Gareth Southgate

SirBillNic said:
You must have a pretty remarkable memory to be able to remember every exact chance England created in each game.
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Those games happened in the last 2 weeks, and it's easy to remember because nothing much happened across them...
My impression and the impression of most other observers, though (and not just from this tournament) is that Southgate's plan is to attack when behind and defend when ahead.
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You, and "most observers", either have shit memory or you don't understand what you were seeing

It's very clearly the tactic, and it's very clear that England look much more threatening when behind. In the last 4 games the opponent scored first and then we kicked into gear and scored ourselves.
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It's very clearly not the tactic. It's very clearly down to England being mediocre, and thus not doing anything well. Netherlands game aside, when they went behind immediately, in the other games england only started to look more threatening late on because of the combination of desperately throwing attacking players on the pitch plus rivals dropping back to protect the lead. And they were never particularly threatening either, because, again, they were mediocre

These players should play a lot better, and the reason they don't is clear to see.
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I literally said this. What you fail to understand is "play better" doesn't mean play like Spain. Play better, for this team, most likely takes the form of how they played in Qatar
 
Yakuza_devils said:
It's unbelievable that the decision to stay or leave as England manager is still down to him to decide. The England FA don't any better candidate, really?
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I hope they’re just making it seem this way out of respect to him. England will never win anything with him
 
LawCharltonBest said:
I hope they’re just making it seem this way out of respect to him. England will never win anything with him
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Southgate never won anything as a player or manager. Spain's manager has won tournaments at lower age levels with Spain (including with some of his current squad). He also knows how to with as a player with Athletic Club.
 
Kopral Jono said:
Brazil in 2002 I don't really see how that one would have panned out differently but the two Portugal quarters in 2004 and 2006, I think with a bit of discipline and tactical nous we see from Southgate's England the results easily could have gone the other way.
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There’s your error right there. Southgate has proven during his time in charge he has no tactical nous.
 
DomesticTadpole said:
Southgate never won anything as a player or manager. Spain's manager has won tournaments at lower age levels with Spain (including with some of his current squad). He also knows how to with as a player with Athletic Club.
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He won a league cup with Middlesbrough and the Toulon tournament with the England U21s.
 
So, does he become Manchester United manager in the future then? What's the verdict? :confused:
 
Yakuza_devils said:
It's unbelievable that the decision to stay or leave as England manager is still down to him to decide. The England FA don't any better candidate, really?
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Surely he must know his time is up. I think he saw the anger at his tactics during the group stage and he saw people’s reactions. He must have some self awareness. Even if he wants to stay, he must know that’s not possible. The FA can go feck themselves quite frankly, he should have left after the Italy match.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
England still don't produce enough quality deep lying midfielders who are press resistant, able to pass under pressure and dictate games from deep. Today all England had was Mainoo. Spain had Rodri, Fabian Ruiz, Merino, Zubimendi to call on today. Without even mentioning the injured Pedri.
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All of England’s players play out from the back for their clubs. Pickford launching it from the first whistle today was quite embarrassing, as there was no need to do it constantly. Would it be nice if Rice was at the level of Rodri, sure, but I don’t think that’s the cause of the disparity between the sides on the ball.
 
Dan_F said:
All of England’s players play out from the back for their clubs. Pickford launching it from the first whistle today was quite embarrassing, as there was no need to do it constantly. Would it be nice if Rice was at the level of Rodri, sure, but I don’t think that’s the cause of the disparity between the sides on the ball.
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It's amazing how everyone knows Spain press that high and there didn't seem to be any tactical work done on how to beat the press beside hoof it forward. Pickford can pass it and has shown that but work should have been done tactically on beating the press.
 
Dan_F said:
All of England’s players play out from the back for their clubs. Pickford launching it from the first whistle today was quite embarrassing, as there was no need to do it constantly. Would it be nice if Rice was at the level of Rodri, sure, but I don’t think that’s the cause of the disparity between the sides on the ball.
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Every player was launching it. There was no tactic to beat the press aside from that from Southgate as the defence would either launch it or give it to Pickford to launch it whenever he played it short to them.
 
