Television Game of Thrones (TV) • The watch has ended

Yeah, I think the whole consequences have actions being taken out was annoying. @BusbyMalone

I still dont get the scene where Jon sees Sam being overwhelmed by wights but deciding to leave him, what that purpose served. It wasnt mentioned again, and its not like Sam died.

@sullydnl we had a whole season without the ending King. I really think more of a deal should have been made about Jon being a targ and the rightful king. We didnt see his families reaction to it just the aftermath.
It wasnt even mentioned when it came up.

We didnt see the direct aftermath of Dany being killed, which for some reason resulted in Jon being put in prison? rather than killed? I mean that woud have at least given us something.
I think filling three seasons worth of stuff would have been easier than most people think, given how quick Yara was rescued, how the long night, basically was one short night, and how they rushed to get to KL and how little time they spent with Dany as mad queen.

The writing was bad, but even some of the stuff didnt match the shows internal logic which had been established and what made it so special. If they worked backwards to tell a story rather than to rush to a finish, we could have easily got the GOAT show rather than a GOAT but terrible finish show.
I think everything to 6 was perfect
 
The seeds of the problems that would gradually become a major issue were there from very early on, was not that much of a surprise how it fell away if the criticisms that were leveled at the earlier seasons had been heeded. The showrunners were generally pretty good at the big set pieces, the wow moments, were not so good(to put it mildly) at the world and character building that tied those moments together.

It should have been so much better, not the last couple of seasons alone but the whole project.
 
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Been re-watching the final season recently because it's a year since it aired and, yep, still enjoy it a year on. Definitely has some dumb moments but I appreciated what the writers tried to say about the true face of war, the devastating effects of power, and the role that they both play in inflicting and prolonging trauma. It's not the most graceful conclusion in the world, and I don't like the last two seasons as much as the first six, but I loved the first six seasons so much so the last 13 episodes had a lot to live up to. What I got was pretty satisfying and, to the writers' credit, incredibly bold. It would have been very easy to have the Night King to be the final boss and to have Jon and Daenerys live happily ever after, but I'm not sure what that would have really said in the grand scheme of things.

I've watched "better" shows in the last twelve months. I fell so hard for Mad Men, which might be the (quote, unquote) best show I've ever watched; I really enjoyed watching The Sopranos through with my dad; Better Call Saul's fifth season is providing more evidence that it's one of the best shows currently on TV; BoJack Horseman's ending was really well-judged and I'm glad that went out on a high. I've watched weaker shows since, too - Lost, which is an occasionally frustrating but hugely fun mystery box drama (just started season 3); Jane the Virgin, which was pretty slight and broadly sketched but still lighthearted and entertaining; Stranger Things, which is really repetitive now but remains easy-going enough to be fun and easily digestible.

But no TV drama will ever have my heart like Game of Thrones. I do miss it. Mad Men came awfully, awfully close to pipping it to the post (seriously, wow, what a show that is - an absolute tour de force in how to slowly, patiently tell an emotionally rewarding and cathartic story), but I realised I'd need to watch it through six times like I did Game of Thrones before I have the same forensic obsession with it. I've long since made my peace with people disliking season 8 because I still got a lot of enjoyment out of it (probably more than most people) and other peoples' opinions don't really affect that. It's a shame some people didn't like it all that much because it's always nice to see other folks enjoying things, but hey, can't win 'em all.
 
Since ive completed tv at this stage im going to re watch it.

I was 21 when it started.

I think its the only tv show ive watched "live".

Still dont think any other show will come close the the fanfare this had.
 
Bobski said:
The seeds of the problems that would gradually become a major issue were there from very early on, was not that much of a surprise how it fell away if the criticisms that were leveled at the earlier seasons had been heeded. The showrunners were generally pretty good at the big set pieces, the wow moments, were not so good(to put it mildly) at the world and character building that tied those moments together.

It should have been so much better, not the last couple of seasons alone but the whole project.
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I agree with this. The first season aside, much of the series just felt like filler at time, leading up to the big shock moments. Then again, it was the shock moments that made the show and built it into such a phenomenon.
 
