Well, hopefully this defeat has quashed any idea from INEOS of hiring him as United manager.
Gareth Southgate
- Thread starter keithsingleton
- Start date
Yep spot on. He's an abysmal manager who's been very lucky.
It's not like Spain have the best set of individual players. They have the system and the courage to play good football. Spain's manager with English players at his disposal would have done a similar job.
My statement wasn't just about tonight either. Look again at the personnel a Spain had to call on in deep midfield all tournament long. Look at yours. There is a clear reason why they consistently played they way they did and you played closer to what France produced.
Bullshit. Consistent attacking football rises and falls on the personel you have available to dictate play from deep midfield. England's options have been Rice (a box to box ball winner), a teenager in Mainoo and a 20/year old in Wharton, both with no senior tournament experience and an on going experiment with Trent Alexander Arnold. The notion that you face "3 or 4" worse players vs the teams you faced in this tournament is pure delusions of grandeur. Even worse is to repeatedly think it was merely "approach" that was to blame.
This is why losing to Italy in the last Euro finals also came to many of y'all as a big surprise. You always count your team's superiority in the positions it matters the least as reasons you should best opponents swashbuckling style.
The fact that we start looking really threatening and create chances freely every time we go behind says it all. Then we score and like a light switch, go back to sitting deep until the other team scores again.
Southgate said it himself - "attritional football wins tournaments". Well what's he won? Time to go.
Southgate said it himself - "attritional football wins tournaments". Well what's he won? Time to go.
Do we think Spain had no weaknesses in their squad? You're picking out flaws in our players which are true but it's no different for them or anyone else in the tournament. They have susceptible individuals too, the difference is the coach does coaching according to the players qualities which is based around a coordinated press (which there's no reason we can't do if we stop picking Kane so entirely the managers fault), controlled possession and shifting it out wide. Well we have plenty of trumps too we just don't have a system to use them and we don't pick a balanced side. The managers fault.
We spend our time pontificating about our players weaknesses and setting up to restrict. Can we seriously say the manager is using a system, tactics, man management style extracting the maximum? The results say he is but the eye test against teams like Serbia and Slovakia says something else, in those games we cannot even use the argument that the opposition are better or that we have more weaknesses, it simply doesn't work.
Also we actively setup to make our weaknesses worse. We've got Harry Kane stumbling into central midfield occupied by Foden and Bellingham all doing the exact same thing. So instead of realising we have forward players that love the ball to feet but need space as they don't run behind we play a clogger up front that earns them no space. Herein lies the difference, a team with a clear plan in Spain versus a manager that just throws his favourite men on the pitch and hopes.
You mention the training ground but how many sessions does Gareth Southgate need to start making sense in terms of performance levels? He must be one of the most experienced tournament managers out there, if he doesn't have a clue how to coach attack by now when will he?
I guess picking the odd player based on a gut feeling or relationship may be okay, yes. I was surprised he didn't pick Maguire or Rashford. But not when it leads to inflexibility and a refusal to see past the end of ones nose, Harry Kane had vastly more game time than was merited for a fella playing like an 85 year old. He wasn't the only one.
Another FA yes man.
You'd be a good PR man for Gareth, so he can't play decent football because of deep lying playmakers, forget the fact he's playing a pensioner which makes it impossible to be proactive and forget the numerous players he has at his disposal which any club in the world would be happy to take. It's simply not possible to play some football..okay.
England have the players to be playing better than this against Serbia, Slovakia and Switzerland. And Iceland. That is the bottom line. You can try and make it more complicated all you want about deep lying playmakers and all that guff but it is no more than being a Southgate apologetic, in other words..total and utter nonsensical bollocks out of the we miss Kalvin Phillips playbook
It's fecking football, press as a team, win the ball, pass it to the numerous good players up front. It doesn't take miracle workers in a midfield to score some goals against Slovakia. Maybe it comes up short against Spain or Italy, no issue with that but what we're fed up of is utter shit being passed off as good and excuse making which is what has been happening all tournament from Southgate and looks set to continue.
