Television Game of Thrones (TV) • The watch has ended

[LilyWhiteSpur]

It wouldn't have been 3 for 3 from one scorpion. Given the likely reload times, I'd guess that the shots were fired from different weapons on different ships. For all we know, other harpoons missed off-screen. There's not much point in the director showing shots being missed when the interesting part of the scene is the shots that actually make hits.

Euron's ships were hidden and waiting for the dragons (presumably the screeches could be heard them before either Drogon or Rhaegon could spot them in return). It's likely that the bows were trained in the general direction for a while. In any case, after the first shot got lucky, subsequent shots would have been easier against a slower target.

*the ships were hidden* so an entire fleet was hidden out of sight while they spotted 2 dragons in the sky at quite a distance were spotted? Then the up grade of what seemed to be heat seeking arrows were deployed and a dragon was killed in seconds? A load of steaming pooh.

They have completely ruined Danny in the space of 2 episodes. I mean having 2 warm weather armies completely dessamated against zombies was dumb as well. It’s a shame as the episode started well.

Don’t even start me on the ending.

1. Roll up to Kings Landing
2. Tyrion “Cerisi you must surrender”
3. Cerisi “no”
4. Tyrion “oh ok then sis

 

[Massive Spanner]

Am I the only one who thinks everything seems to be rushed?

HBO should've given this another season.

it's costing HBO an absolute fortune now with the salaries of the big actors and all the CGI etc. Pretty sure they've been wanting to cut seasons and end it themselves for a while, and instead cash in on the prequel (or prequels). They're also subscription based so being reliant on one show which only airs a few months a year is bad from a business perspective.

I'm not even sure another season would help. All the issues with this season are just from really, really lazy writing from two creators who don't seem to give a shit anymore and just want it to be over (hence rejecting to be involved in the prequel in any way). You can tell from their Inside the Episode videos that they've put zero thought into anything and are just doing it to get it finished.

 

[ivaldo]

The internet is such a shit place. Has anything ever gotten so popular without people clambering to piss on it?

 

[Massive Spanner]

The internet is such a shit place. Has anything ever gotten so popular without people clambering to piss on it?

Yeah, Breaking Bad. Nobody pissed on the last season of that because it was actually up to the standard of the rest of the show.

 

[ivaldo]

Yeah, Breaking Bad. Nobody pissed on the last season of that because it was actually up to the standard of the rest of the show.

Ah, so unless it isn’t cafs choice of the best ever tv show, it needs to be mercilessly shat on from a great height.

 

[Massive Spanner]

Ah, so unless it isn’t cafs choice of the best ever tv show, it needs to be mercilessly shat on from a great height.

Up until the last two seasons GoT probably was the Caf's favourite ever TV show.

I mean it became overwhelmingly popular once Ned's head got chopped off yet everyone on here was still loving it after that.

Maybe, like, I dunno.. it's just shit compared to what it used to be?

 

[Rado_N]

The Wire is generally considered by most to be the best TV show ever and even that took a decent amount of grief for the drop off in its final season.

I really can't wrap my head around how arsey some people on here get when GoT gets some criticism.

 

[ivaldo]

Up until the last two seasons GoT probably was the Caf's favourite ever TV show.

I mean it became overwhelmingly popular once Ned's head got chopped off yet everyone on here was loving it after that.

Maybe, like, I dunno.. it's just shit compared to what it used to be?

It’s in vogue now to pick holes in largely unimportant aspects of the show in order to accentuate how terrible we now all think it is. These issues existed before the last 2 episodes, but now everything has to be explained in excruciating detail to us in the episode, otherwise it’s bad writing - as if that would make entertaining viewing.

BB is a good comparable actually. It was a bloody good show but was far from perfect. Some truly thick decision making was used to advance the plot, and towards the end the show was packed with filler.

 

[ivaldo]

The Wire is generally considered by most to be the best TV show ever and even that took a decent amount of grief for the drop off in its final season.

I really can't wrap my head around how arsey some people on here get when GoT gets some criticism.

