That was an excellent game by Nani, one of his best in a Utd shirt without question, but are we really likening that performance to Bale's hatrick against Inter?
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That was an excellent game by Nani, one of his best in a Utd shirt without question, but are we really likening that performance to Bale's hatrick against Inter?
I've said this before and I'll say it again. As good as his hat-trick was, it turned out to be pretty meaningless in the end. Would he have done that while the game was at 2-0, for example? Probably not.
He destroyed Arsenal in an FA cup game a few years ago. You can't really go off one of games like that. Praise the performance, sure but it's not like it's a regular thing, also you could argue that Inter were guilty of taking Spurs to lightly. I like Bale, he's good, personally though I wouldn't trade him for Nani because I think Nani has more to his game, particularly when on top form. Also going back to your point about the two wingers in the style of Giggs and Konchelskis, whilst I'm a fan of that style I don't think that it's appropriate in the current game. I don't think you can play with two out and out, one footed wingers who always look to go on the outside on a regular basis. With the much more defensive styles present in current games and the large proportion of teams that play 433/451 I think you need wingers who can come inside and mix it up as well as going on the outside.
Valencia has done very well off late and there are times where that style will be very useful and incredibly tough to defend against but I also think in general it's an easier style to stop. Most times when I see Nani have a poor game it's himself personally getting his decisions wrong/bad crosses/shots, as opposed to a Valenica or Bale where once pushed inside find it difficult.
Valencia has done very well off late and there are times where that style will be very useful and incredibly tough to defend against but I also think in general it's an easier style to stop. Most times when I see Nani have a poor game it's himself personally getting his decisions wrong/bad crosses/shots, as opposed to a Valenica or Bale where once pushed inside find it difficult.
Not at all Hectic, i have said repeatedly how i rate Valencia's consistency and quality delivery. I have also said Nani is the best of them all on his day. Unfortunately Nani's best days don't happen very often. A run of a dozen games at a very high standard here and there over a season, in my view is not as beneficial as a regular and mostly reliable supply of quality crosses that a Valencia brings.
However brilliant Nani is, i think many of you are overrating his consistency. I cannot once in 5 years remember anything more than a good half a season, and that has only been in the last 2. A decent start this year in half a dozen games was followed by yet another frustrating season. Players like him are always the same. Unpredictable, brilliant and frustrating in equally measure. Just like Giggs really. I admire skill and unpredictability but unless it is dependable like Ronaldo or Messi it is not always of benefit, and having to rely on these type of unpredictable players is what can be so frustrating when they don't produce.
A player like Valencia will give the team a reliable and dependable service almost every week, and that is often of more benefit to a team's overall effectiveness than a sporadic and unreliable flash of brilliance. Valencia has been here 3 years and in my view has had twice as many games near his best than Nani has managed in 5 seasons. I think when we look at the seasons since we signed Valencia, it is easy to say Valencias contributions have been of more overall benefit to our results than Nani's.
Well yes. I am not slagging them off, only saying i cannot recall one of our wingers single handedly destroying a team of that standard in the CL. If you have comparable examples, i will happily stand corrected. It was meant to contrast what Bale achieved rather than belittle our own wingers.
No more meaningless than Nani's efforts against Bayern, we still lost. But that shouldn't take away from his overall contribution, he played a great game, as did Bale. He scored a hattrick away from home against the CL Champions, up against one of the best defenders from the earlier WC.
What may have happened or why he didn't do it earlier does not take away from what he did imo. Just give him the credit for what he achieved, had it been Nani who had scored a hattrick away at Inter, we would be lauding it as one of his stand out contributions for him in a Utd shirt, i have no doubt.
Fair point, but again it surprises me whenever discussions like this arise how it becomes one or the other, as if we play the same 2 wingers, in the same set up for 60 games in a row. There would be many opportunities for us to try a variety of different combinations within a multitude of systems. Pace, power and reliability of delivery is the main thing you require from any winger. By the way Kanchelskis was renowned for cutting inside and scoring goals.
