Geopolitics

I don't think this thread is particularly tone deaf to be honest.

The problem is slightly that one poster in particular allows posters to caricature all arguments into a ridiculous corner. I totally agree and have said strongly before that for all my criticisms of the West and the foreign policy of many of its countries, I would 100% prefer to still live in a US dominated world than one dominated by China or Russia.

For me, saying India has democracy because of the UK is as ridiculous as saying that propaganda is better in the West than in Russia.

I think the point about democracies and the response to war is an interesting one and for me, has shown the disconnect that some people have. Earlier in this thread, when we talked about the consequences for Russia as a country in this illegal war vs the (non existent) consequences for the UK and USA in their (multiple) illegal actions, someone replied talking about the PTSD suffered by western soldiers in Iraq. I had to pull out my tiny violin.

And of course, we had protests in the West, against Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam. Then what happened? We went to war anyway. People got bored and went on with their lives and the war continued. Not only did the two main leaders suffer no international consequences (they both roam free, are both multi millionaires, have both had a rehabilitation of their image of sorts in the recent past) but didn't even suffer any domestic consequences, with both leaders handily winning their next election.

The moral equivalence argument to me is often nonsensical on both sides. As I said, I'd much prefer to live in a world dominated by the USA compared to one dominated by Russia. But ultimately a bomb which wipes out your family is still a bomb that wipes out your family whether it's an American bomb or a Russian bomb. Iraqi children don't sit there thinking....Well my parents may be dead. But at least those bombs are democracy bombs.

Which is something that some on here would do well to remember while they're patting themselves on the back about how the west goes to war for democracy.
What this country did in Central America in the second half of the 20th century was much worse, from what I've read. Though in Afghanistan and Iraq, and elsewhere, the US govt still tortures people.

I'm definitely team West against Russia and China, but we have a long way to go to be the good guys.
 
What this country did in Central America in the second half of the 20th century was much worse, from what I've read. Though in Afghanistan and Iraq, and elsewhere, the US govt still tortures people.
Sorry, but didn't quite understand what comparison you're making. US actions in Central America in 20th century vs what?
 
Sorry, but didn't quite understand what comparison you're making. US actions in Central America in 20th century vs what?
To US actions in Iraq and Afghanistan. The torture, the assassinations, the death squads, a real low point in US history. I was thinking things are a little better now.

However, there *was* still torture. And you can't just put it all on evil Dick Cheney and puppet Bush, Obama didn't put a stop to it.

Fallujah was leveled.

I would still like to see these people face an international court.

This is why, before this invasion, most of the world saw the US as the most threatening nation in the world.
 
To US actions in Iraq and Afghanistan. The torture, the assassinations, the death squads, a real low point in US history. I was thinking things are a little better now.

However, there *was* still torture. And you can't just put it all on evil Dick Cheney and puppet Bush, Obama didn't put a stop to it.

Fallujah was leveled.

I would still like to see these people face an international court.

This is why, before this invasion, most of the world saw the US as the most threatening nation in the world.
Understood. Not ever productive to compare which heinous crimes are worse, but I generally think that initiating a large war of aggression is possibly the worst. This quote from the Nuremburg trials explains it well: "War is essentially an evil thing. Its consequences are not confined to the belligerent states alone, but affect the whole world. To initiate a war of aggression, therefore, is not only an international crime; it is the supreme international crime differing only from other war crimes in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole."

The Iraq war fits squarely in that category. I'm reading a book now by a Marine officer that deployed a few times there, and every act of destruction and every death, be it of Iraqi civilians, Iraqi soldiers, or US soldiers seems unnecessary. Saddam being a murderous dictator isn't good enough justification for the violence and destruction to be ratcheted up several levels by the US invasion.

Vietnam manages to be even worse, because it was even more deadly and destructive. The Republic of Vietnam government wasn't worth being defended.
 
Obama was a master statesman, he had all the right instincts. He de-escalated tensions in Ukraine (we could have had the current war in 2014), and he de-escalated in Syria over the objections of his staff. Joe Biden is an idiot by comparison - to the extent he can think for himself.

https://www.vox.com/22153765/joe-biden-foreign-policy-team-revenge-blob

De-escalated means he gave Crimea and Syria to Putin and he told him that no matter what he does, the West is too spineless to do anything about it. This caused the war today.

And if Bided did not do anything today, tomorrow it would be the Baltic states. Putin wants to re-create the Soviet Union, and he told us this back in the 2000s.
 
Obama was a master statesman, he had all the right instincts. He de-escalated tensions in Ukraine (we could have had the current war in 2014), and he de-escalated in Syria over the objections of his staff. Joe Biden is an idiot by comparison - to the extent he can think for himself.

https://www.vox.com/22153765/joe-biden-foreign-policy-team-revenge-blob
You think the larger war now reflects well on the political leaders in 2014? They (Obama, Merkel, Hollande et al.) are damned by their feeble inaction that emboldened Putin to now do this.
 
Obama was a master statesman, he had all the right instincts. He de-escalated tensions in Ukraine (we could have had the current war in 2014), and he de-escalated in Syria over the objections of his staff. Joe Biden is an idiot by comparison - to the extent he can think for himself.

https://www.vox.com/22153765/joe-biden-foreign-policy-team-revenge-blob

He was pretty feckless to be fair. He ran on a bring the troops home platform, which politically shackled him at a time when the US needed a muscular foreign policy to deal with Putin. He also grossly underestimated Putin cared enough about sanctions to change his behavior.
 
He was pretty feckless to be fair. He ran on a bring the troops home platform, which politically shackled him at a time when the US needed a muscular foreign policy to deal with Putin. He also grossly underestimated Putin cared enough about sanctions to change his behavior.

I completely disagree. Obama's instincts were spot on, he got played by his staff. The Washington blob - foreign policy establishment, State Department, the think tanks, the journalists that love beating the drums of war - is addicted to war. Obama wanted to get out of Afghanistan, but the generals started leaking that it'd be a fiasco and unfortunately Obama didn't follow through.

If you read this article, Obama lays it out:

“I’m very proud of this moment,” he told me. “The overwhelming weight of conventional wisdom and the machinery of our national-security apparatus had gone fairly far. The perception was that my credibility was at stake, that America’s credibility was at stake. And so for me to press the pause button at that moment, I knew, would cost me politically. And the fact that I was able to pull back from the immediate pressures and think through in my own mind what was in America’s interest, not only with respect to Syria but also with respect to our democracy, was as tough a decision as I’ve made—and I believe ultimately it was the right decision to make.”

