General Election 2017 | Cabinet reshuffle: Hunt re-appointed Health Secretary for record third time

How do you intend to vote in the 2017 General Election if eligible?

  • Conservatives

    Votes: 80 14.5%

  • Labour

    Votes: 322 58.4%

  • Lib Dems

    Votes: 57 10.3%

  • Green

    Votes: 20 3.6%

  • SNP

    Votes: 13 2.4%

  • UKIP

    Votes: 29 5.3%

  • Independent

    Votes: 3 0.5%

  • Plaid Cymru

    Votes: 2 0.4%

  • Sinn Fein

    Votes: 11 2.0%

  • Other (UUP, DUP, BNP, and anyone else I have forgotten)

    Votes: 14 2.5%
  • Total voters
    551
  • Poll closed .
rcoobc said:
I'm not a Labour supporter. I'd love Proportional Representation.

Under PR we'd have that aforementioned coalition right now. (or at least Lib Dems, Labour and the SNP).

From left to right.

Green (1.6%), SNP (5.4%), Plaid (0.5%), Labour (40%), Lib Dems (7.4%).

That's 55% of the vote right there.


Who here would prefer a Conservative-DUP coalition to a Rainbow Coalition of the Left (the Coalition of 'Stability' vs the Coalition of Chaos)?
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Reality check... the rest of the country's view does not reflect that of redcafe's members.

Also... what makes you believe that all those parties would be willing to get into coalition with Corbyn? The last time the lib dems done that they were severely punished the following election and have only just recovered. Not everyone in the country agrees that this will be a "rainbow coalition". Hence why the majority of the country voted for Theresa May and the Conservatives.

Anyway... its not going to matter realistically... the Conservatives and DUP hold a majority and likely will do for the next 5 years so theres no point in discussing something that wont happen.
 
Full Member said:
Reality check... the rest of the country's view does not reflect that of redcafe's members.

Also... what makes you believe that all those parties would be willing to get into coalition with Corbyn? The last time the lib dems done that they were severely punished the following election and have only just recovered. Not everyone in the country agrees that this will be a "rainbow coalition". Hence why the majority of the country voted for Theresa May and the Conservatives.

Anyway... its not going to matter realistically... the Conservatives and DUP hold a majority and likely will do for the next 5 years so theres no point in discussing something that wont happen.
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You are deluded. The numbers I quoted are the percentage of the vote from the general election. The majority of the country voted for the Lib Dems and further left.

As for whether the Lib Dems would get into bed with Labour, they would for proportional representation. Plain and simple
 
Full Member said:
Reality check... the rest of the country's view does not reflect that of redcafe's members.

Also... what makes you believe that all those parties would be willing to get into coalition with Corbyn? The last time the lib dems done that they were severely punished the following election and have only just recovered. Not everyone in the country agrees that this will be a "rainbow coalition". Hence why the majority of the country voted for Theresa May and the Conservatives.

Anyway... its not going to matter realistically... the Conservatives and DUP hold a majority and likely will do for the next 5 years so theres no point in discussing something that wont happen.
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No they didn't no matter how hard you try you can't paint 42% of the vote or 318 seats as a the majority. A majority is over 50% She got nowhere near 50% of the people voting and even fell short of 50% of the seats.

By definition it's a minority that is why she is trying to create a minority government.
 
Dobba said:
Another great point you inadvertently made. Corbyn achieved what he did and created a youth movement, despite absolute no backing from any part of the established media or indeed his so called big hitters, during an election he had no time to prepare for. The arms dealing vicar's daughter has lost her big 'terrorist sympathiser' angle, the right wing rags have lost their influence and the Tories have spent the last few days flirting with a bunch of moronic bigots whose views will repulse even more people than fox hunting and the dementia tax did.
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Who are moronic bigots and why? Ahh yes... the party that have a woman as the leader but quote unquote don't believe in women's rights?
 
The thing is I can't see the DUP getting involved unless they Tories stump up cash for major investment in Northern Ireland. How is the rest of the country going to react to Austerity on Mainland Britain while Northern Ireland get major investment?
 
Full Member said:
Anyway... its not going to matter realistically... the Conservatives and DUP hold a majority and likely will do for the next 5 years so theres no point in discussing something that wont happen.
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This is complete cobblers quite frankly. Holding a minority government together at the best of time is frighteningly difficult, and this time they have to try and go it with the support of a tiny party of fecking lunatics who believe things that most of the Tory MPs find ridiculous and offensive. The DUP aren't going to hand the Tories power without wanting things in return, and yet she can't give them much without risking a rebellion from her own party MPs. Hell, she had a hard enough time when she had a majority, now every time she tries to pass legislation Tory MP's know that just a handful of them can hold May to ransom.

