Gareth Southgate

Malons said:
Look at Portugals route to final in 2016. Nobody cared. It isn't defending Southgate to point out these arguments only seem to apply when they apply to England
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They don't apply to the winners because they got over the line and won the competition. The context of Southgate's failures are that he is basically always beaten by the first good team he comes up against, and in this tournament, he barely scraped by the other teams anyway.

Euro 2024 - Slovakia (ranked 45th), Switzerland (ranked 19th), Netherlands (ranked 7th) - lost to Spain (ranked 8th).
World Cup 2022 - Senegal (ranked 18th) - lost to France (ranked 4th).
Euro 2020 - Germany (ranked 12th), Ukraine (ranked 24th), Denmark (ranked 10th) - lost to Italy (ranked 7th).
World Cup 2018 - Colombia (ranked 17th), Sweden (ranked 21st) - lost to Croatia (ranked 12th).

The only two wins against top 10 teams are Netherlands and Denmark, neither of which were actually that great, and the same applies to the only other decent looking win against Germany.
 
Alex99 said:
They don't apply to the winners because they got over the line and won the competition. The context of Southgate's failures are that he is basically always beaten by the first good team he comes up against, and in this tournament, he barely scraped by the other teams anyway.

Euro 2024 - Slovakia (ranked 45th), Switzerland (ranked 19th), Netherlands (ranked 7th) - lost to Spain (ranked 8th).
World Cup 2022 - Senegal (ranked 18th) - lost to France (ranked 4th).
Euro 2020 - Germany (ranked 12th), Ukraine (ranked 24th), Denmark (ranked 10th) - lost to Italy (ranked 7th).
World Cup 2018 - Colombia (ranked 17th), Sweden (ranked 21st) - lost to Croatia (ranked 12th).

The only two wins against top 10 teams are Netherlands and Denmark, neither of which were actually that great, and the same applies to the only other decent looking win against Germany.
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Meanwhile, in this tournament alone, Spain beat France (2nd), England (5th), Croatia (9th), Italy (10th) and Germany (16th), who despite their relatively low ranking were quite clearly the second best team in the tournament. Twice as many wins against top 10 opposition as England have had in four tournaments combined. England have only been drawn against one top 10 team in the group stages as well (Belgium in 2018, 0-1 loss).

Really drives home just how lucky England have been with their group and knockout draws under Southgate and how deserved Spain's win was this year. England probably wouldn't even have made it out of the group if they'd swapped places with Spain.
 
Not counting 1966 WC win, England's best results on World Cup have been 2 semis (1990, 2018). Best results at Euros are 2 finals in 2021 and 2024. 3 out of those 4 under Southgate. You could say but it's with teams stacked with quality players and playing poor brand of football but England also had that golden generation in 2000s and they never achieved anything significant. So for those reasons I can see FA keeping him for 2026 World Cup, but not beyond that after he lost 2 Euro finals.
 
Does this mean Southgate won’t be coming to United to school them in how to take penalties. The water bottle ritual and all that?
 
BorisManUtd said:
Not counting 1966 WC win, England's best results on World Cup have been 2 semis (1990, 2018). Best results at Euros are 2 finals in 2021 and 2024. 3 out of those 4 under Southgate. You could say but it's with teams stacked with quality players and playing poor brand of football but England also had that golden generation in 2000s and they never achieved anything significant. So for those reasons I can see FA keeping him for 2026 World Cup, but not beyond that after he lost 2 Euro finals.
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The 2000s generation also faced a period where just about every big nation had great teams.
 
The Germany that England beat were ranked 12th in summer 2021.

The Germany that Spain beat are ranked 16th.

