General Election 2017 | Cabinet reshuffle: Hunt re-appointed Health Secretary for record third time

[Paul the Wolf]

I think most sensible people acknowledge those people and I certainly do. I just don't think their sins justify punishing the whole group.

It's also a both a societal issue and a state issue that neither wishes to properly tackle it seems.

---

Also just to use myself as an example (well my parents) regarding the 'hard work' factor:

Dad was a fire fighter - had an accident on the job which later gave him early retirement on a 50% pension I believe (he was on pretty big money before he left, 80-100k I believe). Hasn't worked a day beyond his own hobbies since. State funded.

Mum is a social worker, a former nurse and ward sister. Loved her job but hasn't had a pay rise in 10 years (if not longer, I forget). Her work load has exponentially increased (as you will read in the papers all the time). So she's working harder, without any increase in pay.

Dad sits on his arse, earns a fortune. Mum busts her ass and it isn't reflected in her pay.

There's luck involved people.

I have great sympathy for people like your mum and it wasn't your father's fault either.
It's not people like them who are a problem, it is the system and whether it's the Tories or Labour that have caused this, instead of trying to blame the other party or the EU or whatever is an easy target they should try to resolve problems and help the people who are most genuinely in need and do something about those that are abusing the system but with the state of politics at this moment, it isn't likely to happen because all the politicians are interested in is themselves.

 

[Untied]

In fairness, I very much doubt it's their honesty he trusts.

True. Maybe it's their promise that Britain would be more stable under Cameron than Miliband.

And there is a fair point, even I am debating whether to vote Green (heart), Lib Dem (anti-Brexit head), or Labour (anti-Tory head).

But the idea that the Conservatives are a safer pair of hands than Corbyn's labour is nuts though. Equally useless.

 

[Silva]

Indeed.

People are having a right old go at you for considering voting tory, but as an additional rate tax payer i think its a no brainer.

If nothing else its interesting to hear the other side

They're having a go at him for saying shitty things about others, all while demostrating the kind of hyprocricy not seen since @Welsh Wonder turned up to an AA meeting with a crate of vodka.

 

[sammsky1]

I would say that's a shame because you could learn something, but it's pretty apparent by now that that ain't gonna happen, so continue to revel in your ignorance.

No. Maybe you should learn not abusing someone.

And while Im at it, you should learn not to chase people away from your own party. This is simply a microcosm of the state of the labour party and it stinks. The party stinks. Corbtn has ruined the labour party.

 

[Scrumpet]

There goes any slim hope of things getting sorted out in NI.

 

[Ubik]

 

[Jippy]

No. Maybe you should learn not abusing someone.

And while Im at it, you should learn not to chase people away from your own party. This is simply a microcosm of the state of the labour party and it stinks. The party stinks. Corbtn has ruined the labour party.

The grass roots members voted for him twice though. It was the party's inability to come up with an alternative candidate with any substance.

 

[Rado_N]

No. Maybe you should learn not abusing someone.

And while Im at it, you should learn not to chase people away from your own party. This is simply a microcosm of the state of the labour party and it stinks. The party stinks. Corbtn has ruined the labour party.

If you don't wanna be called ignorant then don't act ignorant, pretty simple.

For someone who spends as much time as you do having a pop at the US right you're talking an awful lot like a GOPer in here.

 

[saivet]

If I was an additional rate tax payer, I'd probably vote Tory too.

To be honest, if May wasn't so pro hard Brexit I'd consider voting for them in June. As it stands, I'll probably vote Lib Dem. Saying that I think I could be swayed to vote Tory or Labour depending on what the parties say.

 

[Untied]

No. Maybe you should learn not abusing someone.

And while Im at it, you should learn not to chase people away from your own party. This is simply a microcosm of the state of the labour party and it stinks. The party stinks. Corbtn has ruined the labour party.

If you don't believe in the redistribution of wealth through taxation the Labour Party really isn't for you

 

[sammsky1]

If you don't wanna be called ignorant then don't act ignorant, pretty simple.

