General Election 2017 | Cabinet reshuffle: Hunt re-appointed Health Secretary for record third time

[Pogue Mahone]

Ive no idea in the UK, but over here its also anything about 50K per year and you are fecked up the hole

It's similar in the UK.

If you want to really feel depressed, have a look through some P60s and add up the total amount of tax you've paid over the last few years.

Mind you, my kids are in a really good national school just down the road from my house and my mum recently got excellent treatment for a dislocated shoulder, all without any of us paying a penny. So I'm generally ok with paying a lot of tax. I prefer this current situation to the equivalent in the US, even if I would take home a bit more each month.

 

[Ubik]

 

[Classical Mechanic]

If you look at the current government and think that is a safe pair of hands I feel for you

All governments are different shades of incompetent. Politics is a losing game because countries are so complex and subject to rapidly changing conditions.

I never said that the Tories were a safe pair of hands, only that compared to Corbyn's Labour they will be judged as such.

 

[Randall Flagg]

It's similar in the UK.

If you want to really feel depressed, have a look through some P60s and add up the total amount of tax you've paid over the last few years.

Mind you, my kids are in a really good national school just down the road from my house and my mum recently got excellent treatment for a dislocated shoulder, all without any of us paying a penny. So I'm generally ok with paying a lot of tax. I prefer this current situation to the equivalent in the US, even if I would take home a bit more each month.

I havent looked at my wage slip in about 2 years let alone my P60's

It just depresses me how much I have to pay out

 

[Ultimate Grib]

You still here @sammsky1? You didn't tell us what class drug your parents dealt that allowed them to become higher rate paying immigrants who could afford to put 5 kids through private school. I assume you won't because just like much of what you spouted here including being done with the thread that's also bullshit.

 

[rcoobc]

What

 

[rcoobc]

Fecking dictatorship

 

[altodevil]

Because she is a bit shit. So is Corbyn to be fair so it might have been worth a one-on-one sesh. Sturgeon would tear her a new one though.

 

[Unmutual]

Relative to where they are, that's impressive. I don't think the Lib Dems will get back to their 2010 peak for a good while yet, but it feels like they're going to have a morale boosting election.

 

[Dobba]

All a bunch of trots trying to overthrow the party.

Is that still how this increase in membership works?

 

[Kentonio]

Sounds about right for those cnuts. Don't ask any questions or expect any answers peasants, just tick the nice Tory box and let your betters decide what's good for you.

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

All the SNP has to do is guarantee an immediate vote on independence in their manifesto and it's bye bye Scotland.

 

[Ubik]

Relative to where they are, that's impressive. I don't think the Lib Dems will get back to their 2010 peak for a good while yet, but it feels like they're going to have a morale boosting election.

Cable standing for Twickenham again as well. The Tory-Lib Dem swing is the really big unknown for this election, they won the majority largely on the back of hoovering up the south-west, a big swing back could lead to a fair few losses. National polling is really out of line with the other evidence on this at the moment.

 

[DenisIrwin]

I would have enjoyed seeing her squirm when asked about the many times she said she would not call a snap election, and exactly what she meant when saying it's not the right time for a 2nd referendum in Scotland because people wouldn't have knowledge of brexit details on which to make a decision either way.

 

[NinjaFletch]

Cable standing for Twickenham again as well. The Tory-Lib Dem swing is the really big unknown for this election, they won the majority largely on the back of hoovering up the south-west, a big swing back could lead to a fair few losses. National polling is really out of line with the other evidence on this at the moment.

An unknown factor is how much the polls were wrong before.

It was clear they were underestimating the right wing vote and its entirely possible they've over-corrected too far.

 

[sammsky1]

I'd wager a guess that anyone who has 300k/year taxable income (all taxed by PAYE) over 30 years is closer to the 0.001% than they are to the 1%.

most people don't ever get close to that do they? Outside of small business owners, even board directors of MNC corporation's will get close to that kind of number for the last few years in their career. 1st 10 years would be below 70k. 2nd 10 years maybe 150k, last 10 years, maybe 250k. And those are if you've done really well.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

All the SNP has to do is guarantee an immediate vote on independence in their manifesto and it's bye bye Scotland.

How do you work that one out?

 

[Ubik]

An unknown factor is how much the polls were wrong before.

It was clear they were underestimating the right wing vote and its entirely possible they've over-corrected too far.

By-elections have largely confirmed (for Labour vs Tories, anyway) the polls, though. But could be issues with localised vote.

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

How do you work that one out?

I think they'll make the general election about independence rather than about Brexit. But also solidify the position of their previous manifesto. They had already promised that a material change in EU status would require a second referendum, but now they can just outright put it to their electorate.

 

[DOTA]

Empty chair her.

 

[Sly]

Not only are you stupid, you're ignorant and staggeringly arrogant at the same time.

Might seem harsh but i completely agree. And to think i believed some of what i consider now bs he wrote in other threads.

 

[Rado_N]

Amen to that.

But good luck convincing @Mozza that these people aren't basically the devil incarnate.

