Personally we'll agree to disagree. I don't think he reacts very well during games. The subs have been made but frequently take too long. I agree he is just too negative overall which has held the side back. Someone on another thread nailed it by saying the quality of the team has overtaken the quality of him, When he started in the role, the cautious approach worked with the players he had however now there are better players and he doesn't know how to get the best out of them.
Gareth Southgate
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Jamie (@Vault Dweller) get the depressing job of reviewing United's 3-0 loss at Old Trafford to Liverpool. They discuss what went wrong, Casemiro's day to forget, and the pressure now on Erik Ten Hag. They also take some time to give McTominay a proper farewell, and give their overall thoughts on the Summer Transfer Window.
Personally we'll agree to disagree. I don't think he reacts very well during games. The subs have been made but frequently take too long. I agree he is just too negative overall which has held the side back. Someone on another thread nailed it by saying the quality of the team has overtaken the quality of him, When he started in the role, the cautious approach worked with the players he had however now there are better players and he doesn't know how to get the best out of them.
Have you been watching the same manager? Reacting to changes isn't doing stuff after a goal, it's doing things to prevent the goal once you've noticed things in the match have changed.
The story of the last Euros final was him sitting on his hands watching Italy take control of the game until they inevitably equalised, and then he happily sat through extra-time doing nothing, before giving Sancho and Rashford less than a minute. The Slovakia game this time around was so bad that it almost seemed like he'd have preferred us to go out rather than change anything, before Bellingham saved him with an over-head kick. The Switzerland game was another similar tale, with him watching us be completely ineffective and only responding once we'd actually conceded. The Netherlands game was 1-1 from the 18th minute, but he gave Palmer and Watkins about 10 minutes do something. Last night we equalised, gave Spain a slightly uncomfortable minute or two, then they took back complete control. His response to that was to twiddle his thumbs for 10-15 minutes while he thought about bringing Gallagher and Trippier on to provide some energy at the back, but he waited too long and Spain scored the winner.
This is before we get to him starting Kane in every match, and letting him stink it out for an hour or more before subbing him off, despite knowing he wasn't fully fit, and repeatedly trying to wedge Foden and Bellingham into the side together despite it not once looking like it was going to work.
He used to have a clear plan for how we were going to play, but that's not been remotely the case for this tournament. He picked a squad with no idea of what he wanted them to do, then spent the tournament trying to figure it out, until he was eventually beaten by the first good team we came up against (and even then he was almost bailed out by yet another individual moment).
Started the tournament with the Alexander-Arnold midfield experiment, constantly shuffling Bellingham and Foden around to try and find a solution to play them both together, and about the only thing he appeared to instruct us to do was knock it long (with a team full of players used to playing from the back), except we had no one making runs for the knock-down as he'd left all of those players on the bench or at home.
He pretty much said he doesn't know what to do with the midfield without Kalvin Phillips available, and he quite clearly doesn't have a clue what to do in attack without Kane on top form (and arguably without players like Rashford and Sterling).
Why pick Gordon, Bowen, Wharton when it was obvious he had no intention of using them? Even worse when we were crying out for width and pace down the left, or a no.6 to rotate/keep the ball.
Rashford, Grealish and Maddison have had poor seasons but still better options off the bench... Wonder if part of it was that the former three would be just happy to be there and not kick up a fuss being subs/ or there'd be more cries for them to be playing, should the first choice options be underperforming (as what happened).
Rashford, Grealish and Maddison have had poor seasons but still better options off the bench... Wonder if part of it was that the former three would be just happy to be there and not kick up a fuss being subs/ or there'd be more cries for them to be playing, should the first choice options be underperforming (as what happened).
Southgate, with the tactical nous that got Middlesbrough relegated 15yrs+ ago, has constantly featured in semis and finals of the biggest international tournaments.
Even this version of Jose is Rinus Michels compared to Southgate.
What? England came back into the match, I was expecting Spain to win without that part.
Again with rankings and past history nonsense. As mentioned before Belgium are ranked 3rd in the world and they are absolutely fecking shite. This German side is definity superior to the one England beat in 2021 and I've not seen anyone say they don't really count as a top side. I don't what you're trying to say either, aside from a not eonthinly veiled weak assed attempt at an attack on the England team and fans. You seem very bitter about them both for some reason.
Incredible really that anybody could think that Germany was better than the current one.
