Television Game of Thrones (TV) • The watch has ended

kps88 said:
They were literally trapped beneath a collapsing building as the room filled with rubble. By your logic the Hound and Mountain might also still alive. Stannis too.
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... "No one's ever really gone"
 
Verminator said:
Unless you read spoilers (I don't), how do you know Cersei is dead? I never saw her lifeless body, just dust and debris.
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Verminator said:
Without reading spoilers, you can't just assume that though. Speculation may lead you one way, but you are speaking in definites.
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You been reading spoilers there chief?
 
kps88 said:
They were literally trapped beneath a collapsing building as the room filled with rubble. By your logic the Hound and Mountain might also still alive. Stannis too.
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This is a show where people have been brought back to life, jumped off towers into snow with no Ill effects, stabbed in the chest twice and got up and walked, been beaten up and pushed off a mountain and survived.
Yay for logic !!

I guess she is pointless without her protector, so I don't see why she'd come back, but the fact of the matter is, you don't see them dead.
Subvert your...........logic.
 
Verminator said:
Without reading spoilers, you can't just assume that though. Speculation may lead you one way, but you are speaking in definites.
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And you know what they say, only the Sith deal in absolutes.
 
Thinking back on it, Dany's descent into being a mad queen does somewhat make sense going by past actions, but they just rushed it so very badly. She basically went from being in grief to not eating to burning Varys alive to wiping out an entire city of women and kids in the space of like four scenes. A character we've followed for almost a decade and have generally been supposed to root for above all others. It's such diabolical writing.
 
iammemphis said:
Went from liking Dany to thinking she is a right fecking cnut. Anyhow, my main bone of contention was how fecking easy it was to destroy the entire iron fleet in a matter of minutes when a few days before it literally battered the dragons to death under a siege of flying spears, yet this time the ships just sat there and literally fired two, maybe three of them. What happened to tons of them raining down?

Apart from that, the rest was pretty awesome.
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My only criticism as well. Actually think its more of a criticism of the previous episode and not this one. The dragon should habe died in the battle of the dead and not by euron
 
Massive Spanner said:
Thinking back on it, Dany's descent into being a mad queen does somewhat make sense going by past actions, but they just rushed it so very badly. She basically went from being in grief to not eating to burning Varys alive to wiping out an entire city of women and kids in the space of like four scenes. A character we've followed for almost a decade and have generally been supposed to root for above all others. It's such diabolical writing.
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Time of the month?
 
I think we've just seen a lot of story arcs coming to their conclusion that will make a whole lot more sense in the books where the pacing is slower and we get Point-of-View narration of events from all these characters to lead us there.

The madness was not well developed, I think. Wouldn't have taken much to do it though. Give us a few scenes with missandei and/or Jorah having a personal moment with her, a "all we've been through together, wouldn't be who I am without you' scene or some such. And pace it just a bit slower leading up to. She's isolated and resolved to rule by fear for like five minutes before it all happens.

I am more looking forward to the other story arcs than the obvious one at this point.
Which characters are actually left now? Dany, Jon Snow, Tyrion, Sansa, Arya, Brandon, Ser Davos, Brienne of Tarth, Samwell Tarly. That's it.

(I suppose also Grey Worm and Tormund Giantsbane, but I see them more as props than having their own storyline)

Sam's storyline feels unfinished at this stage, so he might have another turn in this. Same for Ser Davos. And of course Arya.

I don't think we've seen the last of the Faceless Men and their involvement with Arya.

Arya basically choosing life instead of death at the red keep seems significant to me (@amolbhatia50k - I reckon that's also further symbolised and developed by her trying to help the people there).

That seems to be it.
 
Berbaclass said:
I don't believe that at all because if it was they wouldn't have totally butchered it as they have.

Ruthless and evil aren't exactly the same thing. Doesn't explain what she did at all. It was way out of character IMO.

I don't think she's shown any real signs of 'madness' which should have been shown if they were indeed going that route. I think she's shown the very opposite and shown over 7 seasons that she is willing to be 'good' when confronted with difficult choices. She has never once done anything evil. She's murdered people but never innocent people before.
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Its been planned since season 2...