Your point about Nani having a poor game due more to himself than being stopped by an opponent is true. Same with Giggs really, but that only highlights my point. these players are unreliable because they cannot control what they produce from one game to the next, when its all going well, they are unplayable, when it isn't they are often more of a liability than a benefit.
That is correct. And that Bayern was very close to the Inter team at its peak while the one Bale mauled was no where near.
As far as Giggs not destroying a top team, I am not going to dignify that with a response.
Yeah, I know Nani's efforts turned out to be irrelevant in the end and I wasn't the one who tried to claim otherwise at all.
I'm not saying that he doesn't deserve praise at all, because it was a good performance and he does, however I don't think it can be truly classed as a world class performance because of the fact that it didn't actually mean anything in the end.
The great footballing performances that are remembered are ones when a player actually wins the game or tie for his team. People wouldn't remember Maradona's exploits against England in 1986 if England had managed to win that game.
Bale over Nani haha.
Whoever said that?
Me I said that. Said he would be a better suit in this team. We need a left footer for the left wing plus need cover for left back. Bale and Nani are both wonderful players not saying Nani is not a fantastic player.
Fair point, but again it surprises me whenever discussions like this arise how it becomes one or the other, as if we play the same 2 wingers, in the same set up for 60 games in a row. There would be many opportunities for us to try a variety of different combinations within a multitude of systems. Pace, power and reliability of delivery is the main thing you require from any winger. By the way Kanchelskis was renowned for cutting inside and scoring goals.
Your point about Nani having a poor game due more to himself than being stopped by an opponent is true. Same with Giggs really, but that only highlights my point. these players are unreliable because they cannot control what they produce from one game to the next, when its all going well, they are unplayable, when it isn't they are often more of a liability than a benefit.
Well as I said I don't think you can play that way on a consistent basis, sure maybe you could mix it up but for me you can't play that way in the game most the time. Today was a good example, Nani could go down the outside but his ability to come inside gives a diversity that a player in Valencia's mould just can't match. Also fair point about Kanchelskis but I was more referring to your idea of having two marauding wingers who look to go on the outside often. For example if we have Bale and Valencia I can't see either of them really coming inside often.
They can be unpredictable but they can also be match winners, the sort of player you can keep quiet for the whole game then they produce a moment of magic. Plus personally I think Nani has reached a good level of consistency. I mean last season he got a new record of assists in the league. He only really faded afer his injury, similarly this season. Also they might be unpredictable but as I said they're much harder to contain and I think today was a good example. Because Everton didn't allow us space to stretch the game we couldn't really get Valencia one on one, and as a result he struggled. Nani on the other hand can much easily deal with being doubled up on, or forced inside.
Fair enough, i have speculated similarly so i thought that remark was aimed at me!
I haven't suggested Nani is not better than them all at his best, but we saw today in front of Evra how open we are when he is not protected. It exposed the deficiencies in midfield, which subsequently carried on to the defence.
I'm sure in our team Bale would be more effective. He is more or less a left-sided Valencia with a bit more refinement. I think Nani would be much more suited to a 433 style system where he can express himself a bit more than a 442 winger where you have to be more robust. In one respect I would love to have Bale in the team, Bale & Valencia together is a wonderful thought, but on the other hand I would love for Man Utd to move away from 442 and have more players like Nani in the team.
You are only looking at what Nani provides offensively, he has a defensive role to play too, and it is no surprise to me that Evra was back to his worst today, once Young is not there covering for him. So Nani's ability to cut in side may give us an edge offensively but it did little to protect our weakest defensive link either. Worst defensive performance for ages, comes with the exclusion of a player who does a much more dependable job defensively.
Again as i have just said to Ash, offensively yes, defensively no, no no!
This has been my point with Nani all along, for me he is a wide forward more than a winger, and he just exposes an already weak Evra when he plays on the left.
while we are not playing the 4-3-3 you speak of, Nani is an asset offensively but a liability defensively. considering Nani and Scholes were on the left hand side with Evra. It is hardly surprising that the defence and midfield were all over the shop today, being pulled all over the place to cover the gaping holes left by those 3 players.
Nani is not good enough offensively to cover what we lose defensively in this system. Today certainly supports that notion once again imo.