They're low hanging fruit for the Corbynites, of course. Envy is a powerful emotion. Any policy that is intended to make people who are "richer than you" a little less well off will always appeal. Whether or not these people are already contributing more than their fair share to the exchequer.

The idea that envy is the only reason Sammsky is getting shit in here (if that's what you're getting at, apologies if not) is just nonsense.

When it comes to financial matters I'm far less left leaning than many in here and less left than I am on many other things, but he's copping so much grief because of idiotic statements like poor people are only where they are because they're too lazy to better themselves and are scrounging off his hard earned money.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

I think they'll make the general election about independence rather than about Brexit. But also solidify the position of their previous manifesto. They had already promised that a material change in EU status would require a second referendum, but now they can just outright put it to their electorate.

Westminster don't have to grant them a referendum though.

 

[Ivor Ballokov]

You still here @sammsky1? You didn't tell us what class drug your parents dealt that allowed them to become higher rate paying immigrants who could afford to put 5 kids through private school. I assume you won't because just like much of what you spouted here including being done with the thread that's also bullshit.

I don't know about @sammsky1 but my ex's family were from Hong Kong, her mum and her Aunt co-owned a takeaway that allowed them to send their combined 3 kids to private school and support their mother back home. They were loaded.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

most people don't ever get close to that do they? Outside of small business owners, even board directors of MNC corporation's will get close to that kind of number for the last few years in their career. 1st 10 years would be below 70k. 2nd 10 years maybe 150k, last 10 years, maybe 250k. And those are if you've done really well.

I'd say figures like that (and much much higher) are common enough in the City. And they'd be up there fairly quickly. I've known people take home five figures as their bonus alone, within a few years of leaving university.

Finance is a bit of a law unto itself, though. For the 99.99% of people not working in the square mile taking home 300k/year is a pipe dream.

 

[PedroMendez]

Amen to that.

But good luck convincing @Mozza that these people aren't basically the devil incarnate.

They're low hanging fruit for the Corbynites, of course. Envy is a powerful emotion. Any policy that is intended to make people who are "richer than you" a little less well off will always appeal. Whether or not these people are already contributing more than their fair share to the exchequer.

The fortunate thing is, that the wider middle class, who are the majority in most western countries, don’t really buy into this stuff. They just want to get on with their lives and make a decent living. Most people who work and get their paycheck – regardless of it being 18k or 180k – understand that there is nothing wrong with you wanting to actually get the majority of what you earn. It certainly doesn’t make you some kind of cartoon villain. That’s why somebody like Corbyn might excite students, but has no chance at all to ever become PM.


What I find tedious about all this talk about “rich people not paying their fair share” is, that even the very basic facts about it (who pays how much and what are the dynamics of change between income groups) are obscured by simplistic memes and slogans. Additionally the moral righteousness is quite staggering and arrogant. Most of it boils down “if you oppose additional tax hikes, you must hate poor people”. Hard to reply to this argument in a serious manner.

 

[NinjaFletch]

The fortunate thing is, that the wider middle class, who are the majority in most western countries, don’t really buy into this stuff. They just want to get on with their lives and make a decent living. Most people who work and get their paycheck – regardless of it being 18k or 180k – understand that there is nothing wrong with you wanting to actually get the majority of what you earn. It certainly doesn’t make you some kind of cartoon villain. That’s why somebody like Corbyn might excite students, but has no chance at all to ever become PM.


What I find tedious about all this talk about “rich people not paying their fair share” is, that even the very basic facts about it (who pays how much and what are the dynamics of change between income groups) are obscured by simplistic memes and slogans. Additionally the moral righteousness is quite staggering and arrogant. Most of it boils down “if you oppose additional tax hikes, you must hate poor people”. Hard to give reply to this argument in a serious manner.

I don't really know what relevance this has to the debate thats been had in here today. It's a massive stretch to say thats why Sammsky has gotten flak.

 

[Crossie]

Thank you for your civility.

You make a very good point, but I just feel incredibly compromised in both directions.

I don't rate Corbyn but lets see how the debates play out.

Are you sure that Corbyn will get his will from his own people? And why don't you vote for the LibDems? I'm far from being deep into their program but what I remember appear to me a better compromise than the Tories.

They are for a soft Brexit, won't strip you off as much money as Labour might, I haven't heard from them racist or anti-muslim comnents but as pointed out, that might be because I don't follow them closely.

I also wonder if it could be a possibility for you to reach out to your Labour MP or to some Labour party leadership people you consider reasonable and tell them about your dilemma: That you are on the edge of voting the complete opposite of 90% of your Labour-near convictions because of the extreme stance of Corbynists on taxes for the rich(er).

Reach out to them TOMORROW (when you've let off some steam) to make yourself heard. You have been and are currently engaged in campaigns that are intended to bring different parts of society together. Use the skills of your profession to be inventive to alert reasonable Labour folks.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

The idea that envy is the only reason Sammsky is getting shit in here (if that's what you're getting at, apologies if not) is just nonsense.