Abraxas said:
You'd be a good PR man for Gareth, so he can't play decent football because of deep lying playmakers,...
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Its fact not "PR". France suffered the SELF sane issues all tournament long. The issue I always have with fans of your ilk is you conflate internstional ball with club ball. Yet it hinges heavily on the personnel you have available. On top of the fact you consistently pretend your national team is packed with the best footballers known to man in all departments thus EVERY coach is automatically "rubbish" for not playing City football consistently with them. I fully expect the point to go over your head and you to reply with the joke narrative of "defending Gareth" :rolleyes:


Abraxas said:
England have the players to be playing better than this against Serbia, Slovakia and Switzerland. And Iceland. That is the bottom line......
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I don't matter how often you repeat this joke mantra in a mirror. It doesn't matter and will NEVER work that way. But because as per usual y'all pretend every nation you face is "rubbish in all departments and all their styles of plan.

Y'all think you are entitled to boss any side you come across inspite of inherent weaknesses you already have as a team.

Thats why you always come as "a surprise" to y'all why can't be feee free flowing vs park the bus merchants who scored you first (Iceland)for example. Because you never pay any attention to what the opponents bring to the table. Every match vs the big boys your attitude is "lads is tottenham". That is why even before the match nation's your football covering outlet's had combined XIs with players like Kane in the combined XI ahead of their Spanish counterparts from over the length of the tournament. :lol:
 
SilentWitness said:
I was just pointing out that he did win things as a player/manager since you said he hadn't.
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You are right. Just think we could do better, but they will likely go for an out of touch manager or another yes man. Think Gareth has done a lot of good for England but we need someone to just take us that bit further.
 
The folks still defending Southgate and claiming he's the best manager they've ever had because he lucked his way into 2 finals, is why England wont ever win shit.

Plays shit on a stick football with one of the best England generations, and yet you have people saying he has "figured out International football". The cycle goes like :

Plays anti-football and gets knocked out - > Wins couple of easy fixtures - > "Its coming home" -> Plays anti-football and gets knocked out.

This is exactly why I enjoy seeing England lose, the boom bust cycle is hilarious everytime :lol:
 
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mikeyt said:
It pains me when I hear this tripe about him being our best manager since Sir Alf Ramsey. Sadly, because England have had a consistent run of deep tournament runs, that will always be the case. It won't matter about the negative dross, the lack of adaptability and the failures when there really shouldn't have been failures. The reality is, he's brought a great togetherness the squad and the culture around the squad appears to be a lot more harmonious than it has been in decades. But the monumental failure against a poor Italy at Wembley for me is the biggest failure of any England manager. That tournament and that final was on a plate for him and he failed.

Losing to Spain yesterday was to be expected imo, however his tactics yet again were appalling. You cannot invite Spain on for 80 of the 90 minutes with that defence and expect to win. We have some of the best footballers in world football if you believe the media, yet at no point in this tournament did Southgate know how to properly utilise them.

He'd be a great assistant manager in the PL imo in bringing together a group of players and creating a good atmosphere however tactically he simply isn't up to it. Time for change before this group is wasted.
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Or just make him England media manager or something random. He’s clearly liked by the high ups there, he’s just got no real credentials as a coach to make anyone think he can win a major trophy.
 
DomesticTadpole said:
You are right. Just think we could do better, but they will likely go for an out of touch manager or another yes man. Think Gareth has done a lot of good for England but we need someone to just take us that bit further.
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I agree, Southgate needs to go. If they want to promote from within Carsley would be a decent option I suppose. Won the Euros and he has experience with the next cycle of England players that are already in the squad like Palmer, Gordon etc.
 
