Oberyn completely schooled him one on one. He only got himself killed becuase he had a different agenda than merely winning the fight.The Mountain is a bit of an enigma, because if he can't feel pain (he's a zombie so makes sense right?) and he's in full plate armour, how the feck do you kill a guy of that size 1 on 1.
Is he like a wight where he has to be burned or killed with valyrian steel/dragonglass? Or is he more a traditional zombie where you gotta go for the head?
Television Game of Thrones (TV) • The watch has ended
- Thread starter ha_rooney
- Start date
I've been talking with someone at work today about the latest episode. We both agreed on the following being major issues with it:
- The Dothraki charging blindly into the unknown was stupid. It made no tactical sense and they had no idea how many or what they were charging into. I’ll let this slide because I can’t think of any other way they could’ve been useful against this enemy, but surely there was a better way to use cavalry than that? Why did Dany agree to this tactic which involved a huge risk to the bulk of her army?
- Why no archers? Archers could’ve at least broken up the charging swarm a bit and they have high walls to use. Instead they take the dead man to man pretty much.
- How did Ghost survive when most of the Dothraki were easily swamped, and where did he feck off to?
- Why did the Night King and Jon have two big stare downs in seasons five & seven suggesting they were going to fight at some point, only for Arya to kill him?
- Season one, episode one. Scene one. White Walkers are shown and this instantly indicates that there’s some big bad out there. They finally get through the wall, winter is here etc. Then it’s over after one battle. This threat which was supposed to make every thing else irrelevant is reduced to one major battle and now it’s over. Ridiculous. They were south of the wall for three episodes.
- I can’t get on board with the idea that Cersei is the final boss of the show. You’re telling me she’s more of a threat than an army of the dead numbering 100k, White Walker’s and their leader riding a dead dragon?
- Plot armour. If you're going to make sure all of the major characters survive at least make it realistic. Dany has absolutely no combat experience but suddenly she’s chopping down white’s like a pro. Sam should be dead but isn’t. Did the dead see him there crying on the ground and think: “nah he’s not worth it more”? Everyone in the crypt should be dead but somehow all of the named characters conveniently survive. At least make it plausible. Don’t even get me started on Jon who consistently does dumb things throughout the series but makes it through. Why was he even brought back to life if he was going to be so useless? He’s crap when it comes to battles.
- Why did Bran warg into the Ravens? This served no purpose in the episode. Did Bran want a better view of the battle?
- What was Theon’s strategy when charging into the NK? Wouldn’t he have a better chance standing his ground where he was?
- Where did Arya come from? There’s no way she could’ve got past all of the other White Walker’s and the dead but somehow she ninjas her way through and it’s over.
- Why were the other White Walker’s there? They didn’t fight anyone or do anything apart from stand there. Are they the Night King’s personal staff or something?
My biggest issue is that the White Walker threat was resolved so quickly but I guess they’ve only got six episodes to deal with everything so...
Anyway rant over. Let’s see what they do with what they have left.
- The Dothraki charging blindly into the unknown was stupid. It made no tactical sense and they had no idea how many or what they were charging into. I’ll let this slide because I can’t think of any other way they could’ve been useful against this enemy, but surely there was a better way to use cavalry than that? Why did Dany agree to this tactic which involved a huge risk to the bulk of her army?
- Why no archers? Archers could’ve at least broken up the charging swarm a bit and they have high walls to use. Instead they take the dead man to man pretty much.
- How did Ghost survive when most of the Dothraki were easily swamped, and where did he feck off to?
- Why did the Night King and Jon have two big stare downs in seasons five & seven suggesting they were going to fight at some point, only for Arya to kill him?
- Season one, episode one. Scene one. White Walkers are shown and this instantly indicates that there’s some big bad out there. They finally get through the wall, winter is here etc. Then it’s over after one battle. This threat which was supposed to make every thing else irrelevant is reduced to one major battle and now it’s over. Ridiculous. They were south of the wall for three episodes.
- I can’t get on board with the idea that Cersei is the final boss of the show. You’re telling me she’s more of a threat than an army of the dead numbering 100k, White Walker’s and their leader riding a dead dragon?
- Plot armour. If you're going to make sure all of the major characters survive at least make it realistic. Dany has absolutely no combat experience but suddenly she’s chopping down white’s like a pro. Sam should be dead but isn’t. Did the dead see him there crying on the ground and think: “nah he’s not worth it more”? Everyone in the crypt should be dead but somehow all of the named characters conveniently survive. At least make it plausible. Don’t even get me started on Jon who consistently does dumb things throughout the series but makes it through. Why was he even brought back to life if he was going to be so useless? He’s crap when it comes to battles.