I don't think Southgate is great, but it's a very tricky situation for English FA - his achievements are quite obvious, but his flaws are obvious too. Getting two Euros finals and WC semi is surely very good, considering England was unable to reach such stages for many years, but what's good of it if the team struggles to beat Slovakia and Switzerland with he best team on the paper, yet they always win against those weaker teams and reach the final, which feels like a coin toss at many times. Super hard decision
There's an interesting argument to make about defensive football vs attacking football (or the 'best' team in the tournament winning). People will defend Deschamps and Southgate but does the end really justify the means? Obviously France can point to a world cup win in 2018 and you have to acknowledge International football is a different beast but being defensive is not always the best way. Looking at the last ten years, the winners in the Euros and World cup have been:
2014- Germany
2016- Portugal
2018- France
2021- Italy- they get a lot of criticism but i mainly remember them playing some very good football in the early rounds and were the better team against England.
2022- Argentina
2024- Spain
I would guess the majority of the winners in the last ten years have been the best team of the tournament from a footballing sense- Maybe i'm remembering wrong though and Portugal is certainly the odd one out I admit
You've literally done that twice, against Slovakia and the Netherlands, and you created 4 chances in total - a throw-in into the box, a corner kick second ball into the box, a stupid penalty, and a good through ball in open play
"Create chances freely"
Im an Aussie so I dont mind who the manager for England is, but I just find it crazy to think that the FA can watch all these games and still convince themselves that Southgate is a competent manager.
The way I saw it was Spain are a very technical team but perhaps lack some athleticism, whereas England thrive in this aspect when you view their squad and you see the likes of Bellingham, Walker, Rice, Saka, Watkins, Guehi, Gordon.
If he was intent on playing a low block, he should have played with Watkins on the left and Saka on the right. Watkins has experience playing off the left earlier in his career and would've injected the pace they need. You have to absorb pressure and counter. You can't counter with Foden and Kane. But Kane wouldn't get dropped because he is captain, so Foden would have to be the sacrificial lamb.
A small change can alter the course of a game, because suddenly you've added pace, and their centre backs can't just advance as much as they like, you've also removed Foden from coming in so centrally and crowding the space Bellingham and Mainoo prefer to play in.
The way I saw it was Spain are a very technical team but perhaps lack some athleticism, whereas England thrive in this aspect when you view their squad and you see the likes of Bellingham, Walker, Rice, Saka, Watkins, Guehi, Gordon.
If he was intent on playing a low block, he should have played with Watkins on the left and Saka on the right. Watkins has experience playing off the left earlier in his career and would've injected the pace they need. You have to absorb pressure and counter. You can't counter with Foden and Kane. But Kane wouldn't get dropped because he is captain, so Foden would have to be the sacrificial lamb.
A small change can alter the course of a game, because suddenly you've added pace, and their centre backs can't just advance as much as they like, you've also removed Foden from coming in so centrally and crowding the space Bellingham and Mainoo prefer to play in.
Italy played great stuff in 2021 and were by far the best side, deserved winners. Spain gave them the closest match that year.There's an interesting argument to make about defensive football vs attacking football (or the 'best' team in the tournament winning). People will defend Deschamps and Southgate but does the end really justify the means? Obviously France can point to a world cup win in 2018 and you have to acknowledge International football is a different beast but being defensive is not always the best way. Looking at the last ten years, the winners in the Euros and World cup have been:
2014- Germany
2016- Portugal
2018- France
2021- Italy- they get a lot of criticism but i mainly remember them playing some very good football in the early rounds and were the better team against England.
2022- Argentina
2024- Spain
I would guess the majority of the winners in the last ten years have been the best team of the tournament from a footballing sense- Maybe i'm remembering wrong though and Portugal is certainly the odd one out I admit.
Portugal definitely the outlier. Previous 3 tournaments before that, all Spain and same logic. Italy, Greece, Brazil before them. Was too young to really remember 2000 and before tournaments. But in the 12 tournaments between 2002 and 2024, there have been 3 sides who have won it by being grinding things out? So 75% of the time, the best attacking side has won it? Just flawed logic. And Deschamps gets credit, but really, 1 world cup and no euros in this generation of France players is arguably a slight disappointment. They've had a ridiculous squad and have fallen short despite being favourites or having the best squad in 4 of the 5 tournaments.
I should say Argentina were also an exception, though they got better in the latter stages. That was more of a fate dragging Messi and co through. Very good side though.
There's an interesting argument to make about defensive football vs attacking football (or the 'best' team in the tournament winning). People will defend Deschamps and Southgate but does the end really justify the means? Obviously France can point to a world cup win in 2018 and you have to acknowledge International football is a different beast but being defensive is not always the best way. Looking at the last ten years, the winners in the Euros and World cup have been:
2014- Germany
2016- Portugal
2018- France
2021- Italy- they get a lot of criticism but i mainly remember them playing some very good football in the early rounds and were the better team against England.