This was the moment the president believes he finally broke with what he calls, derisively, the “Washington playbook.”

“Where am I controversial? When it comes to the use of military power,” he said. “That is the source of the controversy. There’s a playbook in Washington that presidents are supposed to follow. It’s a playbook that comes out of the foreign-policy establishment. And the playbook prescribes responses to different events, and these responses tend to be militarized responses. Where America is directly threatened, the playbook works. But the playbook can also be a trap that can lead to bad decisions. In the midst of an international challenge like Syria, you get judged harshly if you don’t follow the playbook, even if there are good reasons why it does not apply.”
 
He was pretty feckless to be fair. He ran on a bring the troops home platform, which politically shackled him at a time when the US needed a muscular foreign policy to deal with Putin. He also grossly underestimated Putin cared enough about sanctions to change his behavior.

Yes. Especially when Assad and the Russians used gas in Syria, the US should have answered. Unfortunately, Obama did nothing. The "sanctions" did not cost much to Russia. Also, it was under Obama that the Russians tried to influence the American elections and again Obama did nothing. He just waited to pass the problem to Hillary.
 
Public opinion was quite clear, the US statements were seen as advertisement for US LNG and the Russian offer was simply better. It wasn't ignored, it was actively not giving in to this.

Especially as the warmongering US isn't that well liked in Germany, and when you consider the deaths caused by US wars in the last 20 years it is still much much more than what Russia has caused in the same time, albeit Russia seems to be performing more atrocities directly. Though I am not sure if that's really worse than what happened in the power vacuums following failed US "nationbuilding".

It's a cold hard truth that we have to decide between business partners that killed hundreds of thousands of people.

If you think that Americans killed more than the Russians in the past 20 years, then perhaps you did not count correctly. Putin killed thousands in Grozny and Aleppo. And he killed and jailed the opposition in Russia and created a police state. This did not happen yesterday, it was well known what kind of person this KGB agent was.

I don't think that Germans give a fart who else is hurting, they only care for their own pockets. That's why it was so easy for them to label all the Southern Europeans as "lazy" and take the high moral ground when someone else's the economy was being destroyed by their stupid decisions... and at the same time they were giving millions to Putin, always on their high moral ground.

We have the same problem today. If it was only Italy that was depending on Russian gas, then the Germans would again be taking the high moral ground and would force the Italians to stop paying Putin. They wouldn't care about the Italian economy at all. Now that it is their economy that has to suffer (because of their own mistakes) they have "thoughts and prayers" for the Ukrainians (and Euros for Putin).
 
NATO has no business in expanding to Ukraine and Georgia.

You misunderstand the situation. NATO wasn't expanding. It was these countries that wanted to enter NATO to be protected against Russian aggression. Exactly the same as with the Baltic Countries.

Do you know why Putin did not attack the Baltic countries? Do you think it is because they have fantastic politicians?
 
If you think that Americans killed more than the Russians in the past 20 years, then perhaps you did not count correctly.

They definitely did. Are you forgetting the two wars and subsequent occupations? That goes on top of drone strikes. I think even if you don't go into the higher estimates of total casualties of the wars in the Middle East, which also cover excess deaths caused by the chaos that resulted from the wars, the US killed more people than Russia.
 
If you think that Americans killed more than the Russians in the past 20 years, then perhaps you did not count correctly. Putin killed thousands in Grozny and Aleppo. And he killed and jailed the opposition in Russia and created a police state. This did not happen yesterday, it was well known what kind of person this KGB agent was.
How many died in Afghanistan and Iraq during and following the US lead wars there? Those deaths are on them (and us who did support it). How many died at the hands of ISIS who only came to existence due to the US created power vacuum?
How many civilians have been ruthlessly "accidently" killed by US drone strikes? Whoch country puts more of it's own people in jail? No one beats the US.

There are no good guys in power in the world, this is always about choosing the lesser evil. And until now that has mostly been Russia who acted more peacefully. I know this sounds crazy, but it is how it is.
 
NATO has no business in expanding to Ukraine and Georgia.

You discredited yourself selling a totally moot point pushed by Russian propaganda.

And besides, other countries that entered NATO after 1999 met all (strict) criteria to do so and have the right to tell Putin to stick 12 plastic dildos up his ass. Ukraine and Georgia have not met those criteria, not yet anyway.
 
How many died in Afghanistan and Iraq during and following the US lead wars there? Those deaths are on them (and us who did support it). How many died at the hands of ISIS who only came to existence due to the US created power vacuum?
How many civilians have been ruthlessly "accidently" killed by US drone strikes? Whoch country puts more of it's own people in jail? No one beats the US.

There are no good guys in power in the world, this is always about choosing the lesser evil. And until now that has mostly been Russia who acted more peacefully. I know this sounds crazy, but it is how it is.

You tell me. How many died in Afghanistan? Give me the number.

Yes, there is a lot of evil in the world. And then there are Germans who are responsible for the worst. And they still try to take the high moral ground! It is unbelievable. The Germans are responsible for thousands of killings TODAY, for millions of Ukrainian refugees, they do nothing except looking at their pockets, and their head of state wants to visit Kiev. What for? To take the high moral ground once again! Unbelievable!
 
@stefan92 @frostbite @nimic

Y’all know we aren’t fighting in this one, right?

Of course not. But it is infuriating that the Germans called south europens PIGS, while at the same time they were giving billions to Putin. And now the same Germans try again to take the high moral ground. It is never their fault.

(Full disclosure: I immigrated to the USA in 2012, after my wife's business failed because of ... you guessed it!... we were PIGS living in Greece! )
 
Of course not. But it is infuriating that the Germans called south europens PIGS, while at the same time they were giving billions to Putin. And now the same Germans try again to take the high moral ground. It is never their fault.
Well, and it frequently seems to be “our fault”, but who killed more folks over the last 20 years is probably a discussion for a different thread so it doesn’t derail this one (the Russo-Ukrainian War thread)
 
I completely disagree. Obama's instincts were spot on, he got played by his staff. The Washington blob - foreign policy establishment, State Department, the think tanks, the journalists that love beating the drums of war - is addicted to war. Obama wanted to get out of Afghanistan, but the generals started leaking that it'd be a fiasco and unfortunately Obama didn't follow through.