Zen86 said:
I agree with this. The first season aside, much of the series just felt like filler at time, leading up to the big shock moments. Then again, it was the shock moments that made the show and built it into such a phenomenon.
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The shock moments had been built upto and made sense.
Neds beheading was due to him being captured cos he was a little naive.
Robs downfall was him going back on a promise he made.
Jon Snows death happened due to the watch feeling betrayed by him for getting the wildlings in.
Stannis burnt his daughter, he thought it would help, but the consequences was people leaving him and his army struggling.
Viper getting his eyes crushed was him showboating like a bond villain

Upto season 5 (and s6) the shocking parts had all been built. Even the finale of s6 with everything going up was consequences due to action.

There may have been some things which were a bit hollywood (like Arya escaping stab wounds, last min save of Jon and his army vs Ramsay) but those were pretty small and even a bit accepted.

But then it just felt like actions had no consequences at all.
 
Sylar said:
The shock moments had been built upto and made sense.
Neds beheading was due to him being captured cos he was a little naive.
Robs downfall was him going back on a promise he made.
Jon Snows death happened due to the watch feeling betrayed by him for getting the wildlings in.
Stannis burnt his daughter, he thought it would help, but the consequences was people leaving him and his army struggling.
Viper getting his eyes crushed was him showboating like a bond villain

Upto season 5 (and s6) the shocking parts had all been built. Even the finale of s6 with everything going up was consequences due to action.

There may have been some things which were a bit hollywood (like Arya escaping stab wounds, last min save of Jon and his army vs Ramsay) but those were pretty small and even a bit accepted.

But then it just felt like actions had no consequences at all.
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I’m not disputing the shock moments, moreso that the entire series revolved around them for the most part. They could throw out any old shit for a few episodes and it wouldn’t matter because omg episode 9 is coming!!!!!1
 
Zen86 said:
I’m not disputing the shock moments, moreso that the entire series revolved around them for the most part. They could throw out any old shit for a few episodes and it wouldn’t matter because omg episode 9 is coming!!!!!1
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I get you, though thats very harsh on s4. The episodes around though were quality.
 
arnie_ni said:
Cant remember this, can you remind me how that was confirmed?
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It was heavily implied to be Joffrey, though we never found out for certain.
 
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I think it was littlefinger who ordered it. He wanted it to look like it was the lannisters this framing Tyrion who won it in a card game. Also that scene in S7 with Bran staring at Littlefinger while saying Chaos is a ladder, while holding the blade was probably a big clue.
 
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I may have been remembering the books, it's all kind of a blur at this point.
 
Rains of castamere was just on sky Atlantic

Those last 20 mins
I remember watching it for the first time and just being shocked at what I saw
 
robinamicrowave said:
Been re-watching the final season recently because it's a year since it aired and, yep, still enjoy it a year on. Definitely has some dumb moments but I appreciated what the writers tried to say about the true face of war, the devastating effects of power, and the role that they both play in inflicting and prolonging trauma. It's not the most graceful conclusion in the world, and I don't like the last two seasons as much as the first six, but I loved the first six seasons so much so the last 13 episodes had a lot to live up to. What I got was pretty satisfying and, to the writers' credit, incredibly bold. It would have been very easy to have the Night King to be the final boss and to have Jon and Daenerys live happily ever after, but I'm not sure what that would have really said in the grand scheme of things.
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Didn't like the later seasons but I agree with this. I know that this isn't exactly an original sentiment but I'm perfectly happy with where things ended up, just not with how.


arnie_ni said:
Did we ever get a definitive answer for who tried to kill bran in season 1?
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AaronRedDevil said:
I think it was littlefinger who ordered it. He wanted it to look like it was the lannisters this framing Tyrion who won it in a card game. Also that scene in S7 with Bran staring at Littlefinger while saying Chaos is a ladder, while holding the blade was probably a big clue.
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Fingeredmouse said:
It was openly stated to be Baelish.
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It was Joffrey. Tyrion and Jaime worked it out and GRRM confirmed their suspicion.
 
