forward, whereas Bayern will probably improve and get up to say 2.5ppg.
Reassuring news for Gladbach fans. Eberl would have been perhaps the most logical candidate for Bayern/Dortmund/Leipzig if their current personnel don't work out (e.g. Kahn/Kehl who are supposed to take over soon).
Bayern has 3 additional matches in January and February because of the delayed Cup match and the Club World Cup in Qatar. They start with a Sunday - Friday - Wednesday schedule - 5 days between the matches and their is no midweek match between January 24th and 30th - until now as I could imagine that one of the February matches will be rescheduled to that week.
If they stay in all Cups the schedule just will go on in the same way it did in the recent weeks.
Right. I forgot about the CWC, that makes things a bit harder for them.
This season was really the only chance for some clubs to have a chance for the title because Bayern Munich have won everything in the last months and they have had no real pre-season......okay there are still 21 matches to play and Leverkusen & Leipzig are just 2 points away from them but that Leverkusen have played so good against Bayern Munich and have still lost the match is the reason for my statement.
18/19 Bayern finished with 78 points
19/20 Bayern finished with 82 points
This is the third year in a row where they are theoretically within reach. The problem was as much Dortmund not getting 100% out of their ressources as it was Bayern having too many.
Obviously teams go through patches of good and bad form. But up until now we never fell off a cliff under Bosz. We got continuously better 18/19 and 19/20 before that, finishing both seasons on our best runs of form. The drop happened during the summer break, usually facilitated by the loss of our most important players in Brandt and Havertz. So I've actually got hope for a consistently good season right now.
Thing is, there's been stories like ours quite often in recent years. Gladbach's furious start under Rose springs to mind. However, most of those teams overperformed in terms of results. Gladbach for example was very lucky in many games. That's not really the case for us. It might be my Leverkusen glasses but our success appears to be of a more systemic and therefore sustainable nature.
I don't believe we'll really challenge Bayern in the end but I wouldn't bet on us dropping off significantly either.
I don't expect Leverkusen to collapse either, but looking at Alario's or Bailey's output or the team's xG/xPTS does suggest a fair amount of luck, overperformance or whatever you want to call it:
You have this overperformance with Lewy and Müller, too. But - they have lower xG and xA data than usual - with them you can expect that their xG and xA will be higher again when Kimmich is back on the pitch, Bayern can play with a proper midfield and Müller can permanently play higher again, what usually guarantees a better offensive output. He only had 2 assists in the nine matches Kimmich missed and a lot less key passes and xA.
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Something else. The Bender twins have announced that they will end their careers at the end of the season. They will be 32 then. Early - but both of them had a lot injuries.
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Something else. The Bender twins have announced that they will end their careers at the end of the season. They will be 32 then. Early - but both of them had a lot injuries.
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That is good for Leverkusen.
According to Bild and local Paper WAZ Christian Gross is the favourite to take over. Which on paper looks like a pretty bizarre choice: at the beginning of the past decade he coached 10 months in Stuttgart, 7 months at Young Boys and and spent the rest in Saudi Arabia and Egypt, before he announced his retirement at the end of last season. He is reported also willing to condition most of his salary on successfully keeping them up.
Another fun fact is the annual table, where we see Schalke below newly promoted Stuttgart and recently relegated Düsseldorf. Union in 8th place is also quite impressive.
Another fun fact is the annual table, where we see Schalke below newly promoted Stuttgart and recently relegated Düsseldorf. Union in 8th place is also quite impressive.
According to Bild and local Paper WAZ Christian Gross is the favourite to take over. Which on paper looks like a pretty bizarre choice: at the beginning of the past decade he coached 10 months in Stuttgart, 7 months at Young Boys and and spent the rest in Saudi Arabia and Egypt, before he announced his retirement at the end of last season. He is reported also willing to condition most of his salary on successfully keeping them up.
Another fun fact is the annual table, where we see Schalke below newly promoted Stuttgart and recently relegated Düsseldorf. Union in 8th place is also quite impressive.
How on Earth did Stuttgart win 1-5 in Dortmund a fortnight ago?
How on Earth did Stuttgart win 1-5 in Dortmund a fortnight ago?
The team had been dysfunctional for a while and eventually it culminated into a heavy defeat and Favre's sacking.
Sad about the Bender twins. They were really good in 2012, Sven in particular with Dortmund. Had they not had the amount if injuries they suffered, could've been amongst the top midfielders in Europe.
They seem to be great guys, but I don't think they had the talent to be top tier midfielders. Sven especially was never good enough on the ball to play in a modern midfield.
They weren't technically great but Sven was already regarded as one of the best DM's in 2013 after the UCL performances. There are some defenive midfielders today, like Fabinho and Casemiro, who aren't technically great but still regarded as great midfielders overall.
Fabinho and Casemiro are significantly better on the ball than Sven Bender imho. I mean there's a reason he's been moved back to CB for the past like 5 years or so. And he's not standing out with ball playing ability there either. It was also a different time entirely. Teams were much more naive and not as well organized. Just look at Großkreutz starting most matches, as an attacking midfielder even.
I don't think Grosskreutz was ever starting most matches with a fully fit squad. He was always a first choice backup though to Gotze, Reus or Kuba.
And Bender moved to CB because he lost a lot of his mobility after this string of injuries, before that he was playing fine within Klopp's high energy system as a the shield behind Gotze/Gundogan and wasn't reliant on his technical ability.
Thuram getting a five match ban for spitting into a face during a pandemic... Yet we have Cavani facing a three match ban for texting a mate.. fecking hell.
To be honest I would be surprised if Bender ever played more minutes in a season than Großkreutz. Even when he was more or less at his peak, in 2013, Dortmund brought back Sahin to play him as a DLP to aid their build up. Once teams caught up with "Gegenpressing is the best no10" logic, Bender's value gradually diminished. I still remember scenes of say 2014/15, when Dortmund were basically building up with a man down, because Sven neither made himself available nor was he able to handle it if a sharp pass found him between the lines. I love the guy, because he seems to have a great, give it your all always, down to earth, attitude, but if there ever was a hypothetical FM-style regen of him he'd be moved to CB right away.
Just take Emre Can as an example: he offers basically the same positive attributes and lots more in possession and even he is in the "good but not amazing" category.
The great casualties of their generation were Gündogan, who could have reached Modric levels, and Badstuber, who was battling it out with Boateng and Hummels, before he got completely ruined by injuries.
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Think you're mixing up your seasons. Grosskreutz was a key player for the 10/11-11/12 version of Klopp's BVB, when they walked over our second van Gaal season, culminating in the 2012 Pokalfinale where they destroyed us in Heynckes' first season, with Grosskreutz pulling the strings. Reus wasn't part of the Dortmund team then.