But this is England so let's guess which Germany is categorised as "doesn't really count as a topn team" and which one were (apparently) clearly the second best side of the tournament
 
BorisManUtd said:
Not counting 1966 WC win, England's best results on World Cup have been 2 semis (1990, 2018). Best results at Euros are 2 finals in 2021 and 2024. 3 out of those 4 under Southgate. You could say but it's with teams stacked with quality players and playing poor brand of football but England also had that golden generation in 2000s and they never achieved anything significant. So for those reasons I can see FA keeping him for 2026 World Cup, but not beyond that after he lost 2 Euro finals.
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Must we roll this line out each time! The only reason Southgate has got far in tournaments has been the piss easy draws he has been given. As soon as we come up against one decent, we lose. He motivates well but is tactically inept. We won't win anything with him in charge and we will see another generation of decent players roll by. He's had his time, his contract is up, he needs to go.
 
Malons said:
The Germany that England beat were ranked 12th in summer 2021.

The Germany that Spain beat are ranked 16th.

But this is England so let's guess which Germany is categorised as "doesn't really count as a topn team" and which one were (apparently) clearly the second best side of the tournament
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I mean Belgium are ranked 3rd in the world so shouldn't they be winning the whole thing or in the final?
 
Looks like he's leaving. If ever there was a time for the fan base to join together as one in support of Erik it is now. Please.
 
Malons said:
The Germany that England beat were ranked 12th in summer 2021.

The Germany that Spain beat are ranked 16th.

But this is England so let's guess which Germany is categorised as "doesn't really count as a topn team" and which one were (apparently) clearly the second best side of the tournament
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You can bring out whatever rankings you liked.

I watched the Germany side England beat and I watched the Germany side Spain beat.

This years version were a different class and everybody knows it.
 
Kopral Jono said:
Italy struggled against Austria, impressive in the Belgium quarters and Spain ran them very close in the semis. Overall worthy winners but if it had gone England's way in the final no one would have complained. They were really impressive in the group stages, though.

On bolded which three sides? My first proper tournament was Euro 96 and in my lifetime I could only think of two sides who have gone all the way by grinding out results and sheer luck: Greece in 2004 and Portugal in 2016.
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Italy in 2006 were a great defensive side but did not play attacking football or anything. Portugal and Greece in those 2 weren't the best side and grinded things out so don't want to put them in the same boat, but generally tried to say most of the other years if not all I'd say it was deservedly won by the best attacking side
 
I see he's come out about Kane:
Physically, it's been a tough period for Harry [Kane]. He came in short of games and didn't quite get up to the level we'd all hope.
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The Southgate bingo - happy to throw players under the bus despite his "nice guy" image, and highlights his ineptitude - why play him so much when you know you've got very capable back-ups to him?
 
SouthMancRed said:
Looks like he's leaving. If ever there was a time for the fan base to join together as one in support of Erik it is now. Please.
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Based on what?

He said he’s going to need time to make a decision. It’s the exact play he made when Italy beat us. He already knew then that he was going nowhere and the FA weren’t going to push him and we all said as much at the time.

He’s just said exactly the same thing. The FA won’t push him. The only way it happens is if the players start to voice their concerns over him or the media turn on him. Judging by the media this morning it’s about 50/50. If he decides to stay it will be harder for him and he will be under a lot of scrutiny.
 
Pexbo said:
Based on what?

He said he’s going to need time to make a decision. It’s the exact play he made when Italy beat us. He already knew then that he was going nowhere and the FA weren’t going to push him and we all said as much at the time.

He’s just said exactly the same thing. The FA won’t push him. The only way it happens is if the players start to voice their concerns over him or the media turn on him. Judging by the media this morning it’s about 50/50. If he decides to stay it will be harder for him and he will be under a lot of scrutiny.
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His contract is up at the end of this year, they would need to give him a new contract for him to stay. It would be a diabolical decision but nothing surprises me of the FA and the people who praise him.
 
Rooney in Paris said:
I see he's come out about Kane:

The Southgate bingo - happy to throw players under the bus despite his "nice guy" image, and highlights his ineptitude - why play him so much when you know you've got very capable back-ups to him?
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That is something the whole world wants to know from Southgoat.

He also threw Shaw and Mainoo under the bus.
 
He just isn't a front foot manager at all.