For someone who spends as much time as you do having a pop at the US right you're talking an awful lot like a GOPer in here.

Who makes you the judge of ignorance???? What are your qualifications??

 

[Dobba]

No. Maybe you should learn not abusing someone.

I'm fed up paying for the whinging lazy assholes

He is a hard core left loon.

 

[kps88]

People are having a right old go at you for considering voting tory, but as an additional rate tax payer i think its a no brainer.

The argument should simply be I'll vote for whoever doesn't increase my tax rate. Be up front and honest about it. It's nothing to do with the state of Labour, hard work, access, Brexit etc. Those are all just attempts to justify it and make yourself feel better.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

True. Maybe it's their promise that Britain would be more stable under Cameron than Miliband.

And there is a fair point, even I am debating whether to vote Green (heart), Lib Dem (anti-Brexit head), or Labour (anti-Tory head).

But the idea that the Conservatives are a safer pair of hands than Corbyn's labour is nuts though. Equally useless.

I'm not sure what your talking about. I voted for Milliband in the last election and I will be voting for the Lib Dems in this election.

It really isn't crazy to think that the Tories are a safer pair of hands than Corbyn. As a leader Corbyn is completely incompetent in every aspect which will see him crushed in this election.

 

[Rado_N]

Who makes you the judge of ignorance???? What are your qualifications??

Reading your posts.

 

[NinjaFletch]

no need for you to know.

The problem with these discussion is instead of being about understanding others views, it become personal and about right or wrong. I dont have to justify myself here.

not really. What they did has no relevance beyond they worked hard. Seems people on here are scared or incapable of working hard. ie: leave the EU.

Lets put it this way then.

You've told us they were top rate tax payers and you're now being evasive so I think its fair to assume they were highly skilled and perhaps University educated in their home country. You've so far tried to give the impression they ploughed away at minimum wage jobs to give you the advantage they did, but we can dispense with that from what you've already said (and I point out that you freely offered that yourself when it was convenient for you to do so) so its not like its outrageous to ask what profession they did to mean they had to pay so much tax.

I don't know where your parents came from, but I'd bet all the money in the world that there are thousands of others with as good a work ethic as your parents who were not able to come to the UK and send their children to private school with private health plans within years of their arrival.

My guess is then that your parents themselves enjoyed a degree of privilege not available to others in their home country. Whether thats all true or partially true to act like its hard work and hard work alone thats got you were you are in life is bullshit.

 

[rcoobc]

The argument should simply be I'll vote for whoever doesn't increase my tax rate. Be up front and honest about it. It's nothing to do with the state of Labour, hard work, access, Brexit etc. Those are all just attempts to justify it and make yourself feel better.

I think that is excellent advice for Mr Sky. No one could have argued with that one. But to be fair, he did say he was voting tory "for the first time ever". Something has changed for him.

They're having a go at him for saying shitty things about others, all while demostrating the kind of hyprocricy not seen since @Welsh Wonder turned up to an AA meeting with a crate of vodka.

 

[PedroMendez]

Wow. That escalated quickly.

If you are an employee with a high income (e.g. 100k+), you have to pay a crazy amount of taxes without any of these mystical “loopholes” or other cheating having significance for you. These people already pay a lion’s share of the tax burden. Just look it up. Sure, you can live a great life, but you are hardly owning your own private jet, multiple apartments all over the world or drinking Champaign out of golden glasses (auxesis!). Somehow the caf manages to equate these people with billionaire investors, who are in no way representative for the “1%” (I hate this classification in the first place), but are more like the 0,001%.

The idea that taxing this group of people is the modern equivalence of playing Robin Hood is delusional.

 

[Abizzz]

Out of interest, what is wrong with voting Tory?

-You're making yourself into Murdoch's lemming.
-Boris Johnson
-Theresa May
-Phillip Hammond
-Amber Rudd
-Liam Fox
-David Davis

That said, if I had a vote in this, I'd probably be reluctant to vote labour myself, and go with the Lib Dems.