Dan_F said:
All of England’s players play out from the back for their clubs. Pickford launching it from the first whistle today was quite embarrassing, as there was no need to do it constantly. Would it be nice if Rice was at the level of Rodri, sure, but I don’t think that’s the cause of the disparity between the sides on the ball.
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It most certainly is. In they are consistently protected by a deep familiarity with a system they pay in week in week out that doesn't heavily rely on their imdovidu quality. Plus deep familiarity with the teammates of the given system. In international ball their individual qualities will always over ride what they can do at club level. Collectively that matters vs other collectives.
 
Southgate should resign, i fear things would only turn toxic from here, there have already been undertones of it this tournament.

If pochettino was interested id take him in a heartbeat, but if we are sticking with an englishmen we have to do everything to convince eddie howe to take the job.
 
he’s always been a spineless worm. no point fecking him off unless half the fa go with him.
 
3 times in a row they get the easy draw and lose to the first better team they play.

Gareth has taken england as far as they can go but he doesn't have the ability to get passed that final hurdle when they come up against a top team.
 
I reckon the first call he made last night was to Kalvin Phillips, telling him how much we need him and to play himself back into contention for the WC qualifiers.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
It most certainly is. In they are consistently protected by a deep familiarity with a system they pay in week in week out that doesn't heavily rely on their imdovidu quality. Plus deep familiarity with the teammates of the given system. In international ball their individual qualities will always over ride what they can do at club level. Collectively that matters vs other collectives.
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So swap Rice and Rodri and England play like Spain? That’s the point I was making. It’s clear that the Spanish have a defined style on the ball, that most of their club sides adopt also. I think the English players are technically good enough to play that way, but a few are maybe adapting a bit later in their career, rather than the Spanish who have always played that way from a young age.

I do think that’s changed in the academy’s and youth set up in England now. That’s why we’re seeing players like Foden and Mainoo come through. Get a proper manager in who can set the team up more effectively and I think it makes a big difference.
 
SilentWitness said:
Every player was launching it. There was no tactic to beat the press aside from that from Southgate as the defence would either launch it or give it to Pickford to launch it whenever he played it short to them.
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I wasn’t digging out Pickford specifically as it was clearly an instruction from the manager. He’s the most obvious one as the move starts with him, especially from goal kicks.
 
He’s chasing 96’ redemption so hard and desperate to be a national hero, I don’t think he understand just how much of a national villain he will become if he overstays his welcome and wastes this entire generation.
 
Dan_F said:
I wasn’t digging out Pickford specifically as it was clearly an instruction from the manager. He’s the most obvious one as the move starts with him, especially from goal kicks.
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Yeah, Im just clarifying it was a Southgate thing. I watched back the game this morning to see how Pickford did and played and in the first 60ish, he played alright in terms of distribution. He was booting it long at times but he played some nice long balls to Saka and Foden at times, but then there were a few misses or balls he played to Kane which Kane didn't even try to compete for (he hasn't all tournament). When he played it short though he struggled because he would play it and then get it back again and have little or no outlet aside from the long ball. Tactically Southgate had no answer for the press aside from boot it long and when you don't have a striker like DCL or Toney who can hold it up or win it, or you have Kane who could but seemingly can't or doesn't anymore, you're very limited and will struggle.
 
It's such a shame for the FA to make such big changes to football at "grassroots" level, only to waste all that hard work keeping this bloke in a job. It's time to move on and get someone who can truly make the most of all the talent we have.
 
Pexbo said:
He’s chasing 96’ redemption so hard and desperate to be a national hero, I don’t think he understand just how much of a national villain he will become if he overstays his welcome and wastes this entire generation.
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The funnny thing is England are consistently producing good young players now that Southgate can feasibly do what he does for the next 8-10 years. Only Kane, Maguire and Walker will be finished after the next WC, and there are replacements for all of them.
 
Has to go now. I can't see how any players in that squad genuinely believe they'll win something with him in charge.