Would be a very hard watch for fans of any prem team he manages and he would last max six months imo unless it was just a team who wants to stay up or minimal ambition for mid table safety e.g. Fulham.

I'm sure in the season Boro were relegated they went about 10 away matches without scoring a goal, will have to check that season again.

Staggering to see how bad England were going forward and creating decent chances with the talent they had available, that is simply bad coaching and strategy.

Would fail very badly at Man. United and that's the view of most of this forum. I presume the only reason he's being linked is because of Dan Ashworth and also all of Shaw, Maguire, Rashford and Mount love playing for him so that would create additional problems when some of those need to be moved out.
 
Rooney in Paris said:
I see he's come out about Kane:

The Southgate bingo - happy to throw players under the bus despite his "nice guy" image, and highlights his ineptitude - why play him so much when you know you've got very capable back-ups to him?
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That comment from Southgate says it all.
 
Just a basic look at results against top/good sides since he took over. Obviously a lot of these are friendlies but they still show a struggle to get wins against the better teams.

Spain:
2-2, 1-2, 3-2, 1-2
P4 - W1 - D1 - L2

Germany:
0-1, 0-0, 2-0, 1-1, 3-3
P5 - W1 - D3 - L1

France:
2-3, 1-2
P2 - L2

Brazil:
0-0, 0-1
P2 - D1 - L1

Netherlands:
1-0, 1-3, 2-1
P3 - W2 - L1

Italy:
1-1, 1-1, 0-0, 0-1, 2-1, 3-1
P6 - W2 - D3 - L1

Belgium:
0-1, 0-2, 2-1, 0-2, 2-2
P5 - W1 - D1 - L3

Croatia:
1-2, 0-0, 2-1, 1-0
P4 - W2 - D1 - L1

Denmark:
0-0, 0-1, 2-1, 1-1
P4 - W1 - D2 - L1

Total:
P35 - W10 - D12 - L13


He did reasonably well to build this group of players into a squad that can consistently reach the latter stages of tournaments but it's also been clear since the final in 2021 that he can't take them any further. The 3 years since have basically been wasted, let's not make that mistake again.
 
I think it’s unfair to level nothing but criticism towards Southgate for his tenure.

Ultimately during this time he has of course benefitted from having selection of some of the finest talent in Europe, but this isn’t new. Glenn Hoddle had it, Kevin Keegan had it, Sven had it and to some extent so did Capello.

For all of Southgate’s mistakes and tactical shortcomings, there has been legitimate belief over the last 3 tournaments and the outside chance they earned in 2018. Obviously Qatar became a bit of a disaster, and coming up short in two finals is not the success you’d celebrate, but he’s definitely had a positive influence in making this squad believe they can achieve, whereas so called golden generations of the past couldn’t even split from their club factions and let those bygones be.

That being said, if Southgate doesn’t walk away himself, because he comes across someone who is a man of principle, then that’s where the toxicity comes and probably is justified. He’s done as well as he can, now it’s time for a legitimate coach to come and take the core group to the next level. Of course I have no idea who that is or who would want the job.
 
No need for micro analyzing, everybody and their dog would have told you that England will win nothing with him in charge. Just and average coach who very often gets lucky draws. I haven't seen England play dominantly against a big side under him when it matters.
 
astracrazy said:
100%. This was obvious for at least 10 minutes and unless he made a change the goal was coming, yet all you saw was him on the sidelines talking about it.

It's a rinse and repeat cycle. Against lesser teams we can essentially bully our way through a game by having better players. Once we come up against the good teams, where the manager is worth their weight, he gets tactically out classed from the first whistle and out classed during the game. Happens every time.

I struggle to understand how he can be so behind the curve from what everyone else can see is happening in a game. I'm not sure I have seen a manager so inept with in game management.
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He’s just a baby in terms of managerial experience. How many games do manager’s usually have before moving to a top side, of course you get exceptions like Alonso and Pep, but the vast majority will have huge club careers to cut their teeth every week before managing international teams.