- Why did Bran warg into the Ravens? This served no purpose in the episode. Did Bran want a better view of the battle?
- What was Theon’s strategy when charging into the NK? Wouldn’t he have a better chance standing his ground where he was?
- Where did Arya come from? There’s no way she could’ve got past all of the other White Walker’s and the dead but somehow she ninjas her way through and it’s over.
- Why were the other White Walker’s there? They didn’t fight anyone or do anything apart from stand there. Are they the Night King’s personal staff or something?
My biggest issue is that the White Walker threat was resolved so quickly but I guess they’ve only got six episodes to deal with everything so...
Anyway rant over. Let’s see what they do with what they have left.
That futile look on his face is what I went through watching Messi take that free kick tonight. Messi is the dead dragon to my Jon Snow.
I was thinking - no you re not fecking charging you re moving too slow. Run Jon, run. fecker was taking a stroll.
The Helm's Deep influences were certainly there. In particular, the scene of WWs sacrificing themselves in the fire to create a path is similar to the orc in Helm's Deep who blows himself up to create a hole in the deeping wall.
Yeah it’s been said that she’s a lot like Arya.
I'm slightly disappointed that we didn't get to see anyone with Valyrian swords (Brienne - Oathkeeper, Jaime - Widow's Wail, Jorah - Heartsbane, Jon - Longclaw) fight the White Walkers.
Yeah, that's a missed opportunity. Jorah at least should have gone down like that.
I have seen many complaining about the writing (just skimmed the last few pages, so maybe assumption here) or something close to it as Dothraki army just charged into darkness, military set up was not correct or perfect. My question is, why is it a issue? John Snow, Danny and all the army are humans. So is it not realistic that they made mistakes rather than acting/setting the army with perfection?
It's also about making good TV.. Hyping the audience with the fire swords and then getting the audience tense when they all disappear.
As a funny youtube comment pointed out, Dothraki culture is quite aggressive and they likely would have gone round the North raping women has they stuck around. Makes sense for them all to go.
Given they are chaotic nutters who enjoy battle and going gung ho to kill like its a sport (literally quoted by Jaime Lannister when he saw them last season).. Its hardly surprising they were bullish and wanted to take out as many as they could in a suicide charge.
Setting out the dragons to set the walkers on fire this early was equally risky. Audience would have complained if that happened too, saying "didn't Jon and Danny learn from the last time they used dragons against walkers" etc.
Didn't Jon get battered by that guy in Craster's keep with the knives until one of his daughter's got him in the back anyway? Greatest swordsman my hole.
Mate Karl Tanner was a fookin legend in Gin Alley. A fookin LEGEND
Yeah how is he even still alive? Huge plot hole there imo
They've really set up Jon as being this fearless hero, yet they haven't had him suffer for it yet. He does seem tougher to get rid of than flies around shit.
good one.
Nah I was just joking bud. Agreed with most of what you said anyway. Just haven't caught up with you in a while. So i thought I'd irritate you
The last line may be true as well though
Hope you're well.
Except that one time when he was stabbed to death?
Brilliant analysis.
Apart from the time the only woman he ever loved was killed?
TBF nobody in England likes people from the South.
He was saved by a very selective dragon fire that burned everyone around him to a crisp, but somehow kept him in pristine condition.
Dothraki have to charge wildly into battle because thats what they do - it was entirely in keeping with their character (and also incredibly brave)
The battle this week was always going to be make or break for the living - if they lost this then basically it was all over for everybody so you might as well have ended the show. It was always going to come down to this one fight - either all the living were killed and the dead just went on south and killed what ever remains of armies there were and its over OR they get beaten in this battle. That's basically it really.
It didnt have to be a final last stand, they had thousands of horses at Winterfell ffs. It could have been explained that they were preparing for an assault on the Wall and had all of their weapons along it and so when the Dragon burst through the wall, they had to abandon most of what they had amassed. They could have shown us how poorly prepared they were at Winterfell for the siege, how surprised they were that they had a zombie dragon! Or that they had zombie Giants! (The survivors from Eastwatch should have spotted them) but nope.
It did though - look at it this way - they have several battles all the way going south - what happens? They lose because the fallen rise and bolster the armies of the dead whilst the living dwindle - they had to have one massive battle to try and defeat the NK otherwise they were doomed. Every battle they have creates more dead for the NK and at the same time dramatically reduces the number of the living.
Game of Thrones "The Long Night" of Disappointment
I edited my post btw.