It’s pages upon pages of who can hate the show the most. I thought I’d come on here to discuss the episode, how wrong was I? The wumming is fun though.

 

[Massive Spanner]

It’s in vogue now to pick holes in largely unimportant aspects of the show in order to accentuate how terrible we now all think it is. These issues existed before the last 2 episodes, but now everything has to be explained in excruciating detail to us in the episode, otherwise it’s bad writing - as if that would make entertaining viewing.

BB is a good comparable actually. It was a bloody good show but was far from perfect. Some truly thick decision making was used to advance the plot, and towards the end the show was packed with filler.

I don't think it's terrible, I think it's still enjoyable to watch but not for the same reasons it used to be, and it's not a patch on what it used to be. Sure there have always been plot holes and silly dialogue here and there but absolutely nothing compared to the scale of what's happening now.

I just don't agree with the idea that people "love" to shit on shows cause they're popular, that's nonsense, people are shitting on it because they're disappointed with it. Though obviously there are some WUM's in here (dumbo, Dante) but they just come across as bigger eejits than the rest anyway.

 

[NinjaZombie]

*the ships were hidden* so an entire fleet was hidden out of sight while they spotted 2 dragons in the sky at quite a distance were spotted? Then the up grade of what seemed to be heat seeking arrows were deployed and a dragon was killed in seconds? A load of steaming pooh.

They have completely ruined Danny in the space of 2 episodes. I mean having 2 warm weather armies completely dessamated against zombies was dumb as well. It’s a shame as the episode started well.

Don’t even start me on the ending.

1. Roll up to Kings Landing
2. Tyrion “Cerisi you must surrender”
3. Cerisi “no”
4. Tyrion “oh ok then sis

She even brought her last dragon to sit in plain sight as they "negotiated." I don't know what makes less sense, that decision of hers or that Cersei didn't take the chance to finish off arguably the only advantage Daenerys had.

It's a shame what has happened to this show.

 

[ivaldo]

I don't think it's terrible, I think it's still enjoyable to watch but not for the same reasons it used to be, and it's not a patch on what it used to be. Sure there have always been plot holes and silly dialogue here and there but absolutely nothing compared to the scale of what's happening now.

I just don't agree with the idea that people "love" to shit on shows cause they're popular, that's nonsense, people are shitting on it because they're disappointed with it.

It was never going to keep to the standards people wanted. It had to come to an end, and that end means pulling together countless, incomplete story arcs abandoned by Martin, coalescing in enormous battles. What made the earlier seasons so good, the political intrigue and manoeuvrings to play the Game of Thrones, are over now.

 

[Mr Pigeon]

Ah, so unless it isn’t cafs choice of the best ever tv show, it needs to be mercilessly shat on from a great height.

I loved the show, still do. It's probably the best thing on TV but now it's due to its legacy. This season, and the last which imo was actually worse, have been a botched job. I'm not one of those book wankers either - I'll still say to my dying breath that Season 6 was the best and 5 (if you completely ignored Dorne) was pretty good too.

 

[LilyWhiteSpur]

She even brought her last dragon to sit in plain sight as they "negotiated." I don't know what makes less sense, that decision of hers or that Cersei didn't take the chance to finish off arguably the only advantage Daenerys had.

It's a shame what has happened to this show.

Yeah it’s laughable now, all the cunning and politics have gone. No one is likeable. It all went to shit as soon as there was no reference from the books.

Martin is notoriously slow in his writing and it’s so clear he couldn’t keep up with the demands from HBO, so they just said feck it and did all they can to wrap it up.

Il be honest I’m a reader of the books from the very first publication date and I don’t think il even bother reading the next book.

 

[Rado_N]

It’s pages upon pages of who can hate the show the most. I thought I’d come on here to discuss the episode, how wrong was I? The wumming is fun though.

That's mostly because people have become so invested in it over the years and are so disappointed with what it's become.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

It was never going to keep to the standards people wanted. It had to come to an end, and that end means pulling together countless, incomplete story arcs abandoned by Martin, coalescing in enormous battles. What made the earlier seasons so good, the political intrigue and manoeuvrings to play the Game of Thrones, are over now.