You don’t really have any time to learn on the job as an international manager. One thing he’s clearly done well at is establishing a culture and relieving pressure. He’d probably benefit from a really strong number two and delegating tactical training.
 
TheGame said:
Must we roll this line out each time! The only reason Southgate has got far in tournaments has been the piss easy draws he has been given. As soon as we come up against one decent, we lose. He motivates well but is tactically inept. We won't win anything with him in charge and we will see another generation of decent players roll by. He's had his time, his contract is up, he needs to go.
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I'm not saying keeping him would be right thing to do, I'm saying that could be the thinking of the FA - playing it safe rather than going for better/different manager.
 
Red Stone said:
Meanwhile, in this tournament alone, Spain beat France (2nd), England (5th), Croatia (9th), Italy (10th) and Germany (16th), who despite their relatively low ranking were quite clearly the second best team in the tournament. Twice as many wins against top 10 opposition as England have had in four tournaments combined. England have only been drawn against one top 10 team in the group stages as well (Belgium in 2018, 0-1 loss).

Really drives home just how lucky England have been with their group and knockout draws under Southgate and how deserved Spain's win was this year. England probably wouldn't even have made it out of the group if they'd swapped places with Spain.
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It's the same story in basically every tournament. To win it, you generally have to go past at least two or three top ranked teams. Portugal actually managed to avoid any top 10 teams in 2016, but they did beat France and Croatia, the two sides that would meet in the final of the next World Cup, other than that, you're going back to Euro 2004 with Greece beating just one (France, ranked 2nd). Just going by top 10 teams beaten:

Argentina's beat France (4th) and Netherlands (8th) to win the last World Cup.

Italy beat Belgium (1st), Spain (6th) and England (4th) to win the last Euros.

France beat Belgium (5th) and Argentina (9th) to win the 2018 World Cup.

Germany beat Brazil (3rd), Portugal (4th) and Argentina (5th) to win the 2014 World Cup.

Spain beat Croatia (8th) and Portugal (10th) to win Euro 2012.

Spain beat Portugal (3rd), Netherlands (4th) and Germany (6th) to win the 2010 World Cup.

Spain beat Italy (3rd), Germany (5th) and Greece (8th) to win Euro 2008.

Italy beat Czech Republic (2nd) and France (8th) to win the 2006 World Cup.

Malons said:
The Germany that England beat were ranked 12th in summer 2021.

The Germany that Spain beat are ranked 16th.

But this is England so let's guess which Germany is categorised as "doesn't really count as a topn team" and which one were (apparently) clearly the second best side of the tournament
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Germany in 2021 were between two World Cup group stage exits. This Germany side are much better and were also playing at home.

World Rankings aren't a perfect measure, but it's not like the lower ranked sides England have beaten have been great.
 
BorisManUtd said:
I'm not saying keeping him would be right thing to do, I'm saying that could be the thinking of the FA - playing it safe rather than going for better/different manager.
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Hopefully it's not, his contract is up at the end of the year. Anyone with a brain could see our football has been poor and we need to move on from him. Sadly the FA may go for the safe option.
 
TheGame said:
There’s your error right there. Southgate has proven during his time in charge he has no tactical nous.
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I'm not buying that. Southgate is a manager whose first instincts are to defend and not the person to take England to next level, but this Euros alone obviously some of the subs and in-game tweaks he made proved to be gamechanging. If that isn't tactical nous I don't know what is.
 
You've got

Stones
Walker
Rice
Saka
Foden
Kane/Watkins

That's half the team who's coached inside out on possession football week in week out at their clubs

Add Bellingham, Mainoo, Shaw and its almost a full 11 of players who either play possession football or have enough talent to do it

If Southgate went to the toilet at kick off I'm 100 percent sure this England team can play good football. Half the team already know how to play good possession football and would require almost no input from this dinosaur

Instead he somehow makes them look like Prime Stoke
 
I would give Southgate a 10 year contract rather than see Jose in the England job at this stage of his career.

Quite like the idea of Klopp until the World Cup. Think Potter is most likely though, which will still be an upgrade on Southgate.
 