2022- Argentina
2024- Spain
I would guess the majority of the winners in the last ten years have been the best team of the tournament from a footballing sense- Maybe i'm remembering wrong though and Portugal is certainly the odd one out I admit.
There's an interesting argument to make about defensive football vs attacking football (or the 'best' team in the tournament winning). People will defend Deschamps and Southgate but does the end really justify the means? Obviously France can point to a world cup win in 2018 and you have to acknowledge International football is a different beast but being defensive is not always the best way. Looking at the last ten years, the winners in the Euros and World cup have been:
2014- Germany
2016- Portugal
2018- France
2021- Italy- they get a lot of criticism but i mainly remember them playing some very good football in the early rounds and were the better team against England.
2022- Argentina
2024- Spain
I would guess the majority of the winners in the last ten years have been the best team of the tournament from a footballing sense- Maybe i'm remembering wrong though and Portugal is certainly the odd one out I admit.
It gets even more interesting if you go further back. Spain in 2012, 2010, and especially 2008 were best sides ball-control wise. This side of theirs looks lot like that from 2008, because it had both verticality and classy positional football, unlike 2010 and 2012 who were safety first, but not like the other boring sides, and whoever would open up against them would surely get trounced.
I take that summer of 2008 as a general break towards modern football as we have seen the first instance of Spanish tiki-taka back then, and Guardiola also soon built his Barcelona side in the same manner. German gegenpressing ideas that are other staple of modern football, along with possession, also started gaining traction in that same period.
So basically, since 2008 when football largely started taking its current shape, there were 9 tournaments in which proactive sides or at least sides that attempted to dominate possession won 7 of them.
Only Portugal in 2016 and France in 2018 went a different route. And while France were by no means an interesting side, they never let anyone really dominate them and were proactive enough to punish everyone, which they did.
That leaves Portugal as the only side who managed to win playing extremely pragmatic football. And they relied on luck in almost all that tournament, pretty much like England has relied in this tournament. They got out of their group with three draws, were completely outplayed by Croatia in last 16 and relied on moment of magic in extra time to get through, then got lucky again by knocking Poland out on penalties, got touch of luck yet again to play Wales in semis, and then had the biggest stroke of luck in final with THAT Eder goal, while also surviving French onslaught of the highest order.
If anything, this body of last nine tournaments, proves that extremely negative football doesn't help mask your deficiencies as team, but rather proactive football does that. Spain in 2024, Argentina in 2022 and Italy in 2021 were definitely not individually the strongest teams in the tournament, but had overcome opponents by sticking to proactive football without compromising. You could say the same about Portugal in terms of strength, but as I said, i believe they largely lucked their way to the title, and it was unsustainable for them, they reverted to level lower than they had before that.
Yeah, that's one of the points I was making
Stop thinking in terms of attack or defence. That wasn't the issue. England were a very well coached side, with a clear identity, structure, understanding of their strenghts and weaknesses, and an effective playing style through 3 tournaments under Southgate. This was different. He came into this tournament having no clue whatsoever about his team. The things he'd been working on for the past 18 months, what he'd been coaching his team to do over that span, was exposed and taken apart in the March friendlies. He got to the Euros having no plan beyond presumably giving himself flexibility in terms of options, and just rely on the star players to carry the day basically. Worse, he compounded that by ultimately not really making use of those options, instead insisting on the same 4 guys despite clear indications that it wasn't going to work
This was a terrible managerial job, but it went well beyond wrong tactics or playing style
Maguire was injured no? He couldn't have played. I was surprised about Rashford, too. Very much so. Possibly the worst mistake he made actually
It's important in life to recognise when a relationship has reached its natural conclusion. Hopefully both Southgate and the FA will see that it's time to part ways. He's a football manager who is good at the management side and poor on the football side.. And that should be a deal-breaker for the FA. He might possibly be a suitable manager for a lower ranking team who expect to defend a lot and try to contain the opponents and play for penalties. He is not the type to get the best out of a talented set of progressive players.
This was at least less annoying than the Italy loss, because we were less likely or deserving of winning, so he gets away with it. But at the same time it hasn’t dissuaded the feeling that we will reliably lose whenever we face a proper team.