If you read this article, Obama lays it out:

“I’m very proud of this moment,” he told me. “The overwhelming weight of conventional wisdom and the machinery of our national-security apparatus had gone fairly far. The perception was that my credibility was at stake, that America’s credibility was at stake. And so for me to press the pause button at that moment, I knew, would cost me politically. And the fact that I was able to pull back from the immediate pressures and think through in my own mind what was in America’s interest, not only with respect to Syria but also with respect to our democracy, was as tough a decision as I’ve made—and I believe ultimately it was the right decision to make.”

This was the moment the president believes he finally broke with what he calls, derisively, the “Washington playbook.”

“Where am I controversial? When it comes to the use of military power,” he said. “That is the source of the controversy. There’s a playbook in Washington that presidents are supposed to follow. It’s a playbook that comes out of the foreign-policy establishment. And the playbook prescribes responses to different events, and these responses tend to be militarized responses. Where America is directly threatened, the playbook works. But the playbook can also be a trap that can lead to bad decisions. In the midst of an international challenge like Syria, you get judged harshly if you don’t follow the playbook, even if there are good reasons why it does not apply.”

He talked a good game, but ultimately it’s the results that matter. The idiotically naïve “reset with Russia”, failing to read Putin’s interest in invading Ukraine in 2014, the failed “red line” in Syria that enabled mass carnage and invited the Russians in to do the same.

He had good domestic instincts but his foreign policy was incredibly feckless. He didn’t understand when he needed to go hard and became passive aggressive through drones. I will give him credit for the Iran deal and thawing of relations with Castro. But the two key areas where his leadership was most needed, he flopped.
 
This is just you buying the Russian narrative. Talking about "spheres of influence" as if this is either a) the Cold War or b) a grand strategy video-game.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/11/...st-strategy.html?referringSource=articleShare


During his recent speech in Warsaw, President Biden said that Vladimir Putin “cannot remain in power,” only to clarify a few days later that he was merely expressing outrage, not announcing a new U.S. policy aimed at toppling Russia’s leader. The episode, interpreted by many as a dangerous gaffe, underscored the tension in U.S. foreign policy between idealism and realism.
Mr. Putin’s invasion of Ukraine should provoke moral outrage in all of us, and, at least in principle, it warrants his removal from office. But Mr. Putin could well remain the leader of a major power into the next decade, and Washington will need to deal with him.

This friction between lofty goals and realpolitik is nothing new. The United States has since the founding era been an idealist power operating in a realist world — and has on balance succeeded in bending the arc of history toward justice. But geopolitical exigency at times takes precedence over ideals, with America playing power politics when it needs to.
During the Cold War, Washington promoted stability by tolerating a Soviet sphere of influence and cozying up to unsavory regimes willing to fight Communism. In contrast, after the collapse of the Soviet Union, America operated under conditions of geopolitical slack; great-power rivalry was muted, enabling Washington to put front and center its effort to promote democracy and expand a liberal, rules-based international order.

What, then, is the path forward? The war in Ukraine now confronts the United States with the need to tilt back toward the practice of realpolitik. Washington’s commitment to keeping NATO’s doors open to Ukraine was a laudable and principled stand against an autocratic Russia. Yet America’s idealist cause has run headlong into Russian tanks; Washington’s effort to do right by Ukraine has culminated in Russia’s ruthless effort to put the country back under Moscow’s sway.
Mr. Putin has just sent history into reverse. The United States should seek to foil and punish Moscow’s aggression, but Washington also needs to be pragmatic to navigate a world that, even if more unruly, is also irreversibly interdependent.


The Gap Between Means and Ends
Russia’s invasion of Ukraine has exposed a gap between America’s ideological aspirations and geopolitical realities that has been widening since the 1990s. During the heady decade after the end of the Cold War, Washington was confident that the triumph of American power and purpose cleared the way for the spread of democracy. A primary instrument for doing so was the enlargement of NATO.
But from early on, the American foreign policy establishment allowed principle to obscure the geopolitical downsides of NATO enlargement. Yes, NATO membership should be open to all countries that qualify, and all nations should be able to exercise their sovereign right to choose their alignments as they see fit. But geography and geopolitics still matter; major powers, regardless of their ideological bent, don’t like it when other major powers stray into their neighborhoods.
It’s true that Moscow’s dismay at the prospect of Ukraine’s membership in NATO most likely is fed in part by nostalgia for the geopolitical heft of the Soviet days, Mr. Putin’s paranoia about a “color revolution” arising in Russia, and mystical delusions about unbreakable civilizational links between Russia and Ukraine. But it is also true that the West erred in dismissing Russia’s legitimate security concerns about NATO setting up shop on the other side of its 1,000-mile-plus border with Ukraine.

All major powers desire strategic breathing room — which is precisely why Russia has objected to NATO’s eastern expansion since the end of the Cold War. NATO may be a defensive alliance, but it brings to bear aggregate military power that Russia understandably does not want parked near its territory.
Indeed, Moscow’s objections to NATO membership for Ukraine are very much in line with America’s own statecraft, which has long sought to keep other major powers away from its borders.
The United States spent much of the 19th century ushering Britain, France, Russia and Spain out of the Western Hemisphere. Thereafter, Washington regularly turned to military intervention to hold sway in the Americas. The exercise of hemispheric hegemony continued during the Cold War, with the United States determined to box the Soviet Union and its ideological sympathizers out of Latin America. When Moscow deployed missiles to Cuba in 1962, the United States issued an ultimatum that brought the superpowers to the brink of war.

After Russia recently hinted that it might again deploy its military to Latin America, the State Department spokesman, Ned Price, responded, “If we do see any movement in that direction, we will respond swiftly and decisively.” Given its own track record, Washington should have given greater credence to Moscow’s objections to bringing Ukraine into NATO.
NATO’s open door policy has meanwhile encouraged countries in Europe’s east to lean too far over their strategic skis. While the allure of joining the alliance has encouraged aspirants to carry out the democratic reforms needed to qualify for entry, the open door has also prompted prospective members to engage in excessively risky behavior.
Not long after NATO in 2008 pledged that Georgia and Ukraine “will become members of NATO,” Georgia’s president, Mikheil Saakashvili, launched an offensive against pro-Russian separatists in South Ossetia with whom the country had been sporadically fighting for years. Russia promptly carved up Georgia, grabbing control of South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Mr. Saakashvili thought the West had his back, but he miscalculated and overreached.
In similar fashion, NATO encouraged Ukraine to beat a path toward the alliance. The 2014 Maidan Revolution toppled a pro-Moscow regime and put Ukraine on a westward course, resulting in Russia’s intervention in Crimea and Donbas. NATO’s open door then beckoned, prompting Ukrainians in 2019 to enshrine their NATO aspirations in the Constitution.