What we thought was snow was actually ash.
 
Berbaclass said:
I just think it's a cop-out to 'assassinate' the character in the manner that they have out of what seems to be sheer laziness.

She's always been ruthless, sometimes arrogant, but she's always had some degree of integrity and has only killed people that deserved it.

It just really rubbed me the wrong way.
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It was a bit rushed but shes always had to be talked out of doing crazy shit over the years. Difference now is Daario is not with her, Selmy, Jorah, Missandei are all dead with her having to watch two of them be murdered in the space of a few days. Not to mention she's seen two of her Dragons killed.

She doesn't trust Tyrion anymore and she's realized everyone in Westeros loves Jon and not her. She also thinks everyone is plotting against her, which to be fair isn't too far from the truth.

She's isolated and grieving that could make anyone snap never mind someone from a family with a history of madness.
 
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SquishyMcSquish said:
This episode also emphasised how utterly ludicrous the idea that the Iron Bank would ever back Cersei ever was.

She had 3 dragons when they decided to chuck money behind her, and a far bigger army than she did now. They should have just taken the Highgarden money and ran, instead they invested in her .. why? They're portrayed as ultra shrewd, emotionally disconnected bankers who will go with the best bet possible, yet we're meant to believe they decided Cersei had a solid chance against dragons .. because she said they had a 'solution' to them?

She had a shadow of an army left and controlled ONE city when they decided to back her financially. How are these dickheads still in business with these kind of decisions? Oh yeah here have enough to buy 20 thousand soldiers even though the whole country despises you, you have no allies apart from a mad pirate bloke, and most of your army just got melted. We're clever. The feckers even backed Stannis when he had no army or navy left, at one point they're referred to as 'the best gamblers in the world' so can we please revise that they're the fecking worst.

The Golden Company would also never have agreed to fight for Cersei. They know about the dragons, they saw how effective they were in their own continent, there's no way they sign up to get melted alive with none of their own counter measures.
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Despite its reputation, the Iron Bank almost certainly has a strong anti-Targaryen agenda. Braavos was founded by refugee slaves from Valyria.
 
It seems to me, people are mad because they didn’t want this to happen, not because it couldn’t have happened. The same people that complain about Dany turning insane are the ones that complain about Jaimie’s “character arc” not being fulfilled. What the feck. Guy who fecks his sister all his life, has done atrocities because she asked him for them, has his 4th child with her, and now he can’t still be in love only a few months after first ever leaving her?

Daenerys turning insane was there for absolutely all of you to see. Even for team Dany who might now have a hard time understanding this. Personally I’ve never been a fan of Dany. I always thought she was a bit like those self righteous high school girls that go on to study social work because they act like they’re morally superior, that love to point the finger at you when you do something wrong in their eyes, but at the same time they are free of any moral judgement themselves. You know that type? Maybe those just exist where I’m from. :P

One thing though seems pretty clear. Martin told the series writers and directors about Dany’s character development and her turning into one of the insane Targaryens.

Why did she do it? Why did she kill so many “innocent” people?
She realized she fecking hates Westeros and westeros fecking hates her. All her life, based on what her mad brother told her, she was hoping to free what was supposed to be hers. She was striving to sit on the iron throne and free Westeros from the unwanted usurper. She was hoping to be Westeros’ savior, to take back what had belonged to her family. The people would cheer for her and welcome her back. That’s what her brother thought too. Tyrion kept telling her that she could take the city peacefully if she showed enough intent on other areas. Surely fueling her thoughts that the people would eventually want her back as well, to get rid of Cersei.

Well turns out, that “freeing” anything in Westeros isn’t as black and white as is “freeing” the nomadic people of Vaes Dothrak. You cannot just show your military strength. Westeros has politics and that utterly annoys her. Politics are in her way since she first gets to Westeros.
And remember: it’s almost really her first time in Westeros. She really grew up in Essos and is in fact foreign to Westeros. Everyone hates her. Not once has she met anyone who sees her as the savior or new messiah in Westeros. That part is absolutely not working out for her.

