Absolutely but it doesn’t change the fact that 58 years of blaming managers might indicate something else is at the heart of the matter
Gareth Southgate
- Thread starter keithsingleton
- Start date
Gordon was criminally underused in the tournament I feel. Real lack of pace on the left.
Southgate for all he is a decent man, has made too many big errors and was ultimately too cautious with a really talented group of players.
England did better than I was realistically expecting, having said that it was a wake up call about midfield and passing moves. Rice and Mainoo found it hard to take a touch and play the ball quickly as teammates werent open and on for passes without their own minders on them. The supply from midfield to the attacking players was cut off and the attacking players lost the ball too often. Plus Kane didnt offer any threat in behind the defence for a long pass from the back
Realistically I dont think Southgate will know how to fix that issue with players being better when pressed and with little space and making sure they dont lose the ball and are still able to find something progressive often enough. The players might just get better at it from playing at their club sides and in the case of Mainoo, experience.
And then theres the case of who the new manager would be. Cant think of any candidates I would expect to get to 2 finals. At some point of course you try something new but I dont know if its yet.
Realistically I dont think Southgate will know how to fix that issue with players being better when pressed and with little space and making sure they dont lose the ball and are still able to find something progressive often enough. The players might just get better at it from playing at their club sides and in the case of Mainoo, experience.
And then theres the case of who the new manager would be. Cant think of any candidates I would expect to get to 2 finals. At some point of course you try something new but I dont know if its yet.
Let the Lee Carsley era begin
Some morons on Talk Sport are saying Pep will take the job. How fecking strong is the crack they smoke over there?
well, tbf, we've gone through long stretches of saying the players are not good enough. But most don't feel that the case with this gen.
He should resign. Spain were great but England were far too negative. Also last euro final loss should have never in a million years be a loss to such a dross Italian team.
What else do you suggest the problem is? There’s been huge upheaval of the academy systems, the individual player quality is higher than it’s ever been, the players can play in possession based teams for their clubs, they’ve been bailing him out constantly with pens, last minute goals, wonder goals. He finally made a few good subs near the end of the tournament, and even then you’re wondering why he bothered starting a half fit Kane.
It’s not always been the manager’s fault in those years, but this team should be miles better. Remember when england had the likes of David batty and Heskey playing
Someone who’s managed 150 games, and relegated a team in that time, should never be in the position he’s in. He’s actually done pretty well given how much I rate him as a manager.
He definitely subs on Rashford or Grealish today if he’d called them up, but he picked Gordon and Bowen and didn’t think either would do anything when it mattered
Yeah going 58 years with the players England have had is some wild mismanagement to be honest. Sometimes it's bad luck, sometimes a lack of talent relative to others, but mismanagement is the bulk of it.
Getting pickford knocking the ball long every single time from minute one is brutal. Where were our guts and fighting spirit, Gareth?
This
created less xG than some teams in twice as many games, was regularly outplayed by inferior opposition and once again reached the final thanks to a super easy schedule.
His only saving grace was that after some tinkering with the formation, the performances improved in the last few games, but even then he insisted on playing out of form players (especially Foden, Bellingham and Kane) and took far too long to make those changes (and also start Mainoo).
His only saving grace was that after some tinkering with the formation, the performances improved in the last few games, but even then he insisted on playing out of form players (especially Foden, Bellingham and Kane) and took far too long to make those changes (and also start Mainoo).
I think the difference with Southgate is the negative play where he’s done it so many times and it’s failed. He doesn’t learn despite the team playing better when they’re front foot.
A lot of England managers haven’t had the squads Southgate have had, they’ve attacked and yes they’ve lost, but not from sitting back and been very unlucky to be honest… 86, 90, 96 for example.
Going toe to toe with top teams and losing is tough but its miles better than the alternative… ShitgateBall.
He's a decent manager but his style of play doesn't suit a squad like England's. You see how dangerous they are every time England go behind and they ditch the tactics and just go all out attack.
He's one of the jammiest managers I've ever known btw. The way draws just open up for him in tournaments is mental and even with that he almost fecked it this time round.
He's one of the jammiest managers I've ever known btw. The way draws just open up for him in tournaments is mental and even with that he almost fecked it this time round.
Lest anyone else should retrospectively praise Southgate for making two finals and a WC semi-final because no one else has....... this is the run of games he's enjoyed with a superior set of players at his disposal.