Now Russia has again invaded the country to block its westward path. Given its unenviable proximity to Russia, Ukraine would have been better off playing it safe, quietly building a stable democracy while sticking with the neutral status that it embraced when it exited the Soviet Union. Indeed, Ukraine’s potential return to neutrality figures prominently in the talks between Kyiv and Moscow to end the war.
NATO has wisely avoided direct involvement in the fighting in Ukraine in order to avert war with Russia. But NATO’s unwillingness to protect Ukraine has exposed a troubling disconnect between the organization’s stated goal of making the country a member and its judgment that defending Ukraine is not worth the cost.
In effect, the United States and its allies, even as they impose severe sanctions on Russia and send arms to Ukraine, are revealing that they do not deem the defense of the country to be a vital interest. But if that is the case, then why have NATO members wanted to extend to Ukraine a security guarantee that would obligate them to go to war in its defense?
NATO should extend security guarantees to countries that are of intrinsic strategic importance to the United States and its allies, but it should not make countries strategically important by extending them security guarantees. In a world that is rapidly reverting to the Hobbesian logic of power politics, when adversaries may regularly test U.S. commitments, NATO cannot afford to be profligate in handing out such guarantees. Strategic prudence requires distinguishing vital interests from lesser ones and conducting statecraft accordingly.



Beginning the World Over Again
Americans have long understood the purpose of their power to be not only security but also the spread of liberty at home and abroad. As Thomas Paine wrote in 1776, “We have it in our power to begin the world over again.”
Paine was surely engaging in hyperbole. But successive generations of Americans have taken the nation’s exceptionalist calling to heart, with quite impressive results. Through the power of its example as well as its many exertions abroad — including World War I, World War II and the Cold War — the United States has succeeded in expanding the footprint of liberal democracy.
But the ideological aspirations of the United States have at times fueled overreach, producing outcomes at odds with the nation’s idealist ambitions. The founding generation was determined to build an extended republic that would stretch to the Pacific Coast. The exalted banner of Manifest Destiny provided ideological justification for the nation’s westward expansion — but also moral cover for trampling on Native Americans and launching a war of choice against Mexico that led to U.S. annexation of roughly half of Mexico’s territory.



President William McKinley in 1898 embarked on a war to expel colonial Spain from Cuba, insisting that Americans had to act “in the cause of humanity.” Yet victory in the Spanish-American War turned the United States itself into an imperial power as it asserted control over Spanish possessions in the Caribbean and Pacific, including the Philippines. The resulting Filipino insurgency led to the deaths of some 4,000 U.S. troops and more than 200,000 Filipino fighters and civilians.
As he prepared the country for entry into World War I, President Woodrow Wilson declared before Congress that “the world must be made safe for democracy.” After U.S. forces helped bring the war to a close, he played a leading role in negotiations over the League of Nations, a global body that was to preserve peace through collective action, dispute resolution and disarmament. But such idealist ambitions proved too much even for Americans. The Senate shot down U.S. membership in the League; Wilson’s ideological overreach cleared the way for the stubborn isolationism of the interwar era.
“The Iraqi people are deserving and capable of human liberty,” President George W. Bush proclaimed just before launching the invasion of Iraq in 2003. But the war resulted in far more bloodshed and chaos than liberty. Likewise, two decades of exhaustive U.S. efforts to bring stability and democracy to Afghanistan fell far short, with the American withdrawal last summer giving way to Taliban rule and a humanitarian nightmare. Across these historical episodes, noble ambitions became divorced from strategic realities, yielding dreadful results.

Getting Real

NATO meant well in opening its doors to Ukraine, yet good intentions have again stumbled on geopolitical realities. To be sure, Mr. Putin had the opportunity to settle his objections to Ukraine’s membership in NATO at the negotiating table. Last June, President Biden admitted that whether Ukraine joins the alliance “remains to be seen”; more recently, President Emmanuel Macron of France floated the idea of “Finlandization” for Ukraine — effective neutrality — and proposals for a formal moratorium on further enlargement circulated. Mr. Putin could have picked up these leads, but he instead opted for war — and now owns the resulting death and destruction.
Russia’s relationship with the West is fast heading toward militarized rivalry. In light of the tight strategic partnership that has emerged between Moscow and Beijing — and China’s own geopolitical ambitions — the next Cold War may well pit the West against a Sino-Russian bloc stretching from the Western Pacific to Eastern Europe.
The return of a two-bloc world that plays by the rules of realpolitik means that Washington will need to dial back its efforts to expand the liberal order, instead returning to a strategy of patient containment aimed at preserving geopolitical stability and avoiding great-power war. A new strategic conservatism will require avoiding the further extension of defense commitments into geographic areas that Russia and China consider their rimlands.
Instead, the United States should seek stable balances of power in the European and Asia-Pacific theaters. Washington will need to strengthen its forward presence in both theaters, requiring higher and smarter military spending and the strict avoidance of demanding wars of choice and nation-building adventures in the Middle East or other peripheral regions.