Problems started with the squad selection, with those issue compounded by him falling into the exact same "play the stars" trap that previous managers have fallen into (which he pretended he had avoided by leaving Rashford and Grealish at home). The knock on of this was him still trying to figure out the tactics late into the knockout stage, which he still didn't actually know by the time the full-time whistle had blown in the final.

Yes, he reached another final as manager, but he was saved from humiliation against Slovakia by a 95th minute overhead kick from Bellingham, and against Switzerland by a long-range effort from Saka. The two goals against Netherlands were a dodgy penalty and a stoppage time winner from a tight angle. Even the goal last night was a largely speculative strike. Limped to the final then lost, deservedly.

I also don't remotely buy this "England's players aren't actually that good" line. We left a squad of players behind that could have been reasonably competitive. The most represented club in that Spain squad were Real Sociedad, who finished 6th, 16 points off the CL places, so it's hardly like the 2010 World Cup or 2012 Euros where over half their squad came from just Real Madrid and Barcelona.
 
GlasgowCeltic said:
He definitely subs on Rashford or Grealish today if he’d called them up, but he picked Gordon and Bowen and didn’t think either would do anything when it mattered
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Bang on. He’s fecked England tbh

I genuinely couldn’t believe what I was watching. Straight from kick off it was long ball and then all they did for the rest of the match was have Pickford launch it long. They have far better players than to play that way
 
Same thing, different tournament.

When you have a manager that deals in fine margins whoever they are playing then no matter how lucky you are, you will eventually lose one of these close games.

Its been happening with Southgate for years, he's been a very very fortunate manager because he tends to get favourable opposition and those fine margins tend to go his way even in these games.

Very rarely do you get to win tournaments by scraping by in every game.

If he stays on after this then England are truly their own worst enemy.
 
giorno said:
Yeah, that's one of the points I was making


Stop thinking in terms of attack or defence. That wasn't the issue. England were a very well coached side, with a clear identity, structure, understanding of their strenghts and weaknesses, and an effective playing style through 3 tournaments under Southgate. This was different. He came into this tournament having no clue whatsoever about his team. The things he'd been working on for the past 18 months, what he'd been coaching his team to do over that span, was exposed and taken apart in the March friendlies. He got to the Euros having no plan beyond presumably giving himself flexibility in terms of options, and just rely on the star players to carry the day basically. Worse, he compounded that by ultimately not really making use of those options, instead insisting on the same 4 guys despite clear indications that it wasn't going to work

This was a terrible managerial job, but it went well beyond wrong tactics or playing style


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Spot on
 
Ayush_reddevil said:
It’s crazy really, for example at 1-1 I actually think his mistake was to not bring on an extra midfielder as England were too open while most people think that his mistake was sitting back.
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He had Gallagher ready to come on just before the goal. Once again, he was far too late to react. It should have been fairly obvious once getting that goal that you might want to get Bellingham out of midfield and some fresh legs in there and ultimately they were able to play right through the midfield for the winner.
 
Looking at this whole tournament, regardless of not winning the final, he has failed at his job. To not have a set tactic and idea of how to play coming into the tournament and instead to rely on defensive football when you have the type of players at his disposal in my opinion is criminal. An England team with these players, where the majority of them play for front foot, high pressing teams should not be asked to sit deep in a low block. Its as if these Englands teams are too scared to even attempt to dominate a game, and it is not down to players.

Secondly, as long as England managers keep trying to shoe horn players in rather than actually deciding on a system first and then the players they will continue to fail. The simple truth is if you want to play both Bellingham and Foden then you play Bellingham as an 8. If not then only one of them can play. If you want to play Harry Kane then you surround him with speedy wingers, not just Saka. As good as Guehi was if you don't have a left footed LB then you need a left footed LCB. All of this comes on the manager and his failure to prepare.

All the talk about how this England team is different to the golden generation but tbh its just been more of the same.
 
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