It's just too big to maintain the quality. It needs like 5 more seasons to really fulfill the story Something like Breaking Bad was extremely small in comparison. Now we are left with rushed narratives like Missandei and Grey Worm holding hands for a 5 seconds to express the depth of their affection for each other. Its become a mad rush to tie everything up.

 

[Massive Spanner]

It was never going to keep to the standards people wanted. It had to come to an end, and that end means pulling together countless, incomplete story arcs abandoned by Martin, coalescing in enormous battles. What made the earlier seasons so good, the political intrigue and manoeuvrings to play the Game of Thrones, are over now.

That doesn't mean people can't be disappointed and pick it apart for that, though?

I said earlier in the thread that D&D had an impossible job finishing off the show without Martin's material so I mostly agree, but they could have still went about it in a far better way. They've abandoned so much of what made the show great.

 

[Massive Spanner]

Il be honest I’m a reader of the books from the very first publication date and I don’t think il even bother reading the next book.

it's cute that you think there will be another book

 

[ivaldo]

It's just too big to maintain the quality. It needs like 5 more seasons to really fulfill the story Something like Breaking Bad was extremely small in comparison. Now we are left with rushed narratives like Missandei and Grey Worm holding hands for a 5 seconds to express the depth of their affection for each other. Its become a mad rush to tie everything up.

We knew this would be the case years ago though. Martins abandonment shows it’s not just an issue with the show. Anyone who didn’t think we would see this haven’t been paying close enough attention. It’s gone way beyond it now though, people complaining about every little thing.

 

[sullydnl]

Yeah, Breaking Bad. Nobody pissed on the last season of that because it was actually up to the standard of the rest of the show.

Even in that case there were still nitpicky complaints throughout though. Plot points like the ricin getting in the sachet or Jesse making the leap to figuring out Walt poisoned Brock accused of being "weak writing". People complaining that Hank being killed by a minor character was unsatisfying. The first half of the season at least being criticised for a drop in quality & a being rushed. Even the amount of POV shots being criticised, despite that always being part of the Breaking Bad house style. Not to mention the consistent whining about characters like Skylar & Walt Jr.

Point being even with quality shows some people seem to actively enjoy taking time to be forensically critical, let alone with a show as inherently flawed as GOT.

 

[ivaldo]

That doesn't mean people can't be disappointed and pick it apart for that, though?

I said earlier in the thread that D&D had an impossible job finishing off the show without Martin's material so I mostly agree, but they could have still went about it in a far better way. They've abandoned so much of what made the show great.

Disappointment would indicate people didn’t think that this would happen? It’s like now Cersei not murdering them all when they arrive for negotiation is lazy writing, but when they congregate to show them the undead in season 7 it wasn’t such a catastrophe.

They had to abandon a lot of it surely? Spiralling costs mean the show had to be finished, and that means the full story behind the white walkers, the prince that was promised, foreshadowing Melisandres arrival etc had to be cut.

 

[kouroux]

She even brought her last dragon to sit in plain sight as they "negotiated." I don't know what makes less sense, that decision of hers or that Cersei didn't take the chance to finish off arguably the only advantage Daenerys had.

It's a shame what has happened to this show.

Pretty sure that the distance was also shorter than the one where the other was speared from the boat and he was stationnary. If they gave us that dragon death, they cannot just show him like that, it would have been better if Dani came in front of the gates with higher numbers and no dragon

 

[Massive Spanner]

Disappointment would indicate people didn’t think that this would happen? It’s like now Cersei not murdering them all when they arrive for negotiation is lazy writing, but when they congregate to show them the undead in season 7 it wasn’t such a catastrophe.

They had to abandon a lot of it surely? Spiralling costs mean the show had to be finished, and that means the full story behind the white walkers, the prince that was promised, foreshadowing Melisandres arrival etc had to be cut.