 

[altodevil]

I feel completely pointless on the political side of things right now. I think I'd feel even worse if I didn't at least have indyref 2 to cling onto being a Scot. How the hell do left-leaning people down south cope when the outlook is so bleak?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Wow. That escalated quickly.

If you are an employee with a high income (e.g. 100k+), you have to pay a crazy amount of taxes without any of these mystical “loopholes” or other cheating having significance for you. These people already pay a lion’s share of the tax burden. Just look it up. Sure, you can live a great life, but you are hardly not owning your own private jet, multiple apartments all over the world or drinking Champaign out of golden glasses (auxesis!). Somehow the caf manages to equate these people with billionaire investors, who are in no way representative for the “1%” (I hate this classification in the first place), but are more like the 0,001%.

The idea that taxing this group of people is the modern equivalence of playing Robin Hood is delusional.

Amen to that.

But good luck convincing @Mozza that these people aren't basically the devil incarnate.

They're low hanging fruit for the Corbynites, of course. Envy is a powerful emotion. Any policy that is intended to make people who are "richer than you" a little less well off will always appeal. Whether or not these people are already contributing more than their fair share to the exchequer.

 

[Crossie]

Why should I vote Labour? Why shoukd anyone vote labour?

Especially, why should Leave voter's vote labour?

Sorry, sammsky1, but please do not pretend that there's just the choice of Tories and Labour, and please don't shy away from accepting the full consequence of a Tory vote as I've outlined above but will repeat:
If you vote for the Tories, stop complaining in the future about anything they introduce and say which you have mandated them for, i.e. hard Brexit, bombings in the Middle East and beating the anti-muslim drum.

 

[sammsky1]

@Dobba What did you prove? Name the poster I abusive about. Go on. Instead Ive received a truck load.

Seriously, the desire to 'be right' is so insecure. Have your own position and vote. Why are you so hellbent wanting 'to beat me'?

Anyways, I think what this debate has taught me is that I do not personify at all with the socialist ideals labour voters in this thread seem to advocate. It makes sense because this is the spit between Labour MPs right now. Instead of trying to find a place for these voters, the extreme left will expel them from voting for the party.

Until, Labour can resolve this they wont get back in.

 

[DenisIrwin]

Agree 100%. I think if sammsky1 was honest with himself then he'd come to the realisation that for most people, voting in their own best interest is what they'll do. No shame in that.
I was lucky enough to have private schooling for secondary school and trust me, even if your grades are only marginally better than what you would have got elsewhere, it gives you a huge leg up in lots of other ways.

Its why I'm currently working my nuts off trying to give my own kids the same leg up.

Learnt the other day that something like 75% of BBC executives (or maybe just employees) are ex-public school. Also that the BBC has employed a hell of a lot of out and out Tories, particularly over the past few years.

 

[rcoobc]

Just to add some numbers to this whole debate

Gross wage of £300k becomes a gross wage of £170k. Take home pay of 56.6%. Over 30 years, that's £4.5m

Edit - Gross

 

[sammsky1]

Wow. That escalated quickly.

If you are an employee with a high income (e.g. 100k+), you have to pay a crazy amount of taxes without any of these mystical “loopholes” or other cheating having significance for you. These people already pay a lion’s share of the tax burden. Just look it up. Sure, you can live a great life, but you are hardly not owning your own private jet, multiple apartments all over the world or drinking Champaign out of golden glasses (auxesis!). Somehow the caf manages to equate these people with billionaire investors, who are in no way representative for the “1%” (I hate this classification in the first place), but are more like the 0,001%.

The idea that taxing this group of people is the modern equivalence of playing Robin Hood is delusional.

Absolutely nuts! And worse, I certainly wont labour if this is the reception I get.

Its not about me of course, there are many like me, I doubt we can find a space in Labour.

 

[rcoobc]

Great...

 

[Dobba]

What did you prove? Name the poster I abusive about. Go one.

Seriously, the desire to 'be right' is so insecure. Have your own position and vote. Why are you so hellbent wanting 'to beat me'?

Oh it's about posters, who are different to the other people you abused because reasons.