Do you not think it is also Evra's fault for being tremendously shit lately?
Nani works hard defensively though. He does his job at the very least, he shouldn't have to babysit Evra, and sometimes it could be argued that Young is having to cover for Evra too much. Also Everton are a better team than most we've played recently. I've not seen problems in general with Nani not covering enough over most the season. He and Rafael for example have been a very solid combo before. Evra struggles with players who drift such as Osman, always has. Either way Nani got back and tracked his man as he should.
No, Evra has been shit at defending all season and longer. you can either attempt to remedy that by playing someone who will help him out, or you can compound the problem by playing someone who is as reluctant to defend as he is. That's what happened today.
I am not blaming Nani or Evra, their strengths are elsewhere other than defending, but it is still a problem that has to be addressed. Today is simply a reminder of how bad the problem can be.
Well he doesn't do his defensive job as effectively as Young, which is the whole point. We have not looked that poor defensively since we went out of Europe. While Nani has been out, Valencia and Young have done an excellent job protecting the full backs which means the central 2 do not have to move out of position too often, which means the CB's can do the same.
Nani, Scholes and Evra on our left today. All were poor defensively and left gaps which forced Carrick, Evans and Rio to be forced out of position to cover. This will take it's toll eventually and as the game wore on it was becoming more and more evident we needed to change something. We didn't and we paid the price.
We lost this lead because we could not prevent Everton creating chances when they had the ball. that is defensive frailties not offensive ones, these were exaggerated today by the personnel picked in the system we played.
At 4-2 up, we should have took off a striker and Scholes and gone 4-3-3 to see the game out. Our failure to do so means we now have to beat City at their place knowing we have threw away an 8 point lead because we cannot control midfield, which more importantly means we cannot protect the defence.
Ok but surely that's a weakness in the team rather than Nani's game? More often than not he does his tracking back and I think he's become a reliable winger defensively. Those problems are issues because in the middle we're missing another defensively reliable midfielder to partner Carrick and at fall back we have players who can be defensive liabilities. Again Nani shouldn't have to baby sit Evra, and Young having to do it for me is an issue, because it means he's going to be less productive attackingly, particularly on the counter if he's always so deep.
Ash im not saying Nani does not try to defend, he does, but he isn't very good at it. He ball watches too much as we saw for Fellaini's goal, far too slow to get out and block the cross.
But the point is he is not as good defensively as young, and that would have been more important at times today than whatever extra Nani offered offensively. My point is not to slate Nani, it is to point out that when you don't have a particularly effective defensive midfield, playing players who are less defensively minded than those they replace is only going to make an existing problem worse. In that system we were always going to be suspect defensively and great going forward.
Unfortunately it was the collective defensive problems that cost us 3 points today.
I totally respect your opinion, but wouldn't the management be more liable for that than Nani himself? I mean what if Rafael was asked to play in goal for the rest of the season, would it be his fault when he makes a hash of everything?
Extreme example I know, but where do you draw the line? Everyone associated with Man Utd know that Nani isn't a Valencia/Bale style winger, so I think it's kind of unfair to expect it. I bet if Fergie wanted him to defend more, then we'd see it happening, and Nani offers so much going forward don't really see a problem with the level of his own performance.
Of course, so if you have a weakness you protect it either with the personnel you pick or a change in system top better accommodate the players you want to play. This system and the personnel in it earned us a 4-2 lead, but that system and the personnel within it, never looked capable protecting that lead.
We should have covered the weaknesses once we gained a winning margin the first time at 3-1, never mind the second. Fergie failed to act quickly enough and it cost us dear.
I get what you're saying and it's true in some regards but you have to say that the errors for the goals were in some cases very poor. The first two goals they scored were excellent the last two were stupid and I don't think you blame the system for that but individual players. Third goal was mostly Evans fault and Rafael not getting tight enough, fourth was rafael letting his man go. We let Everton have some good chances, particularly on our left sure but again I think a lot of that was individual mistakes. Maybe Young would have given more cover, but he probably wouldn't have been as effective attackingly as Nani was and given the other probems in the team we may have been exposed anyway.