He’s obviously earned the chance to take us to another tournament, so either we get a good draw again and limp our way into the later rounds before losing, or we finally end up in a difficult group and get shown up. Either way we’ll never really know what our true limit could’ve been, and Gareth will be knighted near the next election and things are looking a bit shit again politically… but at least we’ll always have that play.
He’s obviously earned the chance to take us to another tournament, so either we get a good draw again and limp our way into the later rounds before losing, or we finally end up in a difficult group and get shown up. Either way we’ll never really know what our true limit could’ve been, and Gareth will be knighted near the next election and things are looking a bit shit again politically… but at least we’ll always have that play.
John Stones manages to fill in for the best midfield in the world at City, Declan Rice manages to play for a title contender who play possession football. Would half those Spanish players actually look like good deep lying players in a set up like England's? Probably not. The Slovakian midfielders looked a class above England when they were in possession and counter attacks despite most of their players not being of the same standard. The conservative coaching set up is the first thing to look at and correct before going to individual player qualities.
You've literally done that twice, against Slovakia and the Netherlands, and you created 4 chances in total - a throw-in into the box, a corner kick second ball into the box, a stupid penalty, and a good through ball in open play
"Create chances freely"
You must have a pretty remarkable memory to be able to remember every exact chance England created in each game. My impression and the impression of most other observers, though (and not just from this tournament) is that Southgate's plan is to attack when behind and defend when ahead. It's very clearly the tactic, and it's very clear that England look much more threatening when behind. In the last 4 games the opponent scored first and then we kicked into gear and scored ourselves.
You can try to nit pick till the cows come home and keep saying that players who scored hundreds of goals collectively for their clubs last season aren't technical players and can't play good football, but I think for most people it doesn't pass the smell test. These players should play a lot better, and the reason they don't is clear to see.
With so many talents England has, it's criminal to play so defensive football. It's embarrassing and wasting the talents of this golden generation.
England need a modern coach and style of play. Even Rangnick or Switzerland's coach would be be much better. They play proper modern football and not stone age tactics. There is a reason a coach like Mourinho who was a top manager before being phased out now.
England need a modern coach and style of play. Even Rangnick or Switzerland's coach would be be much better. They play proper modern football and not stone age tactics. There is a reason a coach like Mourinho who was a top manager before being phased out now.
It's time to go.
and get a new contract
Praising Southgate for the 2 finals and SF would be like praising Pep if he finished 2nd or 3rd at City 7 years in a row while playing boring football despite having the best squad in world football
It's time to move on. These talented English players deserve a trophy, but obviously not under Southgate's charge.
He should have gone after the Wembley final. He'd have been given a mid-table - maybe even top half - PL club. Now his stock is lower than had we crashed out at the quarter finals. Every chairman and owner will answer the question 'Is Southgate capable of getting the most out of our players?' the same way.
He'll become a faceless blazer at the FA. Be given some title, such as 'Technical Director of Footballing Development and Strategic Planning', or something.
He'll become a faceless blazer at the FA. Be given some title, such as 'Technical Director of Footballing Development and Strategic Planning', or something.
How often did Pickford get the ball when England had an attacking throw or corner? The players are clearly under instructions to keep the ball at all costs and play the same football every other nation plays
I personally think Southgate will be quite happy about the final. I'm pretty sure whenever I hear him talk about football there's always a "we had (x) possession and we almost got a result at the end" and suffers from that same managers curse of thinking a draw is a "result" to be happy with as long as it serves your aims.
Ferguson quotes like "I always used to say to players at half-time, 'Be patient. The last fifteen minutes throw the kitchen sink at them. It's worth a gamble'. You are going to lose the game anyway. There is nothing better than when you get to that last fifteen minutes and you actually win the game late on. The fans are going out of the gates I gave it a try and it worked.".
I just don't think Southgate is a "throw the kitchen sink at them and we win" sort of guy. He will be fine with second place, and that's why he will never win anything.
I personally think Southgate will be quite happy about the final. I'm pretty sure whenever I hear him talk about football there's always a "we had (x) possession and we almost got a result at the end" and suffers from that same managers curse of thinking a draw is a "result" to be happy with as long as it serves your aims.
Ferguson quotes like "I always used to say to players at half-time, 'Be patient. The last fifteen minutes throw the kitchen sink at them. It's worth a gamble'. You are going to lose the game anyway. There is nothing better than when you get to that last fifteen minutes and you actually win the game late on. The fans are going out of the gates I gave it a try and it worked.".