As for the second part of this, I hope you're kidding. Your entire posting history in this thread is how much harder you and your family have worked, so you're either kidding or one of the biggest hypocrites I've had the misfortune to come across. You're now playing the victim after labelling a vast number of people as being 'whinging lazy assholes'.

 

[sammsky1]

Sorry, sammsky1, but please do not pretend that there's just the choice of Tories and Labour, and please don't shy away from accepting the full consequence of a Tory vote as I've outlined above but will repeat:
If you vote for the Tories, stop complaining in the future about anything they introduce and say which you have mandated them for, i.e. hard Brexit, bombings in the Middle East and beating the anti-muslim drum.

Thank you for your civility.

You make a very good point, but I just feel incredibly compromised in both directions.

I don't rate Corbyn but lets see how the debates play out.

 

[rcoobc]

I feel completely pointless on the political side of things right now. I think I'd feel even worse if I didn't at least have indyref 2 to cling onto being a Scot. How the hell do left-leaning people down south cope when the outlook is so bleak?

Cry

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Just to add some numbers to this whole debate

Net wage of £300k becomes a gross wage of £170k. Take home pay of 56.6%. Over 30 years, that's £4.5m

I'd wager a guess that anyone who has 300k/year taxable income (all taxed by PAYE) over 30 years is closer to the 0.001% than they are to the 1%.

 

[kps88]

Its not about me of course, there are many like me, I doubt we can find a space in Labour.

Of course you won't find a space considering you fundamentally disagree with them on a pretty major issue, which is fair enough. I'm amazed you haven't voted Tory before.

 

[altodevil]

Absolutely nuts! And worse, I certainly wont labour if this is the reception I get.

Its not about me of course, there are many like me, I doubt we can find a space in Labour.

You wouldn't need to if we had an electoral system that allowed more than two successful parties.

 

[sammsky1]

Oh it's about posters, who are different to the other people you abused because reasons.

As for the second part of this, I hope you're kidding. Your entire posting history in this thread is how much harder you and your family have worked, so you're either kidding or one of the biggest hypocrites I've had the misfortune to come across. You're now playing the victim after labelling a vast number of people as being 'whinging lazy assholes'.

Victim?? LoL. OK then.

 

[Silva]

Lazy whinging assholes deserve some respect, we easily make up about 90% of the world.

 

[rcoobc]

Lazy whinging assholes deserve some respect, we easily make up about 90% of the world.

Our money doesn't though...

 

[Untied]

I'm not sure what your talking about. I voted for Milliband in the last election and I will be voting for the Lib Dems in this election.

It really isn't crazy to think that the Tories are a safer pair of hands than Corbyn. As a leader Corbyn is completely incompetent in every aspect which will see him crushed in this election.

If you look at the current government and think that is a safe pair of hands I feel for you

 

[Randall Flagg]

Amen to that.

But good luck convincing @Mozza that these people aren't basically the devil incarnate.

They're low hanging fruit for the Corbynites, of course. Envy is a powerful emotion. Any policy that is intended to make people who are "richer than you" a little less well off will always appeal. Whether or not these people are already contributing more than their fair share to the exchequer.

Ive no idea in the UK, but over here its also anything about 50K per year and you are fecked up the hole

 

[Dobba]

Victim?? LoL. OK then.

Cheap shots. of course you have no valid or worthy opposition. Much too much hard work to type out an answer.

 

[rcoobc]

I'd wager a guess that anyone who has 300k/year taxable income (all taxed by PAYE) over 30 years is closer to the 0.001% than they are to the 1%.

Well this is the other thing.

I have no idea what Sammy does, but if he has the opportunity to start his own firm, and pay himself a low wage, with the rest in dividends..

19% corporation tax + 7.5% dividends tax = 26.5% tax (ish). And I don't think there is any cap.

No employers or employees national insurance.

Then he can pay himself the big bucks. And earn off of other people's backs.

Two ways to make big money; either own an equity in something or earn someone else a lot of money. But the former is much bigger than the latter.