Not only do they hate her and not see her as the messiah. Instead they absolutely love her boyfriend Jon, who then reveals to have an actual claim to the throne ahead of her. But she can’t get rid of him because she loves him. And suddenly everything she’s ever strived for is in danger and that’s regardless of the people even loving her or not. It’s clear that Jon has a claim and she doesn’t. Is it not her destiny after all? Will Jon betray her and want the throne? Will Jon betray her by telling people. She begs him. Oops, he already betrayed her by telling his family. Jon’s sister Sansa who now knows just so happens to hate Daenerys the most out of all her important allies. Will she turn the whole north against her? Damn, she’s not starting by telling the north, she just told Daenerys’ loyal, but ever failing, advisors. The same advisors that get outplayed by anyone ever. Ouch, what do the advisors do? They don’t keep their mouths shut for one day. They share it all just like Sansa wanted and conspire against her.

Think about what Daenerys has been through to get to this point. Did she not just save this entire continent of bastards by letting half her men (should be more) die in the fight against that damn night king. Did they thank her or show her love for it? She lost one of her children (dragons) to the night king. Did anyone console her or thank her for paying such a harsh price. The dragons are all she ever loved aside of her friends. Oh look the guy who always loved her had to die heroically to save her when she was trying to save Westeros without anyone acknowledging what she did. She just wants to get away from the hostile North where she feels so alone and wants to get the iron throne now.

Please, let’s go. Damn, Sansa wants to not commit the armies of the north all of a sudden? feck her, that hateful bitch, is what Daenerys thinks. I will fight now and you will be my allies, I command you to. I want this now! I am the queen, breaker of chains, khaleesi of the Dothraki sea, blablabla of whatever, god sent messiah, the one from the prophecy, Daenerys Stormborn of house Targaryen. Do you understand? Does none of this matter to you guys from Westeros?

She takes her dragons and army South. Her allies march South. Suddenly that fecking fleet of Cersei pops up and kills her second dragon while also stealing her best friend. They try to peacefully negotiate to get Missandei back. Staying peaceful is what Tyrion always advised her to do. Surely he knows his stuff. Or is he loyal to the Lannister queen after all? What about Tyrion’s brother trying to get back to King’s Landung. Tyrion was wrong again! Is it always a coincidence with Tyrion? Or is he, who is always wrong, whose family is the enemy, and who has spread word about Jon being the rightful heir of the dynasty betraying her the whole time? Whatever, he’s a damn shitty hand. She can’t take that shitty advice anymore! But hopefully his actions can save Missandei. Oops, those damn King’s Landing people just butchered Dany’s best friend, Missandei, and made her and Missandei’s boyfriend watch the spectacle. Not one sign of the people of King’s Landing wanting her back! Do they stand firmly behind Cersei? Who knows, but just like all the others from Westeros, the northerners, the Tarlys, they see Daenerys as a foreign invader and she starts to realize this.

Oh, she now realizes again that they all hate her. The city of King’s Landing hates her and is scared of her. They, the people of King’s Landing, are as much responsible for killing her father and brutally killing every other living Targaryen as are the great houses of Westeros. She remembers what they did to her family. Her entire youth she was under threat of being killed when they were hiding in Essos. Not only do they hate her but they actually want the usurper dynasties to remain. Her only way of being accepted is if Jon is her true love and her boyfriend/husband. Oops, Jon doesn’t love her anymore? Well feck it they shall feel her wrath. They killed her family, 2 of her children, her soldiers, her best friends, everyone from Westeros hates her, everyone from Westeros that seemingly doesn’t hate her is betraying her. She hates Westeros. King’s Landing is the shining symbol of Westeros. She hates King’s Landing. If they hate her, why should she give a feck about them. She is too drawn hin by her prophecy and her development into being a ruler to realize that maybe she should step down. She can’t win peacefully now. Well if she can’t win peacefully then it’s time to let them know that she has other means to win a war. She is the mother of dragons and they will feel her wrath. To hell with King’s Landing, to hell with Westeros!