Why? The first two episodes were just build up to the fight. All of those things you've listed don't involve any expensive set pieces. They could definitely have done a bit more on them, especially the WW's.

Anyway, I did enjoy the first three episodes and I haven't been one of the people in here nitpicking every flaw with the show, but this episode really was dreadful, not because of the plot holes and Euron's fleet coming out of nowhere or whatever (I thought that actually made for a good, unexpected shock moment, something the show has lacked lately). Mostly because it absolutely butchered some great characters and had them all doing ridiculous things that make no sense when you consider their actions over the last eight seasons. D&D's quote about Dany "sort of forgetting the iron fleet existed" also pissed me off, they clearly don't give a shit.

 

[Massive Spanner]

Even in that case there were still nitpicky complaints throughout though. Plot points like the ricin getting in the sachet or Jesse making the leap to figuring out Walt poisoned Brock accused of being "weak writing". People complaining that Hank being killed by a minor character was unsatisfying. The first half of the season at least being criticised for a drop in quality & a being rushed. Even the amount of POV shots being criticised, despite that always being part of the Breaking Bad house style. Not to mention the consistent whining about characters like Skylar & Walt Jr.

Point being even with quality shows some people seem to actively enjoy taking time to be forensically critical, let alone with a show as inherently flawed as GOT.

Ah come on, most of the reactions to BB's final season was overwhelmingly positive. Some people will always nitpick but it was nothing like in here. And as you say, with BB it was nitpicking the finer details, with GoT right now it's pointing out blatantly shit and silly writing and plot holes and character interactions etc.

 

[dumbo]

"Everything you did brought you to where you are now, where you belong, home."

“Without Littlefinger and Ramsay and the rest, I would've stayed a little bird all my life.”

Nope.

 

[esmufc07]

Imagine if GoT did a Breaking Bad style 'Fly' episode.

 

[kouroux]

Some great breakdown and speculation about the rest of the season below

Spoiler

 

[ivaldo]

Why? The first two episodes were just build up to the fight. All of those things you've listed don't involve any expensive set pieces. They could definitely have done a bit more on them, especially the WW's.

Anyway, I did enjoy the first three episodes and I haven't been one of the people in here nitpicking every flaw with the show, but this episode really was dreadful, not because of the plot holes and Euron's fleet coming out of nowhere or whatever (I thought that actually made for a good, unexpected shock moment, something the show has lacked lately). Mostly because it absolutely butchered some great characters and had them all doing ridiculous things that make no sense when you consider their actions over the last eight seasons. D&D's quote about Dany "sort of forgetting the iron fleet existed" also pissed me off, they clearly don't give a shit.

And then the reunion of what, a dozen? Main characters would be missed entirely. People were already complaining that was all over too quickly.

I think people have put too much stock into what was said there. I highly doubt they're saying she literally forgot. Let's remember she's grieving the lost of a child and is losing her mind. She was advised against rushing south so quickly but seems almost consumed with revenge.

 

[Samid]

Just read that D and D aka dumb and dumber will be directing the season finale. If you were expecting a good ending, you haven’t been paying attention...

Shut it Ramsay.

 

[Drifter]

The way this season is going.

 

[Massive Spanner]

And then the reunion of what, a dozen? Main characters would be missed entirely. People were already complaining that was all over too quickly.

I think people have put too much stock into what was said there. I highly doubt they're saying she literally forgot. Let's remember she's grieving the lost of a child and is losing her mind. She was advised against rushing south so quickly but seems almost consumed with revenge.

And miss nothing? They have Bran there who knows everything that's ever fecking happened and nobody bothered to sit down and ask him a few questions

 

[sullydnl]

Ah come on, most of the reactions to BB's final season was overwhelmingly positive. Some people will always nitpick but it was nothing like in here. And as you say, with BB it was nitpicking the finer details, with GoT right now it's pointing out blatantly shit and silly writing and plot holes and character interactions etc.