This is not like the Tory/Lib Dem coalition, its a fecking mess and if it lasts 6 months I'll be absolutely shocked.
 
Given there's always several by-elections between general elections there's no way this Tory-DUP pact can last 5 years.
 
rcoobc said:
I'm not a Labour supporter. I'd love Proportional Representation.

Under PR we'd have that aforementioned coalition right now. (or at least Lib Dems, Labour and the SNP).

From left to right.

Green (1.6%), SNP (5.4%), Plaid (0.5%), Labour (40%), Lib Dems (7.4%).

That's 55% of the vote right there.


Who here would prefer a Conservative-DUP coalition to a Rainbow Coalition of the Left (the Coalition of 'Stability' vs the Coalition of Chaos)?
Click to expand...

The problem with PR in the UK is that you'd end up in a situation where every election would be a game of who can bribe the Lib Dems with the most to get into power.

They'd end up being the 3rd largest party by a huge margin but the party with the morning power.

I'd prefer 325 MP's via FPTP by doubling the size of constituencies (also has the bonus of local MP's still championing local issues). Then 325 MP's via PR.
 
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My issue with proportional representation is that people vote, largely, based on party/leader rather than local MP or local issues. PR makes coalition far more likely. Now in theory the idea that a party that won 40% of the vote joining up with party that won 20% of the vote to form government that represents 60% of the electorate sound great.

In reality what happens is that the two parties hash out a post-election manifesto 'deal', like in 2010, that nobody ever voted for. So we end up with a government elected by a greater percentage share of the population but with a set of policies not one single vote was cast for.

Not sure how that's democratic. "Thanks for the votes, now we're off to discuss behind closed doors what policies we're deciding retrospectively you voted for."

That isn't to say FPTP isn't flawed either.
 
Think this will last till the end of the Brexit negotiations, and then depending on how they go and and how this sort of coalition is going we might get an election then.
 
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The Con-DUP alliance numbers aren't actually that bad because Sinn Fein don't turn up. It's the (Brexit) instability & in-fighting which will do for them.

Dead duck Leader or Leader with no mandate = 'coalition of chaos'. You can't run on that ticket for too long. Then your remain MPs from remain constituencies start to come out & that encourages all the remain MPs out, so you cop for that happening too.

Then we have another Election - there isn't any choice.
 
finneh said:
The problem with PR in the UK is that you'd end up in a situation where every election would be a game of who can bribe the Lib Dems with the most to get into power.

They'd end up being the 3rd largest party by a huge margin but the party with the morning power.

I'd prefer 325 MP's via FPTP by doubling the size of constituencies (also has the bonus of local MP'so still championing local issues). Then 325 MP's via PR.
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That would work. To be honest, I don't want "perfect" PR; the system we have at the moment works fantastically in terms of; regional representation, having someone to complain to, etc. My ideal system would therefore be the single transferable vote with around 3 MPs per constituency, but no more.

But actually, I've given up with a Proportionally Represented House of Commons (until we came so close 4 days ago). A Proportional Represented House of Lords with only slightly more power than they have now would do wonders though.

But actually, I'm not sure it's correct to say it would be just "whoever can appeal to the Lib Dems" anymore. In the old days of the three main parties taking 95%+ of the vote, that was obviously true, but these days it doesn't have to be correct.

The 2015 results:

Conservatives: 36.8%
UKIP: 12.7%

Pretty clear who would have been in power there!
 
Dobba said:
I think believing the world is 6000 years old, not 'believing' in evolution or climate change and being repulsed by gay people is pretty moronic and bigoted. But hey, you do you.
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Ahh is that their party policy? Or did you hear this on social media? Many of my non-Irish friends who are now suddenly experts in DUP policy got their information from social media having only heard about the DUP 3 days ago.
 
On such margins...



Probably wouldn't take many in the other direction to deprive them of any chance of forming a government.
 
I'm certain that May will resign. I find it hard to believe that she would have the nerve to walk back into westminster after a catastrophic friendly fire raid on her own back bench.
She'll also be a laughing stock with the EU crowd and foreign leaders.
The Conservative government have to surely try to emerge from this situation with as much credibility as they can muster, which would be impossible with May still as prime minister.
 
Full Member said:
If there is another election, it will give the Tories time to run a new campaign and learn from the mistakes that were made. They are unlikely to do any worse than they currently have done so i fail to see how JC would do any better? Only recently his party were trying to get rid of him and Theresa May was enjoying a 20pt lead. What makes you think that Corbyn's stock wont plummet as fast as it has rose? Also... its one think campaigning but another thing leading. Anyone can say "i would do it this way or that way" but trying to execute it is another thing.
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You're right there, the Tory's have been doing just that since the beginning of time.
 
Ubik said:
On such margins...