Regarding Arya’s arc:
Why does her arc have to be completed by killing Cersei?? If anything her arc is her becoming the hound, a ruthless, non-emotional killer. Is it not enough that Bran has no emotions? Arya’s made up step dad, the hound himself, makes her realize in the last seconds that she is still young and has a life to live. She doesn’t have to die brutally, killing someone who will die anyway. She is not so stupid that she doesn’t realize when it’s time to stop playing. She was ripped out of her war frenzy just then and rightfully the hour after she as well as the viewers get shown just how brutal war and killing are. That is one hell of a character arc in my opinion.

Regarding Jon not doing anything:
Again, have the people complaining been watching in the last seasons? When was the last time Jon did the smart thing instead of what seemed like the right thing? Jon has been dumb for a couple of seasons now with all of his decisions. He is exactly in line with the male Starks in that he values honor too much and thus gets played like a fiddle and gets other people as well as potentially himself killed (well he’s a Targaryen but his mother is a Stark and he was raised a Stark). Check again for Ned and Rob. Same thing! Jon is too gullible and he’s paying for it when he realizes in the streets of King’s Landing that he should’ve made the dishonorable but ultimately right choice in not following Daenerys. He is not Aragorn who needs to sit on the throne in the end. This is GoT, it’s not all black and white, not everyone who people thought would be useful, will be useful.

Regarding Jaimie and Cersei:
Again, this is GoT. Is it bad writing that the villains didn’t get killed by the heroes? Is it good writing if just like in every other medieval movie, series, or book ever, they did in fact get killed in one final duel against team Jon and Daenerys in the last episode? Sorry but that’s a stupid idea. People who want this should’ve stopped watching when Ned didn’t become king but go beheaded in season 1 or when it all ended for the OG king in the north.

Regarding Euron:
I agree, he’s a dumb character, everything he does on the show is presented kind of badly, his actions are far too drastic and successful every single time. He’s the only one who can do everything first try. I also didn’t like his previous development in the show. That said, his end wasn’t necessarily out of character for the silly pirate/Viking that he was.

Regarding episode 4:
I agree that that one was shit
Episode 5 however is seems to get criticized because people’s feelings got hurt as it was so outrageous.
 
It would have been more interesting to me if she just went a bit crazy, instead of 100% crazy. Maybe if she just killed the soldiers and Cersei despite them surrendering. Or just a few innocents while trying to get to Cersei. That would have set up an interesting final conflict between Jon style of being an idealist and Danny a realist. Instead she turned into a homicidal kid burning maniac and there's no nuance left to her character anymore.
 
The scorpions being eliminated like that worked well enough for me, at least against the fleet.

They managed to kill one dragon with the element of surprise and being able to choose the tactical setup.

Drogon attacked from a completely vertical angle and was too close in range to be targeted properly.

I see scorpions as being a good weapon at range when you see you enemy coming and can basically lay down suppressive fire while the dragon needs to close range. Inside your own ranks, zigzagging through the lines - Forget about it.

If it were that easy to neutralise dragons, they wouldn't have been such effective weapons in the past. Scorpions aren't new inventions.
 
B20 said:
The scorpions being eliminated like that worked well enough for me, at least against the fleet.

They managed to kill one dragon with the element of surprise and being able to choose the tactical setup.

Drogon attacked from a completely vertical angle and was too close in range to be targeted properly.

I see scorpions as being a good weapon at range when you see you enemy coming and can basically lay down suppressive fire while the dragon needs to close range. Inside your own ranks, zigzagging through the lines - Forget about it.

If it were that easy to neutralise dragons, they wouldn't have been such effective weapons in the past. Scorpions aren't new inventions.
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Yeah, they were fecked as soon as she got close and caught them by surprise. When she flew in low towards the castle walls, then flew up as soon as they fired the scorpions' weakness was made blatant.
 
B20 said:
The scorpions being eliminated like that worked well enough for me, at least against the fleet.

They managed to kill one dragon with the element of surprise and being able to choose the tactical setup.

Drogon attacked from a completely vertical angle and was too close in range to be targeted properly.

I see scorpions as being a good weapon at range when you see you enemy coming and can basically lay down suppressive fire while the dragon needs to close range. Inside your own ranks, zigzagging through the lines - Forget about it.