Why not. He did WAY better than this at 3 tournaments. He absolutely could have done better than this. Should have done better than this
Qatar was by far the best England side I've seen in my life. A marked improvement of an already great side at Euro 2021. Certainly helped by the fact it took place in November, with players at peak fitness instead of the spent husks of summer tournaments, but they were clearly better in just about every way. They went out to the combo of a Tchouameni-35-yards-worldie and getting Kane'd
Whoah. Spot on
You know, I don't even disagree with your point(but the other poster is also not wrong), but it sure would help if you actually paid attention to the games you talk about
England didn't defend in a low block yesterday. Arguably it's why they lost the game. Had they played in a low block they might have been able to take it to penalties and winI mean this is provably wrong. The part where being cautious is the problem. Lots of winning managers are. Hell, even Spain had a tendency to just bunker down and protect the result at these euros after going ahead
Southgate did good in 3 tournaments, where england were unlucky. This one was an abomination, but I'm not sure it had anything to do with him being cautious and all to do with him having no clue
Qatar was by far the best England side I've seen in my life. A marked improvement of an already great side at Euro 2021. Certainly helped by the fact it took place in November, with players at peak fitness instead of the spent husks of summer tournaments, but they were clearly better in just about every way. They went out to the combo of a Tchouameni-35-yards-worldie and getting Kane'd
Whoah. Spot on
You know, I don't even disagree with your point(but the other poster is also not wrong), but it sure would help if you actually paid attention to the games you talk about
I mean this is provably wrong. The part where being cautious is the problem. Lots of winning managers are. Hell, even Spain had a tendency to just bunker down and protect the result at these euros after going ahead
Southgate did good in 3 tournaments, where england were unlucky. This one was an abomination, but I'm not sure it had anything to do with him being cautious and all to do with him having no clue
I mean in the first half they were playing a low block, even the pundits and commentators said so. In the second half, it got a little bit more open.
Let's try Potter. England need to play attacking football with the talents at their disposal.
England will be one of the favourite again at WC. With the right coach and style of play I can see England doing better than Euro.
They play so badly in the final and Spain barely beat them.
England will be one of the favourite again at WC. With the right coach and style of play I can see England doing better than Euro.
They play so badly in the final and Spain barely beat them.
Way better than getting to a final and losing 2-1 to a Spain side that just eliminated every top team in the competition?
Rankings have been brought up as a ball-park for the quality of opposition England have faced (which is about all they're good for), but it's taken by some as if they're some absolute measure of quality (or that they're being used that way when they aren't).
The reality is that under Southgate, England have reached two Euros finals, a World Cup semi-final, and a World Cup quarter-final, and the only top 10 ranked teams they've beaten have been an okay Denmark and a lackluster Netherlands. The only other scalp of note is the 12th ranked Germany mentioned in your quote, but as we all know, they weren't actually that good.
In the first half england played a rather fluid defensive scheme, which yes included a low block at times(and high press at others). They did it really well, too, kept Spain at arm's lenght easily. Then they come out in the second half in a midblock and proceed to get torn apart...
Yes. At the last Euros they made the final too, lost on penalties, and that team conceded 2 goals all tournament, both off set pieces, conceded two real chances to their opponents across 7 games - the second being Italy's goal, off a corner kick - breezed past the group, beat Germany, dismantled Ukraine and battered a very good Denmark for 120 minutes. Then played a near flawless first half against Italy in the final, and even with a few mistakes ultimately still largely kept Italy at bay. Game ended on penalties afterall. In Qatar they smashed teams left and right and got football'd by France after an even game
This time around they got outplayed by Slovakia and Switzerland, had all of 2 decent halves of football in 7 games. The irony is they once again got most things right and played well in the first half, only to fall apart in the second. Just like Croatia and Italy...
Okay fair enough, I was referring to league titles, should have made that clearer.
I also forgot about Steve McLaren with FC Twente!!
I guess my point is prolific trophy laden success is a rarity amongst English managers.
FA cup wise, Redknapp won it last in circa 2008
I think he's going to quit. Please, just leave. You'll get a nice cushy FA job.
Has he done the old "I might quit, pressure!!!" thing yet?
Before signing another contract of course.
Before signing another contract of course.
I’m going to hold all of you asking him to step down personally accountable if he ends up at us in November.
Move him upstairs to become the FA’s head of media & coms strategist or something. Problem solved.
Give the guy a lifetime contract. Just keep him away from Old Trafford.
Yet he has Pickford booting it long every time he touches it.