2018
Tunisia
Panama
Belgium
Colombia
Sweden
Croatia (Out)
2020
Croatia
Scotland
Czechia
Germany
Ukraine
Denmark
Italy (Out)
2022
Iran
USA
Wales
Senegal
France (Out)
2024
Serbia
Denmark
Slovenia
Slovakia
Switzerland
Netherlands
Spain (Out)
Look at those consecutive tournament run of games in group and knockout!
Don't tell me he's beaten tough teams to get to finals. He hasn't been asked to do anything like what previous managers were expected to do. He's been given a superior squad of players and they've carried his ass based on their qualities alone in spite of him.
2018
Tunisia
Panama
Belgium
Colombia
Sweden
Croatia (Out)
2020
Croatia
Scotland
Czechia
Germany
Ukraine
Denmark
Italy (Out)
2022
Iran
USA
Wales
Senegal
France (Out)
2024
Serbia
Denmark
Slovenia
Slovakia
Switzerland
Netherlands
Spain (Out)
Look at those consecutive tournament run of games in group and knockout!
Don't tell me he's beaten tough teams to get to finals. He hasn't been asked to do anything like what previous managers were expected to do. He's been given a superior squad of players and they've carried his ass based on their qualities alone in spite of him.
Tbf he has had incredible success by most standards as an international manager. Personally I would put it all down to being lucky with the draws but we can't say it's all gone wrong because we haven't won somethingWhat else do you suggest the problem is? There’s been huge upheaval of the academy systems, the individual player quality is higher than it’s ever been, the players can play in possession based teams for their clubs, they’ve been bailing him out constantly with pens, last minute goals, wonder goals. He finally made a few good subs near the end of the tournament, and even then you’re wondering why he bothered starting a half fit Kane.
It’s not always been the manager’s fault in those years, but this team should be miles better. Remember when england had the likes of David batty and Heskey playing
Someone who’s managed 150 games, and relegated a team in that time, should never be in the position he’s in. He’s actually done pretty well given how much I rate him as a manager.
Another missed opportunity... not being brave/proactive enough.
You'd have thought he'd have learnt by now.
You'd have thought he'd have learnt by now.
Southgate is a bottom of the table manager. Not a manager that should ever be in charge of teams expected to win and with a level of player that can score goals and be creative. He'd be good for playing dour football and eeking out points for mediocre teams because everything he does is think defensive first and proactive second, more worried about the opposition than coaching attacking patterns. He might get found out in club football for his nepotism though, that might swing over a short tournament but may be a bad look week in week out where managing a squad is crucial.
Unfortunately we've wasted years with Southgate in the misguided belief that because he got good tournament results he might come good despite the insane luck he got. He was always a loser, that's the brutal reality of Southgate as a player and manager.
All that said, I will credit him for a rebuild he did PR wise on this England squad, at least prior to this tournament where his crybaby tactics have not worked at all and have actually made his squad easy to dislike. But before this he picked up the pieces from some atrocious managerial performances and at least in the first tournament created a feel good factor. The only problem is we got married to him and didn't objectively analyse his football. The batten should have been passed on long ago, we should have thanked Gareth for his service and got in a proper coach after that Croatia defeat.
Unfortunately we've wasted years with Southgate in the misguided belief that because he got good tournament results he might come good despite the insane luck he got. He was always a loser, that's the brutal reality of Southgate as a player and manager.
All that said, I will credit him for a rebuild he did PR wise on this England squad, at least prior to this tournament where his crybaby tactics have not worked at all and have actually made his squad easy to dislike. But before this he picked up the pieces from some atrocious managerial performances and at least in the first tournament created a feel good factor. The only problem is we got married to him and didn't objectively analyse his football. The batten should have been passed on long ago, we should have thanked Gareth for his service and got in a proper coach after that Croatia defeat.
I think Southgate has his faults as a manager such as he is a defence first guy and he is more of a man manager than a tactical genius but I do think that there are a few other factors which contribute to the losses than just the manager. I genuinely don’t think that another manager will just come in and make us champions
First of all I think the hype around the English players is far too much because of the league being so big & transfers being big value. Yes it is correct that more England players are technically better now but unfortunately in a lot of crucial areas we still struggle with ball movement & confidence under pressure. Rice for example is a £100 million player and does a great job in terms of winning the ball back but all through the tournament he was terrible with the ball at his feet. All the alternatives we have struggle with the same thing. Now I understand that a better manager can open up things more but believe me there were loads of times today & through out the tournament where when under the pump the players showed zero ability to keep the ball. There were so many times today when in tight areas the players made bozo decisions.