Either way Nani was an excellent attacking outlet and did what should be expected of him defensively.
I don't expect it, and i wouldn't. What you should do though is attempt to cover it with the formation. Nani should not have still been in a position where he has to defend a lead. It should have been 3 in the middle at 3-1, to make us more solid and take any potential hope of getting back into it away from Everton.
Sticking with what we had gave everton hope and they took advantage of that. I am blaming the formation and the reluctance to change it in a winning position, what happened seemed obvious watching how the game was progressing, yet SAF did nothing to prevent it till it was far too late.
Yeah I agree when we had a two goal margin we should have looked to secure things which we didn't. Evra was poor but it wasn't just him, there were problems on the other flank and through the middle. Young may have helped but there were other problems as well beside the left wing. Anyway we should be able to rely on Evra to be better defensively than he is.
What's going on here, the thread says Gareth Bale, why is everyone talking about Nani?
I amnot arguiong against any of that but individuals make mistakes when they are put under pressure, i am arguing that formation should have been changed for a more solid one once we had the lead.
Nani in front of Evra is never going to be the best defensively and poor defending spreads uncertainty, and as you say many players contributed to our downfall. But for me it was collectively where we failed. I blame the manager for not changing things when we had the advantage, the writing was on the wall every time Everton went forward. We just couldn't stop them and SAF did nothing to address the glaring gaps and poor organisation.
All i am trying to say is that the system we picked and the personnel in it was always going to be suspect defensively, i am not blaming Scholes for not being able to cover half the pitch, but the fact he can't does not help Carrick, as Nani not being as good defensively as young only highlights any weaknesses at LB.
It is down to the manager to cover those deficiencies, not down to the players to fulfill roles they either do not excel at or simply cannot fulfill.
We should but we can't, so surely we have to cover that rather than further expose it is my point.
Fair play I get what you're saying I just think in this case it's too extreme. Evra shouldn't need to be protected so much at home against Everton, that's my point. If it were against a top 4/european team then I could understand but he shouldn't need that level of protection against Everton. Fergie did make some mistakes but I don't think giving Evra extra protection was one of them, not in this case. In the middle he should have brought on Jones quicker, or brought on smalling for rafael to help deal with the aerial threats, but I don't think we should need to sacrifice our attacking output on the left to protect Evra.
we left our midfield too open after going 4-2 up. SAf didn't react even though Everton were dominating midfield. Jones should have come on much earlier.
Ash the point is at that stage we needed to stop Everton's attacking threat way more than maintaining our own. My point about protecting Evra, doesn't just involve Evra. It helps out the midfield too. Nani does get back but not with the same enthusiasm as young, that means the midfield gets more stretched as a result.
We already have Carrick and Scholes who are not the quickest at closing down, any additional space on the flank, only adds to the problem. That formation was great to get us the lead, but once the lead was attained, we should have changed such an offensively minded and defensively ineffective system, for something much better suited to our requirements at that time.
Well, it sounds to me like you really do.
No, yesterday you just saw Evra at his worse.
And what happened on the other flank by the way?
And if that's what you saw yesterday, I suppose we aren't going to agree on much to be fair. Yes, I stand by my comment, you do not seem to give Nani anywhere near his credit of importance to our team.
To be honest, it sounds like you've barely watched Nani over the past two years. Some of those statements are mental though. You've never seen Nani as a left winger? He's not an automatic starter? He's never been a mainstay like Rooney? He's only had a run of 12 games of 'form'? He's not better than having another regular there like a Valencia type player? Players like Nani are all the same, like Giggs, because they have skill and are unpredictable, but they aren't as dependable as Messi or Ronaldo? Christ.
I don't mean to suggest you have anything against him personally, but you do massively underate his effectiveness and importance to the team, IMO of course.
Yeah I agree that once we were two goals up we should have changed things, we should have put 5 in midfield, don't think we had to take of Nani though, who was tracking back, as he was a big threat on the counter.
This is beyond rubbish...I can't believe there are people that still not only believe this, but are willing to express this belief in public.