Nah, it wasn't a last stand. For a start by killing white walkers that reduces the amount of beings that could raise the dead thereby making Night King more vunerable. Cersei still has (or should still have) a bucket ton of wildfire remaining. There are also far better castles to prepare for a zombie assault than Winterfell which has been shown time and time again to be a largely difficult castle to hold.
Ultimately they ran out of time to do anything with this plot line and it was probably very expensive to do with the zombie dragon/giants etc.
It was also never really made 100% clear if Dragonglass completely killed Wights (making them unable to be revived) but that could have been a clear and obvious plot point to reduce the numbers of wights. Having archers with Dragonglass arrows (no idea why we didnt see many) is kind of important in a siege.
So what happens to all the people in the land who happen to live north of the southern castles? They get wiped out and build a bigger army of the dead. They chose Winterfell as it was the most northerly castle to defend because they had to make a stand to avoid them coming further south.
Look at the numbers of dead they had already from just slaughtering all north of the wall and those from the wall to Winterfell. To let them rampage further south would have doubled/x3/x4 the numbers of dead in the NK army.
It makes total sense to me.
This is what ravens are for... they had plenty of time to prepare, they knew what was coming, they've been telling us for 8 Seasons. I don't actually think they had much army bolstered, the army was massive at the end of last season and they took out the Umbers and I assume raised the Dothraki. The Dothraki were a massive loss and gave a massive army boost hence why it was so daft they suicide charged (no matter the excuse).
I'm still adament that if Jon and Jorah had a 5 minute conversation pre battle they would have realised having the Dothraki on the front lines was a pretty dumb idea. Given Jorah knows their mentality and Jon has seen the Night King raise the dead at Hardhome.
It just reeks of the North being ill prepared, which would be fine if they had no idea what was coming or the time frame. But they knew both.
Felt bad for Theon.
I thought he was one of the most fascinating characters on the show. His whole life was full of inner conflict. Being born a Greyjoy but raised by the Starks and never feeling like he belonged anywhere. Did some terrible things trying to prove himself to the Ironborn, suffered horrible physical and psychological abuse at the hands of Ramsay, rescued Sansa, abandoned but then came back for his own sister and finally found his redemption, dying like a man and a warrior, protecting his home and family that raised him.
I thought his weaknesses and flaws made him a much more interesting character to follow than someone like Jon Snow, who's more of a Hollywood version of a 'good guy' fighting 'bad guys.'
I thought his weaknesses and flaws made him a much more interesting character to follow than someone like Jon Snow, who's more of a Hollywood version of a 'good guy' fighting 'bad guys.'
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Like I said before, they obviously wanted to get rid of the 2 big armies (Dothrakhi and Unsullied) early on and move the battle inside Winterfell for budget reasons. They could've done it in a better way, though.
How can Jon be useless ? He is the reason they all came together to fight the white walkers .
It wasn't until last season the lords of Westeros realized they were more than a fairytale, though. It's not like the people in general knew about this threat for 8 seasons, even in the north.
Aye thats my thinking too, so ultimately it was budget>plot. Shame, damn Zombie Dragon eating the budget!! We don't even get elephants!!
Well, Jon Snow was proclaimed King of the North a fairly long time ago now. He spent a bit of time at Winterfell before then moving over to Dragonstone where they spent enough time to mine all the Dragon Glass and then he went up to an Expedition North of the Wall, then travelled to Kings Landing before returning to Dragon Stone and then heading back up north to Winterfell. Within that time period there should have been enough time to order the North (he is King after all) to head to the South. Wouldn't of been a massive leap for Sansa to write to Ed Tully for example (her Uncle) and ask for the refugees to be kept safe at Riverrun/Twins. There are numerous ways it could have been, they had ample preparation time.
Now if it was made clear however that they were expecting a long siege at the Wall and put all their resources into that defense then it would make the situation a bit more understandable. But that wasn't made clear either. In fact, i'd say they made it more clear that they were having all resources focused on Winterfell rather than the Wall last season.
So normally I discuss this show after watching it, but when I came on after the live viewing on Sunday, there were already pages and pages of thread and didn’t bother reading them (it was 4am haha).
The next day there were already 30+ pages and Ive only caught up as I was interested to see what people thought and didn’t wanna repeat things.
One thing that is noticeable is how much the directors were not going to win when coming up with an ending or conclusion to most of these stories. From this thread you can see:
-Half wanted the battle with NK to end the show whilst half are glad its over with as they prefer the less fantasy stuff.
-Some are glad it was Arya, some wish it was Jon. But then some wanted them to lose and retreat to KL.
-From those who are happy it was Arya, some thought it made sense for her character the way it was done whilst some thought it was too easy.