England need a new manager just because it’s gone stale and they need freshness but I think people will see that England will still have the same issues with most managers
First of all I think the hype around the English players is far too much because of the league being so big & transfers being big value. Yes it is correct that more England players are technically better now but unfortunately in a lot of crucial areas we still struggle with ball movement & confidence under pressure. Rice for example is a £100 million player and does a great job in terms of winning the ball back but all through the tournament he was terrible with the ball at his feet. All the alternatives we have struggle with the same thing. Now I understand that a better manager can open up things more but believe me there were loads of times today & through out the tournament where when under the pump the players showed zero ability to keep the ball. There were so many times today when in tight areas the players made bozo decisions.
England need a new manager just because it’s gone stale and they need freshness but I think people will see that England will still have the same issues with most managers
What an overrated coach. His shit tactics and management were helped by having very good players throughout his tenure. I don’t want him anywhere near our club.
Who rates him?
Yes, this context is crucial to assessing his tenure.
Within that I'll give him a bit of credit for beating Germany and Netherlands, even though they were not vintage sides for those nations by any stretch, they still need to be beat.
But that aside there's not much there I wouldn't expect to beat fairly handily, it's the type of team England piss over in qualifying games. The fortune he has had has been absolutely bonkers which is why it feels even more like a complete waste.
England still don't produce enough quality deep lying midfielders who are press resistant, able to pass under pressure and dictate games from deep. Today all England had was Mainoo. Spain had Rodri, Fabian Ruiz, Merino, Zubimendi to call on today. Without even mentioning the injured Pedri.What else do you suggest the problem is? There’s been huge upheaval of the academy systems, the individual player quality is higher than it’s ever been, the players can play in possession based teams for their clubs, they’ve been bailing him out constantly with pens, last minute goals, wonder goals. He finally made a few good subs near the end of the tournament, and even then you’re wondering why he bothered starting a half fit Kane.
It’s not always been the manager’s fault in those years, but this team should be miles better. Remember when england had the likes of David batty and Heskey playing
Someone who’s managed 150 games, and relegated a team in that time, should never be in the position he’s in. He’s actually done pretty well given how much I rate him as a manager.
Precisely this. Sick of hearing all this nonsense about him being England's greatest manager since Alf Ramsey. Most managers preceding him would have done just as well if not better with the same group of players and forgiving run of fixtures. But he wears a waistcoat and is a top bloke I suppose.
Well there’s more to football than just having the best players. You are talking like England didn’t lose to Iceland in 2016 or didn’t fail to make the euros in 2008. During Southgate’s time England have comfortably qualified for every tournament and made at least the quarter final in each ( semi final in 3 out of 4). The other way of looking at it is that he has only lost to some really good teams but has been fine otherwise. His style & tactics can be questioned but questioning his results is just ridiculous
England should have gone all out attack and lost 6-0
He's been bad at this tournament but you're blaming him for the wrong reasons now
He's been bad at this tournament but you're blaming him for the wrong reasons now
The type of manger you only need to look at and listen to and you think…yeah, you’re just never winning a final.
He might be a decent guy but it says something when no fecker would want him in charge at their club. That managerial display tonight was laughably bad.
He might be a decent guy but it says something when no fecker would want him in charge at their club. That managerial display tonight was laughably bad.
It’s crazy really, for example at 1-1 I actually think his mistake was to not bring on an extra midfielder as England were too open while most people think that his mistake was sitting back.
Surely a straw man. We don't want naivety we want a manager that looks at a squad with Palmer, Foden, Saka, Watkins, Toney, Gordon, Trent, Bellingham, the corpse of Harry Kane and thinks about coaching attacking play.
Not this stuff where we lump it forward from goal kicks, pick players based on personal relationships, convince them to drop back at every opportunity (or at least impress such negativity on them that they naturally do so). Refuse to make changes until the game is already getting away from us.
There is something between Gareth Southgate and kamikaze Bielsa style football that is simply being a competent coach that uses attacking players.
Untrue. He's seen 3 of those in elimination games for england, so clearly he knows what one looks like
They ALWAYS do. Acting like they hace Brazil '70 from defence to attack and only coaching holds them back.....I'm willing to bet by the next world cup the same number on here will be claiming they were "far superior to Spain' and just Southgate 'cost England".
As an England fan we should remind ourselves how poor we have been in tournaments in the years pre-Southgate and that we would have bitten hands off if offered the outcomes he has achieved when he took the job on the back of the Iceland debacle in 2016.
To me it is obvious he has taken us as far as he can. I was personally frustrated that the FA seemingly left it up to him whether he continued after the World Cup in Qatar. It was said there would be deliberations to reflect on our exit to France but it seemed like as soon as Southgate decided he wanted to carry on then he was granted the chance to do so. I think we needed more of an inquest and to challenge Southgate more deeply on what would be required to go to the next level and to win a tournament. But alas we have just plodded on.