Probably wouldn't take many in the other direction to deprive them of any chance of forming a government.
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I think there was a few thousand to give Labour an outright majority which when you consider how far from it they are is insane.

Sums up our electoral system doesn't it?
 
There will have to be a Tory party consensus over her replacement before they push her out as they won't want to have Brexit negotiations happening along side a leadership contest. That's why I think Boris may well be out of luck as he's far too much of a polarising figure in the parliamentary party to fulfil that role as he'll never stand without others challenging him.

I expect it may well be Amber Rudd. But the 1922 committee have to get all their ducks in a row first, they can't risk announcing a leadership election and then have multiple names thrown into the hat. They'll want a coronation and a smooth transition.
 
rcoobc said:
That would work. To be honest, I don't want "perfect" PR; the system we have at the moment works fantastically in terms of; regional representation, having someone to complain to, etc. My ideal system would therefore be the single transferable vote with around 3 MPs per constituency, but no more.

But actually, I've given up with a Proportionally Represented House of Commons (until we came so close 4 days ago). A Proportional Represented House of Lords with only slightly more power than they have now would do wonders though.

But actually, I'm not sure it's correct to say it would be just "whoever can appeal to the Lib Dems" anymore. In the old days of the three main parties taking 95%+ of the vote, that was obviously true, but these days it doesn't have to be correct.

The 2015 results:

Conservatives: 36.8%
UKIP: 12.7%

Pretty clear who would have been in power there!
Click to expand...

I also think it's a bit arbitrary looking at current voting patterns and applying them to a PR system.

My other half for example is somewhere between a Lib Dem and a Tory (strict fiscal responsibity but socially liberal). She'd probably vote Lib Dem in a PR system to back the "give a brain to the Labour party or a heart to the Tories" mantra.

However in FPTP she'll generally vote Tory as she believes without the biggest possible budget as a result of economical and fiscal responsibility... everyone loses. So in a choice between Labour and Conservative the latter would always win.
 
Full Member said:
Reality check... the rest of the country's view does not reflect that of redcafe's members.

Also... what makes you believe that all those parties would be willing to get into coalition with Corbyn? The last time the lib dems done that they were severely punished the following election and have only just recovered. Not everyone in the country agrees that this will be a "rainbow coalition". Hence why the majority of the country voted for Theresa May and the Conservatives.

Anyway... its not going to matter realistically... the Conservatives and DUP hold a majority and likely will do for the next 5 years so theres no point in discussing something that wont happen.
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yes the majority of the country......by 2%.
 
NinjaFletch said:
I think there was a few thousand to give Labour an outright majority which when you consider how far from it they are is insane.

Sums up our electoral system doesn't it?
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About 44,000 to get them 60 more seats and a working majority, about 7,000 to become the largest party. Crazy.
 
finneh said:
The problem with PR in the UK is that you'd end up in a situation where every election would be a game of who can bribe the Lib Dems with the most to get into power.

They'd end up being the 3rd largest party by a huge margin but the party with the morning power.

I'd prefer 325 MP's via FPTP by doubling the size of constituencies (also has the bonus of local MP's still championing local issues). Then 325 MP's via PR.
Click to expand...

Short term maybe, but I think you'd quickly see the parties fragment as it's less incumbent on them to form big groups that encompass a range of views.

So I think you'll see the Conservatives split into a centre right and a right wing party and Labour into at least two as well. I think you'd also see a big surge towards the Greens as well.
 
finneh said:
I also think it's a bit arbitrary looking at current voting patterns and applying them to a PR system.

My other half for example is somewhere between a Lib Dem and a Tory (strict fiscal responsibity but socially liberal). She'd probably vote Lib Dem in a PR system to back the "give a brain to the Labour party or a heart to the Tories" mantra.

However in FPTP she'll generally vote Tory as she believes without the biggest possible budget as a result of economical and fiscal responsibility... everyone loses. So in a choice between Labour and Conservative the latter would always win.
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Indeed. I actually have 2 or 3 friends that switch between Greens and Conservatives regularly. That might seem crazy, but actually isn't, they want fiscal conservatism and green policies.

(Obviously they should be voting Lib Dem, but dont)
 
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There's a good point here



Tories would have a bare working majority if the DUP just abstained on everything.
 
I don't think it's fair to put all of the blame on the PLP, there were legitimate criticisms of Corbyn's leadership and performance to date (where was this level of campaigning in the Brexit referendum?).

Hopefully both sites can unite now and we'll see a stronger party.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
And whose responsibility was it to rally the Labour party - all of them - behind him?
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Not sure of your point?

I can't see any interpretation that doesn't mean anything other than Corbyn ran a great campaign and got a result better than anyone imagined.

If he had caved to the Blairites I doubt he would have done so well.
 
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