At the same time, taming an interdependent world will require working across ideological lines. Washington should ease off on the promotion of democracy and human rights abroad and the Biden administration should refrain from its tendency to articulate a geopolitical vision that too neatly divides the world into democracies and autocracies. Strategic and economic expedience will at times push the United States to partner with repressive regimes; moderating oil prices, for example, may require collaboration with Iran, Saudi Arabia and Venezuela.
Even though the United States will continue teaming up with its traditional democratic allies in Europe and Asia, many of the world’s democracies will avoid taking sides in a new era of East-West rivalry. Indeed, Brazil, India, Israel, South Africa and other democracies have been sitting on the fence when it comes to responding to Russia’s invasion of Ukraine.
Russia clearly poses the most immediate threat to geopolitical stability in Eurasia, but China, because of its emergence as a true competitor of the United States, still poses the greater geopolitical challenge in the longer term. Now that Russia and China are regularly teaming up, they could together constitute an opposing bloc far more formidable than its Soviet forebear. Accordingly, the United States should exploit opportunities to put distance between Moscow and Beijing, following the lead of the quintessential realists Richard Nixon and Henry Kissinger, who in the 1970s weakened the Communist bloc by driving a wedge between China and the Soviet Union.
The United States should play both sides. Russia’s invasion of Ukraine marks a fundamental breach with the Atlantic democracies, yet the West cannot afford to completely turn its back on Russia; too much is at stake. As during the Cold War, Washington will need a hybrid strategy of containment and engagement. Russia should remain in the penalty box for now, with the United States pushing back against the Kremlin’s territorial expansionism and other aggressive behavior by reinforcing NATO’s eastern flank and maintaining harsh economic sanctions.
But Washington should also remain on the lookout for opportunities to engage with Moscow. Its invasion of Ukraine has just made Russia an economic and strategic dependent of China; Mr. Putin will not relish being Xi Jinping’s sidekick. The United States should exploit the Kremlin’s discomfort with becoming China’s junior partner by signaling that Russia has a Western option.
Assuming an eventual peace settlement in Ukraine that permits the scaling back of sanctions, the Western democracies should remain open to cautious and selective cooperation with Moscow. Areas of potential collaboration include furthering nuclear and conventional arms control, sharing best practices and technologies on alternatives to fossil fuels, and jointly developing rules of the road to govern military and economic activity in the Arctic.
Russia needs China more than China needs Russia, so Washington should also seek to pull Beijing away from Moscow. Beijing’s ambiguous response to the invasion of Ukraine suggests at least a measure of discomfort with the economic and geopolitical disruption that has been produced by Russian recklessness. Yet Beijing continues to benefit from Russian energy and strategic cooperation and from the fact that Mr. Putin is forcing the United States to focus on Europe, thereby stalling the U.S. “pivot to Asia.” Nonetheless, Washington should keep an eye out for opportunities to work with Beijing in areas of common interest — trade, climate change, North Korea, digital governance, public health — to improve relations, tackle global problems and potentially weaken the bond between China and Russia.



As during the Cold War, a world of rival blocs could mean economic as well as geopolitical division. The severe impact of the sanctions imposed on Russia underscores the dark side of globalization, potentially driving home to both the United States and China that economic interdependence entails quite considerable risk. China could distance itself from global markets and financial systems, while Washington could seek to further decouple the United States from Chinese investment, technology, goods and supply chains. The world may be entering a prolonged and costly era of deglobalization.
The United States will always be an idealist country struggling to navigate a realist world. That’s as it should be; the globe is a better place for it. But Russia’s invasion of Ukraine is a geopolitical watershed: A more realist world is back, requiring that America’s idealist ambitions yield more regularly to inescapable strategic realities.

Charles A. Kupchan, a professor of international affairs at Georgetown University and senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations, is the author, most recently, of “Isolationism: A History of America’s Efforts to Shield Itself From the World.”

It isn't the Russian narrative, it's the geopolitical fact within which the war has been based. The Americans understand it perfectly well but are adept at pretending they don't know what's happening when acknowledging the facts proves inconvenient. Yes, this is the CFR* admitting what everyone already knew about spheres of influence, NATO encroachment, and likely Russian response. The framing is that the US is an idealist power which works according to realism and that the second is at odds with the first, despite the first being the "real" intent of the US. In reality, the US works according to realpolitik and uses idealism as a means to assert a distinction in international affairs where none actually exists (to assert a false naivety).

Policymakers and think-tanks are reaching a point of tacit admission on this topic.

For reference, what do people think the US pivot to Asia means? That geopolitical phrase that gained traction under Obama? It refers to the US belief that the greater part of the world is their sphere of influence and their proposed measure to maintain that influence by diverting military, economic, and diplomatic resources from one sphere to another based on priority (on keeping China down). Then people will tell you that "spheres of influence" is a Russian narrative. You have to laugh at it all.
 
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Yes, that Russian narrative sourced from American policymakers, American history, American presidential regimes, American foregin policy at behest of said regimes, and American scholars who summarize the entire process. It should all be banned as pro-Russian propaganda.

But a recurrent trope. US admits basic facts regarding the world and its position within it. This is at odds with people's ideological framing relative to a given nest of arguments. And so it becomes personal instead of substantive.

"But you" (say people who derive "whataboutism"). It is easier to just say "but you..." than admit your argument is logically corrupt/faulty. But you'd expect more from people who write at length on historical and current topics.

"Spheres of influence aren't a thing". Enormous amounts of evidence from anti-Russian sources to the contrary. "Well, you're a Russian propagandist". Nicely played.
 
This is just word salad rambling.
This is just you buying the Russian narrative. Talking about "spheres of influence" as if this is either a) the Cold War or b) a grand strategy video-game.

RN=Spheres of influence as legitimate concept. Therefore, SoI is an illegitimate concept as Russian narrative is false.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/11/...st-strategy.html?referringSource=articleShare




It isn't the Russian narrative, it's the geopolitical fact within which the war has been based. The Americans understand it perfectly well but are adept at pretending they don't know what's happening when acknowledging the facts proves inconvenient. Yes, this is the CFR* admitting what everyone already knew about spheres of influence, NATO encroachment, and likely Russian response. The framing is that the US is an idealist power which works according to realism and that the second is at odds with the first, despite the first being the "real" intent of the US. In reality, the US works according to realpolitik and uses idealism as a means to assert a distinction in international affairs where none actually exists (to assert a false naivety).

Policymakers and think-tanks are reaching a point of tacit admission on this topic.

For reference, what do people think the US pivot to Asia means? That geopolitical phrase that gained traction under Obama? It refers to the US belief that the greater part of the world is their sphere of influence and their proposed measure to maintain that influence by diverting military, economic, and diplomatic resources from one sphere to another based on priority (on keeping China down). Then people will tell you that "spheres of influence" is a Russian narrative. You have to laugh at it all.

Solid proof, in the article, and throughout the sources cited in said article, that spheres of influence are in fact very real and are factored into geopolitical decisions at every level (the basis behind Obama's Asian pivot).

I mean, from my perspective you're probably the single best example of someone buying the Russian narrative on this site, so you can laugh at it if you want to.
"You've bought the Russian narrative again" (by way of the Council on Foreign Relations, those well known Soviets).

I think I will laugh (:lol:). You should be able to engage with the material instead of brushing away inconvenient facts because they don't mesh with a stand you've taken elsewhere. No problem, though.
 