What a load of bollocksIts fact not "PR". France suffered the SELF sane issues all tournament long. The issue I always have with fans of your ilk is you conflate internstional ball with club ball. Yet it hinges heavily on the personnel you have available. On top of the fact you consistently pretend your national team is packed with the best footballers known to man in all departments thus EVERY coach is automatically "rubbish" for not playing City football consistently with them. I fully expect the point to go over your head and you to reply with the joke narrative of "defending Gareth"
I don't matter how often you repeat this joke mantra in a mirror. It doesn't matter and will NEVER work that way. But because as per usual y'all pretend every nation you face is "rubbish in all departments and all their styles of plan.
Y'all think you are entitled to boss any side you come across inspite of inherent weaknesses you already have as a team.
Thats why you always come as "a surprise" to y'all why can't be feee free flowing vs park the bus merchants who scored you first (Iceland)for example. Because you never pay any attention to what the opponents bring to the table. Every match vs the big boys your attitude is "lads is tottenham". That is why even before the match nation's your football covering outlet's had combined XIs with players like Kane in the combined XI ahead of their Spanish counterparts from over the length of the tournament.
Sir Geoff Hurst: ‘It’s been fantastic under Southgate. I’d like him to stay’
https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...nd-euro-2024-sir-geoff-hurst-gareth-southgate
They were beaten by a fantastic Spanish team in the last five minutes that won all seven games, something that has never been done before.
https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...nd-euro-2024-sir-geoff-hurst-gareth-southgate
They were beaten by a fantastic Spanish team in the last five minutes that won all seven games, something that has never been done before.
Average rankings of teams European runners up have beat
England - E24 23.6
France - WC22 12.6
England - E20 - 15.3
Croatia - W18 - 21
France E16 - 15.6
So yeah, 23.6 average is the highest. But our 2020 runner up pathway was harder than France in 2016 or Croatia in 2018. This narrative that England have had exceptionally easy routes to finals, doesn't stand up
England - E24 23.6
France - WC22 12.6
England - E20 - 15.3
Croatia - W18 - 21
France E16 - 15.6
So yeah, 23.6 average is the highest. But our 2020 runner up pathway was harder than France in 2016 or Croatia in 2018. This narrative that England have had exceptionally easy routes to finals, doesn't stand up
You’re using current rankings rather than rankings at the time aren’t you? Current rankings are effected by the results at Euro 21 plus World Cup and Euro Qualifiers since.
England’s average ranking for the 6 game run to the final in 2021 was 24 which is the worst on your list.
Group Stage Matches
- Croatia
- Scotland
- Czech Republic
Knockout Stage Matches
- Round of 16: Germany
- Quarter-finals: Ukraine
- Semi-finals: Denmark
- Croatia: 14
- Scotland: 44
- Czech Republic: 40
- Germany: 12
- Ukraine: 24
- Denmark: 10
14 + 44 + 40 + 12 + 24 + 10 = 144
144 / 6 = 24
I can’t be bothered to do the rest but I’d suspect you got them wrong too seeing as your methods are flawed.
He was pretty bad really. But then you have to ask where are the defensive midfielders who can take care of the ball. Where are the left backs, where are the wingers.
If your dont have them and are left playing park the bus, play on the counter, take the few chances that come your way and be hard to beat then im not sure he made many mistakes.
Whoever replaces him wont find it easy unless a lot of unknowns like wharton are unusually good for their age and experience. Otherwise they're taking a lot of stick for dropping Rice, a stopgap in the role really, for a kid learning the game.
If your dont have them and are left playing park the bus, play on the counter, take the few chances that come your way and be hard to beat then im not sure he made many mistakes.
Whoever replaces him wont find it easy unless a lot of unknowns like wharton are unusually good for their age and experience. Otherwise they're taking a lot of stick for dropping Rice, a stopgap in the role really, for a kid learning the game.
The whole park the bus thing without pace up front was the most bizarre, almost criminal tactic. Especially against Spain. We allowed them to play such a high line and step into our half because our only pace was Saka who was at wing back so had to play from deep too. Kane was dropping next to Rice at times and we were lumping the ball up to Bellingham who was heading it over to nobody or down to a sea of red shirts. Spain couldn’t have been any more comfortable.
We gifted them an hour head start in the match playing like this. Any competent manager would have spotted it straight away and made 2 if not 3 substitutions bringing on pace merchants to stretch Spain wide and deep and give our midfield and defence a chance to step up.
He should have dropped Kane for Watkins with the benefit of hindsight. But how much difference would that one player make for stretching a team. Gordon is the only pace merchant in the squad and hes a rookie who took 6 months to settle at newcastle. I can criticise the squad selection (it was rubbish) but its hard to blame him for not turning to Rashford. I mean it probably feeds back into my argument that the squad has a few holes and the manager isn't the only problem
Foden, Bellingham and Kane wont stretch teams but they'll still get chances around the box and from set pieces. They're a decent bet to just pull a goal out of nothing. I mean you look at set pieces and you can start seeing a good reason to shoehorn Trippier in there.