If it were that easy to neutralise dragons, they wouldn't have been such effective weapons in the past. Scorpions aren't new inventions.
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That's a good point.
I wonder why were there no archers active on King's Landing though, ideally you'd want people manning the scorpions and archers for a complete defence from range.
 
Lyricist said:
Daenerys turning insane was there for absolutely all of you to see. Even for team Dany who might now have a hard time understanding this. Personally I’ve never been a fan of Dany. I always thought she was a bit like those self righteous high school girls that go on to study social work because they act like they’re morally superior, that love to point the finger at you when you do something wrong in their eyes, but at the same time they are free of any moral judgement themselves. You know that type? Maybe those just exist where I’m from. :P

One thing though seems pretty clear. Martin told the series writers and directors about Dany’s character development and her turning into one of the insane Targaryens.

Why did she do it? Why did she kill so many “innocent” people?
She realized she fecking hates Westeros and westeros fecking hates her. All her life, based on what her mad brother told her, she was hoping to free what was supposed to be hers. She was striving to sit on the iron throne and free Westeros from the unwanted usurper. She was hoping to be Westeros’ savior, to take back what had belonged to her family. The people would cheer for her and welcome her back. That’s what her brother thought too. Tyrion kept telling her that she could take the city peacefully if she showed enough intent on other areas. Surely fueling her thoughts that the people would eventually want her back as well, to get rid of Cersei.
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People don't have an issue with her going "loco", it was always on the cards. It's how quickly she transitioned into that madness that is crazy. The change of character is absolutely fecking fast and ridiculous.

stevoc said:
It was a bit rushed but shes always had to be talked out of doing crazy shit over the years. Difference now is Daario is not with her, Selmy, Jorah, Missandei are all dead with her having to watch two of them be murdered in the space of a few days. Not to mention she's seen two of her Dragons killed.

She doesn't trust Tyrion anymore and she's realized everyone in Westeros loves Jon and not her. She also thinks everyone is plotting against her, which to be fair isn't too far from the truth.

She's isolated and grieving that could make anyone snap never mind someone from a family with a history of madness.
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That's the key right there but not just a bit. It makes sense when you think about it, the show needed one big baddie for the last episode.
 
arnie_ni said:
Its been planned since season 2...



What we thought was snow was actually ash.
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It wasn't ash, people should stop reposting this. When Daenerys walks into the hall, you can hear the crunching noise of snow under her feet, and later on when she's close to the throne, it starts snowing and you see individual snowflakes. Right after that, her vision continues with an exit from the throne room to the gate through to the icy north of the wall. The vision is another point to the theme of "the throne is irrelevant vs the threat of the Others".
 
@Lyricist I commend your passionate defense of shit writing :lol:

Personally think Arya, Hound, Cersei, Jamie, Jon were all handled decently. But the razing of KL is and always will be completely daft.

As I've said before, this is the same Dany that cried and locked up her children when they killed a farmers child. The same Dany that always tried to be just and punish the wicked. She also offered mercy to those who would join her cause. She spoke about how she isn't here to burn down cities. She's really never once harmed someone who you could say is innocent, (maybe like one bloke?). She's only ever punished those who committed atrocities. So yeah, as much as you are trying... it is shit writing and she hasn't given any indication she could ever do that. Like I said, having her burn down the red keep killing Cersei and those civilians Cersei surrounded herself being collateral damage with would have been somewhat believable, but just going around killing most the population... come on now. Baffles me how people are defending it.

It's quite clear to be that with only 6 episodes left they had to do something dramatic, so now they've set it up for Dany to be killed. They couldn't have done that if she just burned a few people through collateral damage, they needed to make her go full Tyrant. So yeah, sow a few seeds that her rule might be undermined by Jons claim, kill her best friend for a bit of grief mixed in and hey presto, our Dragon Queen can now roast a bunch of kids cause surely that's enough reason too... right! Nevermind that it goes against everything she's been about for 7 seasons... she's the daughter of the mad King! She's grieving! She's angry! Nevermind that she's already won the war for christ sake :lol:



Hilarious how D&D really just can't write for shit. What the feck does he mean "Make this personal". This is the writing you are defending...
 
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