Nonstop Corporate News on Ukraine Is Fueling Support for Unchecked US Militarism

BY Henry A. Giroux

The drums of fascism are beating louder. The catastrophe of war and outpouring of support for the millions of Ukrainians suffering under the brutal attacks by Russia has morphed into increased warmongering from the West. The shock of war has been transformed into a cinematic spectacle used to fan the flames of militarism. The sheer boldness, violence and ruthlessness of Russia’s attack on Ukraine has created a global political crisis accentuated by both a crisis of ideas and a crisis of historical reckoning, at least in the Western mainstream media.

The wider public’s inability to reflect on the underlying causes of the war is due at least in the United States to its long-standing dominant belief in its own exceptionalism, reinforced by a moral righteousness endlessly reproduced in the mainstream media.

Tragic pictures of the agonizing hardships faced by the Ukrainian people too often appear with little or no critical commentary in the corporate-controlled cultural apparatuses. Endless images of unfathomable agony by the Ukrainian people dominate the conventional news outlets and other monopolies of information governed by the spectacle of 24/7 coverage, matched almost entirely by a lack of historical analysis. While widespread moral repulsion to the tragedies of the war are understandable, what is not acceptable is the refusal of the mainstream media to reflect on the historical, political and economic conditions leading up to the war.

The U.S. public is being fed continuous nonstop images of technologically sophisticated weapons being used in Ukraine — in effect this appears to function as a sort of advertisement for the weapons industry, coupled with the sensational presentation of gratuitous violence. Within this militarized aesthetic, operating in the service of permanent war, as cultural critic Rustom Bharucha writes, “there is an echo of the pornographic in maximizing the pleasure of violence.” The corporate media are thus rendering war as riveting, emotional and free from demanding intellectual complexities since it emerges out of an either/or view of good and evil.

Images of violence are replayed in the mainstream media over and over again, making violence not only more visible but also rootless. The sheer monopoly of such images gives them a fascist edge, all the while dissolving politics into a cinematic pathology. Writer and *********** Susan Sontag’s observation about war coverage, made in a different historical context, is even more relevant today. According to Sontag, the endless images of war and suffering, removed from the context of rigorous historical analysis, represent a contempt for “all that is reflective, critical and pluralistic [and are] linked to forms of rabid masculinity [that] glamorizes death.”

Talking heads in the dominant media landscape churn out cheap binarisms about good and evil, democracy versus authoritarianism. In doing so, they reinforce the mythic narrative that the U.S., a model of liberal innocence, is furthering the global fight for democracy, untainted in its false assertion that fascism is always elsewhere — in this case exclusively in Russia. There is almost no talk about the role of the military-industrial complex, both in its push for war, and how it usually emerges as the only winner. Nor is there any talk about who profits from an embrace of war talk, the spectacularization of war and war itself.

When more critical explanations of the war appear, especially from those criticizing the eastward expansion of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO), which created one set of conditions for the conflict, they are often mocked, ignored, or at worst, accused of being treasonous. In this instance, a rampant militarism collapses the difference between a critical analysis and a justification for Russia’s actions.

As New York Magazine’s Eric Levitz observes, many government spokespersons and pundits who condemn critics of NATO’s role in contributing to the start of the war often fail to distinguish their own “slippage between explanation and justification.” For instance, numerous Democratic lawmakers lambasted the Democratic Socialists of America and accused it of aiding Putin’s war after the socialist organization critiqued NATO’s buildup to the war, despite the fact that it simultaneously condemned Russian President Vladimir Putin’s invasion, calling for an end to “militarization, and other forms of economic and military brinkmanship that will only exacerbate the human toll of this conflict.”
Such massive acts of violence have also taken place in Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq and Yemen without eliciting comparable condemnations or humanitarian aid from the U.S. and Europe.

We have seen a similar shutting down of dissent before in the face of catastrophic events, especially in the aftermath of the 9/11 attacks and the ensuing “war on terror.” Yet, the frenetic opposition to dissent today seems more dangerous, especially given the multiple cultural platforms calling for “virtual war, for participating in it, and being manipulated by it, [including] crowd funding urban militias on Twitter, posting videos of captured tanks or ‘army cats’ to Instagram and TikTok.”

The need for community is too often now organized around a bristling war fever feeding on militaristic language in mainstream outlets such as The Atlantic, The New Republic, New Yorker, The Financial Times and The Wall Street Journal. In all cases, rightful moral outrage over the brutality of Russia’s unlawful invasion morphed quickly into a fog-of-war hysteria demanding more military aid, more punitive sanctions and bolstered by the discourse of unchecked jingoism. The call for peace or a diplomatic solution is barely mentioned.

With the war in Ukraine raging, more nuanced analyses along with dissent disappear in the suffocating discourses of hyper-nationalism and the growing bonfire of militarism fueled by what Indian essayist and novelist Pankaj Mishra, writing in the London Review of Books, calls “an infotainment media [that] works up citizens into a state of paranoid patriotism.” The military-industrial-intellectual-academic complex has reasserted itself in the face of Russia’s violation of international law, accelerating the prospect, if not welcoming, the potential of another looming Cold War, aided greatly by media apparatuses that bask in the comfort of moral certainty and patriotic inanity. In this atmosphere of hyper-war culture, military victories become synonymous with moral victories as language becomes weaponized and matters of ethics no longer inform the urgent call for peace.

In the face of the brutal Russian invasion, the concept of militarization is being amplified and put into service as a call for more upgraded weapons. Talk of war, not peace, dominates the mainstream media landscapes both at home and abroad. Such talk also fuels a global arms industry, oil and gas monopolies, and the weaponization of language itself. Militarism as a tool of unchecked nationalism and patriotism drives the mainstream and right-wing disimagination machines. Both fuel a global war fever through different degrees of misrepresentation and create what intellectual historian Jackson Lears writing in the London Review of Books calls “an atmosphere “poisoned by militarist rants.” He goes further in regarding his critique of the U.S. response to the war in Ukraine, writing in the New York Review of Books:

Yet the US has failed to put a cease-fire and a neutral Ukraine at the forefront of its policy agenda there. Quite the contrary: it has dramatically increased the flow of weapons to Ukraine, which had already been deployed for eight years to suppress the separatist uprising in the Donbas. US policy prolongs the war and creates the likelihood of a protracted insurgency after a Russian victory, which seems probable at this writing. Meanwhile, the Biden administration has refused to address Russia’s fear of NATO encirclement. Sometimes we must conduct diplomacy with nations whose actions we deplore. How does one negotiate with any potential diplomatic partner while ignoring its security concerns? The answer, of course, is that one does not. Without serious American diplomacy, the Ukraine war, too, may well become endless.