I just don't think Southgate is a "throw the kitchen sink at them and we win" sort of guy. He will be fine with second place, and that's why he will never win anything.
Italy struggled against Austria, impressive in the Belgium quarters and Spain ran them very close in the semis. Overall worthy winners but if it had gone England's way in the final no one would have complained. They were really impressive in the group stages, though.
On bolded which three sides? My first proper tournament was Euro 96 and in my lifetime I could only think of two sides who have gone all the way by grinding out results and sheer luck: Greece in 2004 and Portugal in 2016.
Incapable of making a team better than the sum of its parts, or even the sum of their parts. Nervous manager at best, cowardly at worst. Pure “vibes” and nothing technical about him at all. He’s repaired the atmosphere around the national team it seems and should be moved up the organisation. Time for a technical coach, who gets them playing progressive football. We also need a strong coach who is willing to pick the best team, not the best players, which is the status quo for over 22 years now.
His insistence on playing Kane fecked everything up with the sitting back tactic, 0 outlet up front and no target in the box from their set pieces, which is what a smash and grab team relies on.
England doesn’t have the quality in possession to play a short game, sure, but what they do have is a lot of physical qualities, a half decent coach who can implement a competent pressing scheme can have these players shooting for fun from the turnovers they can create. This is evident on the few occasions they had to chase a goal and up the tempo, in short 10-15 min burst they can run a team ragged.
England doesn’t have the quality in possession to play a short game, sure, but what they do have is a lot of physical qualities, a half decent coach who can implement a competent pressing scheme can have these players shooting for fun from the turnovers they can create. This is evident on the few occasions they had to chase a goal and up the tempo, in short 10-15 min burst they can run a team ragged.
Echoing this wholeheartedly, though my unpopular opinion is if England had a manager of the Southgate variety during the Sven years with that group of players, going the full distance (or at the very least reaching the final) at one of the tournaments would have been pretty likely.
Harry Kane + Gareth Southgate = a team that refuses to win trophies. Is this what Americans call with 'double whammy'?
Pickford must have finished the tournament with the most touches for us. He was being brought into peroids of play so frequently in times where there was seemingly no strategic benefit to do so; opposition players in their own half, England defender on the ball with a range of outfield options for the pass - and it would go back to Pickford. And again, and again, and again.
It actually became one of the first audible indicators that the fans in the stadium were growing weary at Southgate's nonsense.
It happened too often for it not to be a deliberate tactical instruction. No wonder everyone played with slumped shoulders. All that talent in the field, only to be sent out and told "Give it Pickford to boot it long".
Guy is like a New Labour version of Mike Bassett
He is such a dull manager yet reached abother final. From a United point of view I hope he stays on for many years to come
It pains me when I hear this tripe about him being our best manager since Sir Alf Ramsey. Sadly, because England have had a consistent run of deep tournament runs, that will always be the case. It won't matter about the negative dross, the lack of adaptability and the failures when there really shouldn't have been failures. The reality is, he's brought a great togetherness the squad and the culture around the squad appears to be a lot more harmonious than it has been in decades. But the monumental failure against a poor Italy at Wembley for me is the biggest failure of any England manager. That tournament and that final was on a plate for him and he failed.
Losing to Spain yesterday was to be expected imo, however his tactics yet again were appalling. You cannot invite Spain on for 80 of the 90 minutes with that defence and expect to win. We have some of the best footballers in world football if you believe the media, yet at no point in this tournament did Southgate know how to properly utilise them.
He'd be a great assistant manager in the PL imo in bringing together a group of players and creating a good atmosphere however tactically he simply isn't up to it. Time for change before this group is wasted.
Losing to Spain yesterday was to be expected imo, however his tactics yet again were appalling. You cannot invite Spain on for 80 of the 90 minutes with that defence and expect to win. We have some of the best footballers in world football if you believe the media, yet at no point in this tournament did Southgate know how to properly utilise them.
He'd be a great assistant manager in the PL imo in bringing together a group of players and creating a good atmosphere however tactically he simply isn't up to it. Time for change before this group is wasted.
Feck me, another clueless Southgate defender, it’s never his fault, is it.
Who puts those players on the pitch and instructs them how to play. Carragher speaking bollocks yet again.
He’s so fecking thick he contradicts himself in the statement. We haven’t delivered under Southgate but it’s the players fault
Exactly this.
No chance, we played better quality teams then and didn’t have the easy draws. We would have been knocked out the same.
Shut up, Carragher.