Cascarino said:
It was Joffrey. Tyrion and Jaime worked it out and GRRM confirmed their suspicion.
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I guess book spoilers don't matter now but from memory, although Tyrion believes that to be so (to impress big Bobby Baratheon?) and believes Joffrey's reaction when confronted confirms it, I'm not sure it's ever stated definitively in the text is it? Although if GRRM says it is so I guess it is so and it's been a while since I read the books.

In the TV show though, surely it is Baelish, at least to the extent that he arranged the assassin?
 
Fingeredmouse said:
I guess book spoilers don't matter now but from memory, although Tyrion believes that to be so (to impress big Bobby Baratheon?) and believes Joffrey's reaction when confronted confirms it, I'm not sure it's ever stated definitively in the text is it? Although if GRRM says it is so I guess it is so and it's been a while since I read the books.

In the TV show though, surely it is Baelish, at least to the extent that he arranged the assassin?
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Actually you're right, in the show it is definitely presented as Baelish being behind the scheme. I could be wrong about the book explanation as well, but I prefer the idea of Joffrey being behind it (though from memory it was a bit of a lackluster reveal) for geographical reasons, and also it seems unlikely to me that he would have engineered the scheme while using his own knife (though LF is hardly subtle or cautious in the book when it comes to using the knife and the events surrounding it anyway).
 
AaronRedDevil said:
I think it was littlefinger who ordered it. He wanted it to look like it was the lannisters this framing Tyrion who won it in a card game. Also that scene in S7 with Bran staring at Littlefinger while saying Chaos is a ladder, while holding the blade was probably a big clue.
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Fingeredmouse said:
I guess book spoilers don't matter now but from memory, although Tyrion believes that to be so (to impress big Bobby Baratheon?) and believes Joffrey's reaction when confronted confirms it, I'm not sure it's ever stated definitively in the text is it? Although if GRRM says it is so I guess it is so and it's been a while since I read the books.

In the TV show though, surely it is Baelish, at least to the extent that he arranged the assassin?
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padr81 said:
Wasn't it Littlefinger and with Tyrions dagger because he wanted to start trouble.
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Cascarino said:
Actually you're right, in the show it is definitely presented as Baelish being behind the scheme. I could be wrong about the book explanation as well, but I prefer the idea of Joffrey being behind it (though from memory it was a bit of a lackluster reveal) for geographical reasons, and also it seems unlikely to me that he would have engineered the scheme while using his own knife (though LF is hardly subtle or cautious in the book when it comes to using the knife and the events surrounding it anyway).
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Do you consider it a plothole that it wasnt clarified in some form or do you like the ambiguity of it all?
 
padr81 said:
Wasn't it Littlefinger and with Tyrions dagger because he wanted to start trouble.
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It's the letter that starts everything in motion right?

The one that Littlefinger convinces crazy lady Lysa to write and send to her sister Catelyn Stark. The one which she states the Lannisters poisoned Jon Arryn. As that provides the Starks with a crumb of proof to begin to suspect the Lannisters.

The assassination attempt on Bran was just another notch on the belt.
 
The problem with the show's final seasons and endings is that it's renders nearly every characters devleopment and the plot pointless.

In the end nothing game came of the great mystery as to who Jon's mother was and that he was Rhaegars son and therefore has the best claim to the throne. He's just sent back to the night's watch.

Tyrion who's main quality is being smart becomes dumber and dumber and a awful hand to the queen and an awful hand to Bran fx by making Bronn master of coin.

Dany's who entire journey to rule has always had the principle of sparing the innocent and while being ruthless to the evil. In the span of one episode she becomes Satan because mysunday died and Jon didn't want to screw his auntie, because it's weird. She could literally screw anyone else she liked like she used to do if she was horny.

Jaime goes on a redemption on arc when he meets up with brianne and he reveals that what he is mocked for, the reason why he's called Kingslayer, is because it was an action that saved the population of an entire city. In his final episode he goes back on that and proclaims he doesn't care about innocent people. And he goes back to Cersei despite her trying to have him murdered.

Varys, the spider, the master of whispers, commits treason in open dayligt.

The real threat to all of humanity, the white walkers are defeated in one episode.

Arya retains her goodness and innocence despite murdering hundreds of people and taking pleasure in her revenge.