The horrific events in Ukraine have mobilized a global response against the brutal acts of violence inflicted on the Ukrainian people, but such massive acts of violence have also taken place in Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq and Yemen without eliciting comparable condemnations or humanitarian aid from the U.S. and Europe. Moreover, while public outrage in the U.S. is warranted in light of the “horrendous crimes by Russian troops against Ukrainian civilians—massacre, murder, and rape, among them,” memory fades, and the line between fantasy and historical consciousness disappears, “erasing the brutalizing crimes committed during America’s Global War on Terror.”

U.S. foreign policy is soaked in blood; torture; the violations of civil rights; abductions; kidnappings; targeted assassinations; illegal black holes; the scorched bodies of members of a wedding party in Yemen killed by a drone attack; and hundreds of women, children and old men brutally murdered by U.S. soldiers in the Vietnam village of My Lai.

In a war culture, memory fades, violence is elevated to its most visible and mediating force, and logic is refigured to feed a totalitarian sensibility. Under such circumstances, as London School of Economics Professor Mary Kaldor has argued, we live at a time in which the relationship between politics and violence is changing. She states: “Rather than politics being pursued through violent means, violence becomes politics. It is not conflict that leads to war but war itself that creates conflict.”
The mainstream media celebrate Poland’s welcoming of Ukrainian refugees but are silent about the Polish government boasting about building walls and “creating a ‘fortress’ to keep out refugees from Syria and Afghanistan.”



....

Follow link for full article:

https://truthout.org/articles/nonst...-fueling-support-for-unchecked-us-militarism/
 
Last edited:
Nonstop Corporate News on Ukraine Is Fueling Support for Unchecked US Militarism

BY Henry A. Giroux



https://truthout.org/articles/nonst...-fueling-support-for-unchecked-us-militarism/
Did you really feel that was worth quoting in full? I miss what this actually adds to the discussion; every point I see in there has been discussed and discussed again in here already. (Plus the writing is both repetitive and stating the obvious for long stretches. For example, the first handful of paragraphs could be summarized in a sentence or two.) If there was something you thought was of particular interest there, could you highlight it?
 
Did you really feel that was worth quoting in full? I miss what this actually adds to the discussion; every point I see in there has been discussed and discussed again in here already. (Plus the writing is both repetitive and stating the obvious for long stretches. For example, the first handful of paragraphs could be summarized in a sentence or two.) If there was something you thought was of particular interest there, could you highlight it?
In essence, yes. I think it might be the best piece of summary writing since the outbreak of war. It touches upon every salient point. Of particular interest is the entire thrust of his argument. Definitely demands to be read.

This passage is particularly brilliant:

Tragic pictures of the agonizing hardships faced by the Ukrainian people too often appear with little or no critical commentary in the corporate-controlled cultural apparatuses. Endless images of unfathomable agony by the Ukrainian people dominate the conventional news outlets and other monopolies of information governed by the spectacle of 24/7 coverage, matched almost entirely by a lack of historical analysis. While widespread moral repulsion to the tragedies of the war are understandable, what is not acceptable is the refusal of the mainstream media to reflect on the historical, political and economic conditions leading up to the war.

The U.S. public is being fed continuous nonstop images of technologically sophisticated weapons being used in Ukraine — in effect this appears to function as a sort of advertisement for the weapons industry, coupled with the sensational presentation of gratuitous violence. Within this militarized aesthetic, operating in the service of permanent war, as cultural critic Rustom Bharucha writes, “there is an echo of the pornographic in maximizing the pleasure of violence.” The corporate media are thus rendering war as riveting, emotional and free from demanding intellectual complexities since it emerges out of an either/or view of good and evil.

Images of violence are replayed in the mainstream media over and over again, making violence not only more visible but also rootless. The sheer monopoly of such images gives them a fascist edge, all the while dissolving politics into a cinematic pathology. Writer and *********** Susan Sontag’s observation about war coverage, made in a different historical context, is even more relevant today. According to Sontag, the endless images of war and suffering, removed from the context of rigorous historical analysis, represent a contempt for “all that is reflective, critical and pluralistic [and are] linked to forms of rabid masculinity [that] glamorizes death.”

Talking heads in the dominant media landscape churn out cheap binarisms about good and evil, democracy versus authoritarianism. In doing so, they reinforce the mythic narrative that the U.S., a model of liberal innocence, is furthering the global fight for democracy, untainted in its false assertion that fascism is always elsewhere — in this case exclusively in Russia. There is almost no talk about the role of the military-industrial complex, both in its push for war, and how it usually emerges as the only winner. Nor is there any talk about who profits from an embrace of war talk, the spectacularization of war and war itself.

When more critical explanations of the war appear, especially from those criticizing the eastward expansion of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO), which created one set of conditions for the conflict, they are often mocked, ignored, or at worst, accused of being treasonous. In this instance, a rampant militarism collapses the difference between a critical analysis and a justification for Russia’s actions.

As New York Magazine’s Eric Levitz observes, many government spokespersons and pundits who condemn critics of NATO’s role in contributing to the start of the war often fail to distinguish their own “slippage between explanation and justification.” For instance, numerous Democratic lawmakers lambasted the Democratic Socialists of America and accused it of aiding Putin’s war after the socialist organization critiqued NATO’s buildup to the war, despite the fact that it simultaneously condemned Russian President Vladimir Putin’s invasion, calling for an end to “militarization, and other forms of economic and military brinkmanship that will only exacerbate the human toll of this conflict.”

Such massive acts of violence have also taken place in Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq and Yemen without eliciting comparable condemnations or humanitarian aid from the U.S. and Europe.

We have seen a similar shutting down of dissent before in the face of catastrophic events, especially in the aftermath of the 9/11 attacks and the ensuing “war on terror.” Yet, the frenetic opposition to dissent today seems more dangerous, especially given the multiple cultural platforms calling for “virtual war, for participating in it, and being manipulated by it, [including] crowd funding urban militias on Twitter, posting videos of captured tanks or ‘army cats’ to Instagram and TikTok.”

The need for community is too often now organized around a bristling war fever feeding on militaristic language in mainstream outlets such as The Atlantic, The New Republic, New Yorker, The Financial Times and The Wall Street Journal. In all cases, rightful moral outrage over the brutality of Russia’s unlawful invasion morphed quickly into a fog-of-war hysteria demanding more military aid, more punitive sanctions and bolstered by the discourse of unchecked jingoism. The call for peace or a diplomatic solution is barely mentioned.