TheGame said:
Must we roll this line out each time! The only reason Southgate has got far in tournaments has been the piss easy draws he has been given. As soon as we come up against one decent, we lose. He motivates well but is tactically inept. We won't win anything with him in charge and we will see another generation of decent players roll by. He's had his time, his contract is up, he needs to go.
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Agree, Southgate got vibes but England lost the xG in every knockout 90 minutes I think.

Just pure luckboxing and the huge gap in quality getting England through till they meet a decent team, again.

For me, if the Manager has to be English, Potter is the only choice.

If we can have anyone, has to be Pep. I'd love to see if this England group could actually dominate decent opposition, even if no trophy. You need luck in cup football, like City v Real SF last season... Best team loses sometimes.

Just dismantling other top sides on a regular basis would be enough for me.
 
Kopral Jono said:
I'm not buying that. Southgate is a manager whose first instincts are to defend and not the person to take England to next level, but this Euros alone obviously some of the subs and in-game tweaks he made proved to be gamechanging. If that isn't tactical nous I don't know what is.
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I disagree, tactical nous is using your squad to form the best team, reacting in game to changes, targeting a team's weaknesses and having a clear form of play and plan. He has none of that. Just because he makes subs (still takes too long!), it doesn't show he has tactical nous. Not sure how anyone can describe he has tactical nous after England's performances in this tournament. For example against Spain he decided to play low block without any pace outlet. He had no plan to beat their press.

Compare that to Spain who had a clear plan, way of playing, plans for attack and defence. That's tactics. It's like comparing chalk and cheese.
 
Malons said:
The Germany that England beat were ranked 12th in summer 2021.

The Germany that Spain beat are ranked 16th.

But this is England so let's guess which Germany is categorised as "doesn't really count as a topn team" and which one were (apparently) clearly the second best side of the tournament
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One of the dumbest comments I've read on here.

Stop looking at rankings and start watching matches.
 
Southgate: "No hiding fitness issues, we couldn't get Kane up to speed."

With the options he had and refused to utilise, that's a sackable offence
 
The follow up question is who replaces him...if you limit yourself to an English manager the options are very limited.
 
TheGame said:
I disagree, tactical nous is using your squad to form the best team, reacting in game to changes, targeting a team's weaknesses and having a clear form of play and plan. He has none of that. Just because he makes subs (still takes too long!), it doesn't show he has tactical nous. Not sure how anyone can describe he has tactical nous after England's performances in this tournament. For example against Spain he decided to play low block without any pace outlet. He had no plan to beat their press.

Compare that to Spain who had a clear plan, way of playing, plans for attack and defence. That's tactics. It's like comparing chalk and cheese.
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Bolded are actually things he has consistently done throughout his England reign so far. They might not be to our liking but a World Cup semifinal and two Euros finals are proof that while he gets a lot of things wrong he does get things right, too. As mentioned last night England were crying out for a pacey outlet like Gordon and he fecked up on that, but Shaw over Trippier and bringing on Palmer turned out to be the right decision within the context of how he wanted to see his side play.

Really, though, a lot of the stuff he gets wrong has its roots from his cautious, and at times cowardly, approach to football and for this reason alone he clearly isn't the man to take England to the next level. But tactical nous comes in different flavours and Southgate's happen to be not many people's cup of tea.
 
ArtetasHair said:
You've got

Stones
Walker
Rice
Saka
Foden
Kane/Watkins

That's half the team who's coached inside out on possession football week in week out at their clubs

Add Bellingham, Mainoo, Shaw and its almost a full 11 of players who either play possession football or have enough talent to do it

If Southgate went to the toilet at kick off I'm 100 percent sure this England team can play good football. Half the team already know how to play good possession football and would require almost no input from this dinosaur

Instead he somehow makes them look like Prime Stoke
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This is not true at all. I can understand not rating him as a manager but I refuse to believe that these players are capable of doing much better by themselves and are playing badly because of his coaching. A lot of the players actually are unable to do anything without top coaching
 
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