They try to depict Sansa as a master player of the game, by having Arya say "She's the smartest person i've ever met". Sansa never really became super smart just because she called in a favour from Littlefinger.

Jon mostly ends up coming off as a freaking idiot in the final seasons.

Brann becomes king because "he has the best story". Despite being omniscience he spends most of the time turning his eyes white and while watching Sansa being raped in the memories of the world.

Cersei more and more just becomes Lex luther and her closest bodyguard is a zombie.

Greyworm justs fecks off when tyrion the prisoner elects a new king and Jon who murdered dany is sent back to the nights watch.
 
RedSky said:
It's the letter that starts everything in motion right?

The one that Littlefinger convinces crazy lady Lysa to write and send to her sister Catelyn Stark. The one which she states the Lannisters poisoned Jon Arryn. As that provides the Starks with a crumb of proof to begin to suspect the Lannisters.

The assassination attempt on Bran was just another notch on the belt.
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Littlefinger claimed it was his dagger that he lost to Tyrion, but it was in fact Joffery's. He said excatly so Catelyn would do something like taking Tyrion captive.
 
Shamana said:
Littlefinger claimed it was his dagger that he lost to Tyrion, but it was in fact Joffery's. He excatly so Catelyn would do something like taking Tyrion captive.
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The problem is that all of this talk is based on what Littlefinger claims right and we know he's a serial liar. The show made it ambigious, we never truly know who owned the dagger. Bran hints that it was someone with great wealth (the scene where he finally meets Arya again). But we never get it confirmed. But riddle me this... how would Littlefinger get hold of such a prized asset in the first place? More importantly, why would he then risk losing it in a bet? That in itself doesn't make sense to me. He's not from a big wealthy house that could wave away such a loss. So either he lied and he never had possession of it in the first place, or he lied and he never lost it in a bet.

I don't really see a motive in Joffrey doing sending an assassin up to kill Bran. It makes no sense to me. The people with motives to kill Bran would be Jaime and Cersei to cover up their sexy time in the tower, along with Littlefinger himself to ramp up the plot he's been so careful to create.
 
Shamana said:
Littlefinger claimed it was his dagger that he lost to Tyrion, but it was in fact Joffery's. He said excatly so Catelyn would do something like taking Tyrion captive.

The problem is that all of this talk is based on what Littlefinger claims right and we know he's a serial liar. The show made it ambigious, we never truly know who owned the dagger. Bran hints that it was someone with great wealth (the scene where he finally meets Arya again). But we never get it confirmed. But riddle me this... how would Littlefinger get hold of such a prized asset in the first place? More importantly, why would he then risk losing it in a bet? That in itself doesn't make sense to me. He's not from a big wealthy house that could wave away such a loss. So either he lied and he never had possession of it in the first place, or he lied and he never lost it in a bet.

I don't really see a motive in Joffrey doing sending an assassin up to kill Bran. It makes no sense to me. The people with motives to kill Bran would be Jaime and Cersei to cover up their sexy time in the tower, along with Littlefinger himself to ramp up the plot he's been so careful to create.
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Littlefinger was easily wealthy enough to lose a valyerian dagger. But the point is, he never owned it. He just told a flat out lie.
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It's confirmed in the books that it was Joffery. He apparently had a spat with Brann when they visited winterfell and wanted to put him out of his misery after his fall. Littlefinger lied about it being his and losing it to Tyrion.

Edit: You're right, going by the tv show, it's most plausible Littlefinger.
 
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Shamana said:
Littlefinger claimed it was his dagger that he lost to Tyrion, but it was in fact Joffery's. He said excatly so Catelyn would do something like taking Tyrion captive.
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I thought it was Robert’s knife and Joffrey stole it to give the catspaw because he thought the murder would please Robert?
 
The last season was shit (except the battle of Winterfell which has some really great moment, though a lot of mediocrity too). However, I still enjoyed years of watching, discussing and thinking about what is gonna happen. So many awesome and epic moments, with the best music in any TV show.

I am probably gonna rewatch it in a year or two (last time I did it was in the summer of 2018). Sure, the destination was meh, but the journey was great.
 
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