With the war in Ukraine raging, more nuanced analyses along with dissent disappear in the suffocating discourses of hyper-nationalism and the growing bonfire of militarism fueled by what Indian essayist and novelist Pankaj Mishra, writing in the London Review of Books, calls “an infotainment media [that] works up citizens into a state of paranoid patriotism.” The military-industrial-intellectual-academic complex has reasserted itself in the face of Russia’s violation of international law, accelerating the prospect, if not welcoming, the potential of another looming Cold War, aided greatly by media apparatuses that bask in the comfort of moral certainty and patriotic inanity. In this atmosphere of hyper-war culture, military victories become synonymous with moral victories as language becomes weaponized and matters of ethics no longer inform the urgent call for peace.

I would end up highlighting the entire article again, because it really does summarize the basic problems of corporate media and the subsequent discursive culture it gives rise to (as witnessed in this thread, the other thread, and all around the internet).
 
I miss what this actually adds to the discussion; every point I see in there has been discussed and discussed again in here already. (Plus the writing is both repetitive and stating the obvious for long stretches. For example, the first handful of paragraphs could be summarized in a sentence or two.)
/thread
 
When more critical explanations of the war appear, especially from those criticizing the eastward expansion of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO), which created one set of conditions for the conflict, they are often mocked, ignored, or at worst, accused of being treasonous. In this instance, a rampant militarism collapses the difference between a critical analysis and a justification for Russia’s actions.

also /thread

:boring:
 
In essence, yes. I think it might be the best piece of summary writing since the outbreak of war. It touches upon every salient point. Of particular interest is the entire thrust of his argument. Definitely demands to be read.
Well, I read it, and was wondering why. I didn't feel I was seeing anything new, personally. Maybe I missed it - which is why I asked if there's anything in particular you'd highlight.

I also feel the validity of the first half of the text (before the paragraph starting with 'The horrific events...') depends significantly on the validity of the author's apparent argument that 'a neutral Ukraine' should have been the US's goal in peace talks. As has been discussed a lot in this thread, that's really not so clear. And if it isn't, then most of the text in this part of the article isn't nearly as strong as the author thinks - cause it all leads necessarily to his own conclusion. (To put it bluntly: 'people are awful for not seeing it my way, which is the right way'.)
 
You still left the entire article, which deprives the source of potential revenue for their journalism:

Q: I want to post an article from a newspaper's website. Can I copy and paste the text on RedCafe?
A: No. These days a lot of sites have soft or hard paywalls and Niall has frequently received e-mails from these sites threatening legal action because of posters pasting articles from them so please don't do so. It is fine to paste a link as well as maybe the first two sentences from the article but if you find anyone who has posted a full article, please report it so one of the staff can delete it.
 
also /thread

:boring:
But that exact bit has been discussed over and over again, and especially @oneniltothearsenal has brought forward what I think are very strong arguments that NATO expansion really isn't the key factor here. The author also suggests that there may be more factors, but doesn't actually name any - suggesting to me that there aren't any. (Since there aren't any well-known other arguments that I'm aware of; so he can't just leave that open.)

I haven't seen the 'treasonous' bit myself, but then I don't follow US discussion enough to comment on that. (Or at least, I suppose that's what he is talking about. I don't in what other countries political discourse habitually uses that term.) Either way, it's also well-known that the US are particulary good in self-censure in these affairs. (Just look at how radio stations boycotted all kinds of songs after 9/11.)
 
Well, I read it, and was wondering why. I didn't feel I was seeing anything new, personally. Maybe I missed it - which is why I asked if there's anything in particular you'd highlight.

I also feel the validity of the first half of the text (before the paragraph starting with 'The horrific events...') depends significantly on the validity of the author's apparent argument that 'a neutral Ukraine' should have been the US's goal in peace talks. As has been discussed a lot in this thread, that's really not so clear. And if it isn't, then most of the text in this part of the article isn't nearly as strong as the author thinks - cause it all leads necessarily to his own conclusion. (To put it bluntly: 'people are awful for not seeing it my way, which is the right way'.)
I think it's slightly more substantial than "if you don't view it this way, you're wrong". It's a summary of militant reporting and the culture of flippancy promoted by such as demonstrated pretty much everywhere.

Neutrality is not his argument. That's a citation from another scholar (and only appears once in the entire text).

Yet the US has failed to put a cease-fire and a neutral Ukraine at the forefront of its policy agenda there.

I really don't think the validity of the author's argument rests upon the validity of this argument he cites as secondary source. On the other hand, a neutral Ukraine really should have been the US's goal in peace talks (Minsk).
 
But that exact bit has been discussed over and over again, and especially @oneniltothearsenal has brought forward what I think are very strong arguments that NATO expansion really isn't the key factor here. The author also suggests that there may be more factors, but doesn't actually name any - suggesting to me that there aren't any. (Since there aren't any well-known other arguments that I'm aware of; so he can't just leave that open.)

I haven't seen the 'treasonous' bit myself, but then I don't follow US discussion enough to comment on that. (Or at least, I suppose that's what he is talking about. I don't in what other countries political discourse habitually uses that term.) Either way, it's also well-known that the US are particulary good in self-censure in these affairs. (Just look at how radio stations boycotted all kinds of songs after 9/11.)
No, I was referring to the ad hominem culture that has pervaded since the outbreak of war whereby people who try to give detailed analyses and accounts that move against the reactionary grain are basically ridiculed or marginalized (by comments like /thread, or "russian propagandist", or a million others). Not that CR was attacking the poster, but others obviously do it on a continual basis.
 
You still left the entire article, which deprives the source of potential revenue for their journalism:
Have you seen this thread and basically every other CE thread in existence? The retroactive editing would be impossible... but I'll cut this one short.
 
No, I was referring to the ad hominem culture that has pervaded since the outbreak of war whereby people who try to give detailed analyses and accounts that move against the reactionary grain are basically ridiculed or marginalized (by comments like /thread, or "russian propagandist", or a million others). Not that CR was attacking the poster, but others obviously do it on a continual basis.
Yes, I agree, that is tiring, and typical of the group-think that crisis situations bring. In a way, it's quite impressive how a conflict in Ukraine (which for the vast majority of RedCafe posters is very far from their own world) has had such a widespread effect of this kind in Europe and North America.