I do think there has been some growth from him in this tournament. I think his squad selection and plan A was not right and he’s had to try and fix that as we’ve gone through which has not been ideal. He’s been a bit bolder on making changes game by game and braver with his substitutions in the later rounds. However, I think the draw was kind to us and the failure of plan A easily could have been punished with an early exit and almost was but for Bellingham’s goal.
I do think he has made some really positive improvements during his time in the role. Things that we probably now take for granted such as:
Southgate should rightly go down as an England legend whose story arc began in ‘96 as a player and almost ended with incredible redemption as a manager.
But we have to move on now and try to capitalise on what he has built in addition to the exciting crop of players we now have at our disposal.
To me it is obvious he has taken us as far as he can. I was personally frustrated that the FA seemingly left it up to him whether he continued after the World Cup in Qatar. It was said there would be deliberations to reflect on our exit to France but it seemed like as soon as Southgate decided he wanted to carry on then he was granted the chance to do so. I think we needed more of an inquest and to challenge Southgate more deeply on what would be required to go to the next level and to win a tournament. But alas we have just plodded on.
I do think there has been some growth from him in this tournament. I think his squad selection and plan A was not right and he’s had to try and fix that as we’ve gone through which has not been ideal. He’s been a bit bolder on making changes game by game and braver with his substitutions in the later rounds. However, I think the draw was kind to us and the failure of plan A easily could have been punished with an early exit and almost was but for Bellingham’s goal.
I do think he has made some really positive improvements during his time in the role. Things that we probably now take for granted such as:
- our defensive organisation and consistency. Tough to beat in knockout football
- Culture and mentality
- Squad harmony
- Strong on the basics like set pieces
- Not melting if it goes to penalties, winning 3 shootouts
- Making our superiority count with big scores against smaller nations like Panama, Iran in tournaments
- Reconnecting with the fans and media, making us likeable again
- Prioritising team balance and shape over big name players - called time on Rooney and others
Southgate should rightly go down as an England legend whose story arc began in ‘96 as a player and almost ended with incredible redemption as a manager.
But we have to move on now and try to capitalise on what he has built in addition to the exciting crop of players we now have at our disposal.
Supported by what midfield? Spain your opponents in the final had Fabian Ruiz, Rodri, Zubimendi, Pedri and Merino to call on in deep midfield to dictate play in their tournament squad. In comparison you had a teenage Mainoo and a barely 20 Wharton.
Wasting this England squad
It's not just about tonight, it's about a whole tournament of substandard performance, preceded by a buildup of substandard, inept performance.
For every Rodri we faced in midfield we faced 3 or 4 far worse players where your argument falls flat on its face because the approach was no different. It was the same utter rubbish.
Why does England not play pressing? Surely you could press your opponents even if you don't do pressing as means of dominating the ball, but rather for quick brakes. They feared to press even the mighty Slovakia (no offence meant to Slovakia who played great tournament, but difference in quality is massive).
Even if you are incapable of reaching Spain levels of possession and ball control, surely you can press and make game go into direction you want, or at least attempt to?
Even if you are incapable of reaching Spain levels of possession and ball control, surely you can press and make game go into direction you want, or at least attempt to?
Fair. Unfortunately you lack balance across those players. Start Alexander-Arnold and you lose Walker, and your defence risks falling apart. Start Walker and the defence is good, but you lack ball progressing players from deep, so the attack is going to be slow. Etc...
This england generation is really talented, but most of that talent isn't complementary. It can, and should be - and has been, under Southgate at previous tournaments - a great team. It's also not one that would find it easy to play the kind of football Spain plays, for example. This might change over the next few years.
Southgate has failed massively here though, and given this was his 4th tournament, the obvious conclusion is that it would be best to change
I don't think you make a bad point but also, I disagree with this. Might because I'm Italian and we won a World Cup thanks to the manager giving priority to a personal relationship over form
Yes this is fair. Don't think it's that big a deal though
Agreed. But that starts on the training ground, not within games. England tried to push after the goal, ineffectively, then Spain recovered from the shock, realized england had exactly ONE actual midfielder on the pitch, their press was a mess, and they started playing again and beat them back into their box. And england had to take it, because they didn't have the capability to stop them. The goal, the goal is England trying not to let Spain just pin them back, and doing a shit job of it
They'll probably replace him with Carsley and tbh it's not a bad choice.