Oh yeah, I'm not actually comparing the two in that sense. GOT is deservedly getting more criticism, even if I think it was always going to be impossible to end the show in a way that wasn't criticised given the nature of the adaptation, even without taking lazy writing into account. Breaking Bad was an easier show to make and it shows.

It's the fact that people are being extremely nitpicky on top of that that leads to this thread becoming page after page of complaining. I mean even with all the valid things to criticise, posters are still reaching beyond that to random things like Tyrion being rude when he's drunk or Arya not having killed Cersei yet (when she's literally on the way to do that). Which leads one to think that criticising the show has become a game in itself for some.

It was telling that the second episode of this season got a lot of criticism here despite it being generally acclaimed by critics. As opposed to, say, a truly weak show like the Walking Dead where criticism of weak writing tends to be shared by both.

All of which is fine, I guess. Hate watching can be fun. It's just odd when some people stay up until 2am to do so or whatever.

 

[Raees]

It’s in vogue now to pick holes in largely unimportant aspects of the show in order to accentuate how terrible we now all think it is. These issues existed before the last 2 episodes, but now everything has to be explained in excruciating detail to us in the episode, otherwise it’s bad writing - as if that would make entertaining viewing.

BB is a good comparable actually. It was a bloody good show but was far from perfect. Some truly thick decision making was used to advance the plot, and towards the end the show was packed with filler.

Ozymandias was the second to last episode? And the last season has several iconic episodes and moments... so I disagree about the end of the show being packed with filler.

Reason why people are hating on Thrones so much is that the standard this show set and the level of expectation was at the same level of BB and the Wire and when you take into account the size of the fan base which is much more global in scope - lot of people are vested in it and not just the book nerds.

For them to take their eye off the ball coming into the final stretch and cut corners is quite frankly criminal. Personally I think the season has had it’s good moments but I can also see why so many are up in arms and are justified in doing so.

I don’t agree with the it’s just ‘tits and dragons’ - GOT is an era defining show, it has been up there with the very finest entertainment ever produced on screen so one would have hoped that with all the so called ‘exciting’ stuff to come and the various possibilities of conclusion it would have lived up to the hype and a lot of love and attention be paid to the storyline aspect to it.

GRRM has to take the large part of the blame, but D and D owed it to themselves to do a much better job as they’re hurting their own legacy at the moment.

 

[ivaldo]

And miss nothing? They have Bran there who knows everything that's ever fecking happened and nobody bothered to sit down and ask him a few questions

You seriously think people wouldn't complain if the coalescence of 75% of the remaining main characters was just bypassed? People are already complaining about 'teleporting'.

 

[Massive Spanner]

Oh yeah, I'm not actually comparing the two in that sense. GOT is deservedly getting more criticism, even if I think it was always going to be impossible to end the show in a way that wasn't criticised given the nature of the adaptation, even without taking lazy writing into account. Breaking Bad was an easier show to make and it shows.

It's the fact that people are being extremely nitpicky on top of that that leads to this thread becoming page after page of complaining. I mean even with all the valid things to criticise, posters are still reaching beyond that to random things like Tyrion being rude when he's drunk or Arya not having killed Cersei yet (when she's literally on the way to do that). Which leads one to think that criticising the show has become a game in itself for some.

It was telling that the second episode of this season got a lot of criticism here despite it being generally acclaimed by critics. As opposed to, say, a truly weak show like the Walking Dead where criticism of weak writing tends to be shared by both.

All of which is fine, I guess. Hate watching can be fun. It's just odd when some people stay up until 2am to do so or whatever.

Yeah I wouldn't disagree with any of that. Like I said I largely enjoyed the first three episodes (especially the second, which is the best episode of GoT since season six imo), and found the criticism very OTT and silly (even though I agreed with some, especially on episode three), but episode four was really, really, really bad, shockingly so. A bit like Beyond the Wall in season seven, which was followed by a strong finale, so I'm not completely writing the show off or anything, I still think they have it in them to pull off a good final two episodes because they've usually nailed the end of season episodes in the past.