When it comes to financial matters I'm far less left leaning than many in here and less left than I am on many other things, but he's copping so much grief because of idiotic statements like poor people are only where they are because they're too lazy to better themselves and are scrounging off his hard earned money.

I wasn't intending to accuse anyone on here of being jealous of anyone else. I was just having a go at the "tax the rich" soundbites you often hear as a solution to all of society's ills. Because defining who is and isn't "rich" will depend on how much pay you personally take home and income tax rates are about as high as they should reasonably go already.

 

[entropy]

been there done that. Thanks

Have you tried turning it off and on again?!

 

[Xeno]

True. But then, so are many other countries

Spoiler

We sit around 35%

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_revenue_to_GDP_ratio

Whataboutism

 

[The Purley King]

I don't know about @sammsky1 but my ex's family were from Hong Kong, her mum and her Aunt co-owned a takeaway that allowed them to send their combined 3 kids to private school and support their mother back home. They were loaded.

Also have to remember that private schools were a damn sight cheaper in relative terms 30 years ago (obviously not including places like Eton and Harrow). Its only semi-recently that the prices have really rocketed up. Sending two kids to a private secondary school nowadays is likely to cost £400k-£500k in total. And of course you have to pay tax on that money before you shell it out......

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

I don't rate Corbyn but lets see how the debates play out.

There aren't going to be any debates. The government has decided to opt out.

 

[Rado_N]

I wasn't intending to accuse anyone on here of being jealous of anyone else. I was just having a go at the "tax the rich" soundbites you often hear as a solution to all of society's ills. Because defining who is and isn't "rich" will depend on how much pay you personally take home and income tax rates are about as high as they should reasonably go already.

Fair enough, yea I agree with that.

I've had arguments on here in the past (notably with peterstorey) against the idea of increasing the top rate and was very much in favour of it dropping from 50p to 45p. I think there are various aspects of our tax system that are ridiculously punitive and there's a lot that could be done to make things more reasonable for even high earners.

I just hate the view that the only thing stopping people getting out of their council houses and away from minimum wage into 150k jobs is effort.

 

[paulscholes18]

Was this a surprise?

Yes, Theresa maybe has been saying for months that there won't be an early election, but now she can see there's no competition so it's an easy win and she's got the job for the next 5 years.

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

Westminster don't have to grant them a referendum though.

It depends really. If they include independence as the central part of their manifesto and they win overwhelmingly (again), then they do sort of have to be granted a referendum, even if not legally obliged. You could deny it to them, but it wouldn't help the union's case.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Fair enough, yea I agree with that.

I've had arguments on here in the past (notably with peterstorey) against the idea of increasing the top rate and was very much in favour of it dropping from 50p to 45p. I think there are various aspects of our tax system that are ridiculously punitive and there's a lot that could be done to make things more reasonable for even high earners.

I just hate the view that the only thing stopping people getting out of their council houses and away from minimum wage into 150k jobs is effort.

Yeah, likewise.

 

[ThierryHenry]

So you were privileged enough to go to Private School and born to parents rich enough to facilitate that and afford private healthcare and think that the only difference between you and the unwashed masses is they just don't work hard enough?

Sums it up really.

 

[Sweet Square]

Well, that is what you think the Tories will do.

This isn't what I think the Tories will do but what the Tories have already done, most of the things I've mentioned(The NHS,Disabled People,Immigrates,The Welfare State, Workers rights)have already being attacked by this government, a win in the next election will allow them to rid us of any protections that came with being in the EU. Just on workers rights alone -

Corbyn
-Leader of the Labour Party,
-Has the backing of most Unions(And the biggest - United)
-Used to work as representative for Unions

May
-Leader of the party that hates workers
-Part of a government that wanted to give firms the right to sack ''poorly performing staff'' without an explanation
-U-turned on putting worker representation.

Not to mention that if Labour were to get in power they would double the size of co ops(Labour policies aren't actual that far left or radical). I don't know your politics, so maybe this sort of stuff is off putting. But clearly in post briext UK it will be better for workers under a Corbyn lead Labour government than May's Conservatives. And again I'll just go back to my previous post wouldn't a Labour government be better than this Tory government ?

I would rather vote for a party that more represents my political outlook at this time.

''I'm Jill Stein and I endorse this message''

Corbyn's Labour cannot stop the Tories.

Well if you don't vote for them then yes a Corbyn lead Labour Party cannot stop the Tories. But if you do, it does increase the chance of Labour stopping the Tories.

 

[Ultimate Grib]

I don't know about @sammsky1 but my ex's family were from Hong Kong, her mum and her Aunt co-owned a takeaway that allowed them to send their combined 3 kids to private school and support their mother back home. They were loaded.

Not putting everyone in the same basket but a big part of corner shops and takeaways doing well is not declaring a lot of the cash income and channeling it through personal accounts and using it for day to day expenses hence avoiding tax. It's possibly the reason why he won't divulge their profession but I still call bullshit.