Last 3 seasons(League stats)
Bale -
Matches - 85
Goals - 3 + 7 + 9 = 19
Assists - 6 + 1 + 9 = 16
Nani -
Matches - 83
Goals - 4 + 9 + 8 = 21
Assists - 8 + 18 + 11 = 37
Nani has played less(only just), but has scored more goals, and more than doubled the assists tally.
Your posts only really work if you haven't seen Nani at all over the past two seasons, then I'd agree with the lot of it.
It usually starts with one person saying 'tbh I prefer x over y' and the residents leap to the defence of y. Common forum phenomenon.
If you discount periods of injury and getting back to fitness, Nani has been consistently as good as any other attacking player for just over 2 years.
Saying he compounds the problem in respect of Evra's bad defending is bizarre. Is only playing with 2 centre backs compounding the problem of a shit keeper? We need to address the source of the problem, not sacrifice one of our best players.
Saying he compounds the problem in respect of Evra's bad defending is bizarre. Is only playing with 2 centre backs compounding the problem of a shit keeper? We need to address the source of the problem, not sacrifice one of our best players.
I have never once said Nani was shit or that he was not an important player, but you know i began by speculating whether or not we would be generally better with Bale on the left, who in effect provides pretty much what Valencia provides on the right.
Obviously i am going to concentrate on why i believe we would be better and that will include why i don't rate Nani that highly on the left wing. You may think it's underrating him, but i think it is wrong to say his delivery from the left has been as good or as consistent as valencia's on the right. It's that simple really, it's not a get Nani out and buy Bale discussion. A hypothetical case blown out of all proportion by people taking every view to it's most extreme interpretation.
So would you expect to see Evra at his worst when he is being covered more effectively or when he isn't. Just look at the room Nani gave the crosser for Fellaini's goal and tell me honestly that was great covering. I am not blaming Nani for it, my point is we know he isn't very competent at it. So it most certainly did not help the teams overall ability to defend.
As i have said for me a left hand side of Nani, scholes and Evra is hardly a recipe for wondrous defending. The more gaps appear on the left the more the rest of the team moves over to cover them. We were stretched way too often, by having a slow midfield 2, and huge gaps on the left. No-one on the right covered themselves in glory admittedly, but the right has defended well generally, so it is difficult to criticise them in particular for an all round poor defensive display.
No i understand his importance but i do not believe he is as consistent as many of you make out. Especially on the left which has been my point all along. On the right he is far better imo, but stating that usually opens me up for criticism regarding Valencia, or various examples of Nani's good games on the left.
I didn't mean i haven't literally sen him, i meant i have never considered him a left winger. He is a wide forward all day long for me. You have to ask the question Hectic why Nani for all his skills, is not considered one of the best players in the world. There are very few more talented than him, he is two footed, great technique, shooting ability and a fantastic dribbler. So why isn't he considered one of the best behind Messi or Ronaldo? Same reason as Giggs wasn't imo, consistency. You also have to ask the question, why, if Nani is so amazing and consistent on the left, did SAF feel the need to go out and buy Young?
I am pleased to hear that, because i haven't. I don't rate Nani as much on the left as i do on the right. His crosses are unreliable most of the time and he doesn't get as many goals from that position as you would expect. For me he should be on the right side of a front 3, where his suspect defending is not as damaging. Putting him in front of Evra is a recipe for disaster imo, yesterday was not Nani's fault, but for me it simply compounded an already obvious problem.
Take the start of the season, where he scored 6 goals and 5 assists was it in the first 4 games, tellingly that was on the right, with Young opn the left. I cannot ever recall such a productive run from him on the left, which is exactly the point i am making.
FFS not someone rolling out the stats as proof of anything. Go back and tell me how many of those assists and goals came from Nani playing on the left hand side, and it may have a modicum of relevance.
Have you forgotten that Nani is playing in a far superior team to Spurs. If you watch Bale you will also have noted how many fantastic deliveries he puts into dangerous areas that are not converted by Spurs shit strikers. His quality of delivery is as good and reliable as anyone's. How many people score off them is down to the players he plays with.
So stats don't tell the true story in the vast majority of instances. If you have to use them to make your case, then your case must be pretty thin.
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