 

[Massive Spanner]

You seriously think people wouldn't complain if the coalescence of 75% of the remaining main characters was just bypassed? People are already complaining about 'teleporting'.

Ehh I didn't say they needed to bypass any of that. I said they could've easily kept something like the scene where Tyrion talked to Bran but instead they skipped over it.

 

[Raees]

Oh yeah, I'm not actually comparing the two in that sense. GOT is deservedly getting more criticism, even if I think it was always going to be impossible to end the show in a way that wasn't criticised given the nature of the adaptation, even without taking lazy writing into account. Breaking Bad was an easier show to make and it shows.

It's the fact that people are being extremely nitpicky on top of that that leads to this thread becoming page after page of complaining. I mean even with all the valid things to criticise, posters are still reaching beyond that to random things like Tyrion being rude when he's drunk or Arya not having killed Cersei yet (when she's literally on the way to do that). Which leads one to think that criticising the show has become a game in itself for some.

It was telling that the second episode of this season got a lot of criticism here despite it being generally acclaimed by critics. As opposed to, say, a truly weak show like the Walking Dead where criticism of weak writing tends to be shared by both.

All of which is fine, I guess. Hate watching can be fun. It's just odd when some people stay up until 2am to do so or whatever.

Agree with this too - some people are just criticising for criticising sake.

The time travelling stuff for instance - like the show needs to cut down on that in order to advance the plot, nothing wrong with that.

Jamie leaving Brienne because he’s damaged and has unfinished business makes sense compared to him being a fully redeemed new person ready to start a new life. He’s a fecked up guy who is likely to keep making fecked up decisions. He’s not going to be perfect. That is consistent.

Likewise Arya ditching Gendry.

Even saw Varys being called an idiot on the net for constantly changing sides etc but I thought last episode was a return to form for instance as he was back to scheming for the ‘realm’ and that aspect to his purpose has been left a mystery for the viewer to fill in themselves.

 

[ivaldo]

Ehh I didn't say they needed to bypass any of that. I said they could've easily kept something like the scene where Tyrion talked to Bran but instead they skipped over it.

Well they're going to have to if they want to fit in any of the aforementioned stuff. Something has to give.

 

[Mr Pigeon]

Maybe D&D feel really sorry that George is stressing out trying to finish his last two books, maybe he's told them that everything he writes seems underwhelming and contrived? Because of this D&D are being top blokes and ruining the show so that anything George releases will be seen as a masterpiece regardless of its quality?

Nice guys, them D&D fellas.

 

[Redlambs]

Agree with this too - some people are just criticising for criticising sake.

The time travelling stuff for instance - like the show needs to cut down on that in order to advance the plot, nothing wrong with that.

Jamie leaving Brienne because he’s damaged and has unfinished business makes sense compared to him being a fully redeemed new person ready to start a new life. He’s a fecked up guy who is likely to keep making fecked up decisions. He’s not going to be perfect. That is consistent.

Likewise Arya ditching Gendry.

Even saw Varys being called an idiot on the net for constantly changing sides etc but I thought last episode was a return to form for instance as he was back to scheming for the ‘realm’ and that aspect to his purpose has been left a mystery for the viewer to fill in themselves.

I agree with most of this, except that last bit. I'm not calling Varys himself the idiot, but the way he's been portrayed again. Much like Tyrion.


In any case I do agree with you guys about the nitpicking on the small stuff, like Arya not already having ninja'd Cersei (she's already on her way down ffs!), but the rest is fair game. It's equally daft to just claim people are doing it because it's "vogue" or whatever nonsense, because lots of us have very valid points that haven't exactly had good answers.

For me, my complaints have been mostly about how easy it would have been for them to slightly change moments to make sense. The Dothraki charge for example, it looked great and built tension, but would have needed just one line from Jon to have made it make sense. The fact they didn't, and now claim Dany just forgets about major forces against her, does kind of suggest lazy writing purely for tv moments does it not?

It's fair to criticise what they've done and how the show has changed. But I agree it's not really fair to criticise what hasn't happened yet that still could