If im going to play shit on a stick football i might do the same things as Southgate. I'm starting to convince myself that he isn't completely shit and hopeless.
He would make a great politician. Can see which way the wind blows and change with it.
Yeah that's what's completely insane about it. We have possession at kickoff so what do we do? Give it to Pickford to boot it long in the hope we win it again... In the centre... Where we had the ball to begin with....
Not really. Engand were a mediocre side, Spain were a great side, that's all there was to it. It's not like England really troubled Spain at any point in the second half, they scored a goal from an individual mistake, a great shot and some luck, and then Spain took a couple minutes to shake off the shock and went back to shredding the tired, mediocre team they'd been tearing apart the entire second half. England lost this game in June, if not March even. For this game, it was either shithouse it and luck or play for penalties. England were never going to play well enough to beat Spain on merit at this point
And yes, this was Southgate's fault
By all means enjoy your win, but that’s arrogance and hyperbole. It’s a very good Spain side, you were the best team in the tournament and deserved the trophy, there is absolutely no disputing that. You’re talking about that side as if it’s the Spain of 08-12 or Brazil of 58-62 or West Germany 70-76 and it’s got a lot to prove before it reaches that sort of status.
Despite Southgate giving you an hours head start with awful selection and tactics, you were still a goal line clearance away from extra time, conceding two goals.
Southgate set up with a deep back line, his striker playing deep and no pace to provide an outlet. Every single long ball was either to your defenders or to Kane or Bellingham who had nobody running off them. It was tactical suicide and couldn’t have given you a more comfortable match, as soon as we introduced pace the game was far more even but as usual with Southgate it was far too late for that.
The England squad has multiple Champions League winners, players that have learned their trade under Guardiola, Klopp, Ancelloti and are well versed in playing in possession systems against high press, playing a high pressing game deep in the opponents half, it’s what they do week in week out. If they were given the keys to take the game to you in a modern progressive system they have every ability to outplay you.
Unfortunately I’ll be surprised if the FA ever have the cajones to hire a manager that is capable of installing a system that plays to these strengths.
Typically bland response from the same clique. Y'all are like the French Bourbons. Your learn nothing. Coach in Coach out. Player Generation in generation out
I'm sorry, did you actually watch the game? England didn't set up with a deep back line at all - hell, just watch Spain's goals - and the game was never even in the second half. England scored against the run of play, with their 3rd shot of the half, 5 minutes after Lamine Yamal had a big chance to kill the game off and 5 before he had another. england's first half was very good defensively while offering very little in attack, sure, but what makes you think England, this England, even could attack Spain? Did you watch them play? Sure, maybe if you bench Kane, Foden and Bellingham and throw in Gordon, Watkins and Palmer - in their first start at the tournament, in the final - you might have been able to do something different. Maybe. You're still throwing a make shift team with very little experience at this level and playing together and with this team and for this manager, against the best team in Europe. You are so unlikely to win that
Bolded is point I was making when I said England lost the game in June. What you say England could/should have done is something they should have been working on, and know how to do, before the Euros began. Not something they can conjure up in 4 days for the final against a team like Spain (and no, they're not some all time great side, but they are very much a great side still). Not that it couldn't have given england a worse chance to try, I just disagree that it would have made much difference. It was simply too late
I never said England should play like Spain. Perhaps you confused my using Spain as an example of a team whose manager sets up the team well to get the best out of the players he has, as me saying that England should copy Spain. Not what I was saying.
On the other stuff, it's clear you're unwilling to change your mind no matter how wrong you are. Seems like you view it as a verbal contest. Pointless to continue.
Only just seen this post because I'm thinking about Southgates next job for some reason and wondering which bottom half side will take him on (probably Everton), and completely agree with you 100%. The time to play Palmer, Watkins and Gordon was in the pre tournament friendlies.
I think England COULD -win- against Spain but they'd never, ever -outplay- them with Southgate as manager. He wouldn't even set out to do that - we saw as much in the final with the endless shuttling back to Pickford.
But I think maybe now Southgate has the nous and gravitas to at least do a similar job to Moyes at club level.
He could be a good shout for Everton when his cautious tactics - but then again Everton don't have world-class attacking options to bail them out against the run of play, like what happened in almost every tournament knockout game for England.