-Some thought it was predictable and anticlimactic, and wanted major deaths (but then, if there were major deaths it would have been predictable that it happened?). Some were thrilled to the last minute.
The biggest thing is most all have differing opinions and some satisfaction is based on stuff happening the way it did (or didn’t happen)
(also the lighting issue, For me, one thing I noticed was the change in the way the episode was viewed on my mac vs TV vs bigger TV. My 70” inch TV, this episode was easy to follow. On my MAC, it was fine once I turned up brightness all the way.
My bedroom tv, HD and 43”, it was harder unless I closed curtains / turned off lights etc. But my first viewing sunday night was great so I didn’t even know some had issues until reading online)
With regards to the viewing, Im thinking about I felt for the episode as it was happening rather than watching it as a critic or thinking about it in hindsight. There are a few things I would have personally changed looking back, but overall it was an intense episode where it wasn’t that predictable what was going to happen. (Its easier to say it after the episode but so far I haven’t seen many saying ‘yeah, this is what I predicted before the episode’ and pointing to their posts.)
What you can see however is this show is huge, and whether people like the writing or not, its still fantastic viewing and a massive topic of discussion. I don’t remember a show being discussed like this since maybe Lost (and this is bigger in everyway possible).
Anyway, thats my random wall of text thoughts. Personally, I liked 99% of what they did with that episode. It was magnificent and I can’t wait for the next.
The next day there were already 30+ pages and Ive only caught up as I was interested to see what people thought and didn’t wanna repeat things.
One thing that is noticeable is how much the directors were not going to win when coming up with an ending or conclusion to most of these stories. From this thread you can see:
-Half wanted the battle with NK to end the show whilst half are glad its over with as they prefer the less fantasy stuff.
-Some are glad it was Arya, some wish it was Jon. But then some wanted them to lose and retreat to KL.
-From those who are happy it was Arya, some thought it made sense for her character the way it was done whilst some thought it was too easy.
-Some thought it was predictable and anticlimactic, and wanted major deaths (but then, if there were major deaths it would have been predictable that it happened?). Some were thrilled to the last minute.
The biggest thing is most all have differing opinions and some satisfaction is based on stuff happening the way it did (or didn’t happen)
(also the lighting issue, For me, one thing I noticed was the change in the way the episode was viewed on my mac vs TV vs bigger TV. My 70” inch TV, this episode was easy to follow. On my MAC, it was fine once I turned up brightness all the way.
My bedroom tv, HD and 43”, it was harder unless I closed curtains / turned off lights etc. But my first viewing sunday night was great so I didn’t even know some had issues until reading online)
With regards to the viewing, Im thinking about I felt for the episode as it was happening rather than watching it as a critic or thinking about it in hindsight. There are a few things I would have personally changed looking back, but overall it was an intense episode where it wasn’t that predictable what was going to happen. (Its easier to say it after the episode but so far I haven’t seen many saying ‘yeah, this is what I predicted before the episode’ and pointing to their posts.)
What you can see however is this show is huge, and whether people like the writing or not, its still fantastic viewing and a massive topic of discussion. I don’t remember a show being discussed like this since maybe Lost (and this is bigger in everyway possible).
Anyway, thats my random wall of text thoughts. Personally, I liked 99% of what they did with that episode. It was magnificent and I can’t wait for the next.
He wasn't in full plate armour vs Oberyn. Nor was he a zombie back then who supposedly doesn't feel pain or tire.
Also, the fight vs Oberyn was closer than people make out. He snapped his spear in two and a couple of times floored him.
If it had been a real fight on the battlefield, Oberyn likely dies after losing his weapon.
He was practically a kid then, and had little to no experience fighting someone with Tanner's style.
The show demonstrated he learned from that fight when he use Tanner's trick against the Thenn.
Heh so he needs full plate armor then? Why does it matter that it's on a battlefield?
Didn't know about the zombie part
From the looks of it Northern tactics seem to be to send your horses out to harass your enemy from the get go? Ramsay did it twice after all.
I meant more since he came back from the dead. He seems so much more reckless nowadays, almost like he doesn't care if he dies or not. I wish they had played up on this a bit more when he came back because it hasn't been mentioned since season 6. The time he had with Beric would have been a great opportunity for them to discuss what it's like coming back.
He doesn't NEED it, but he's nigh on invincible when he's wearing it right? His massive size gives him the ability to wear ridiculously thick/heavy armour which basically nothing can penetrate.
All I was saying was that Oberyn was fortunate he was fighting in a staged arena where he got given another weapon. He did very well against the Mountain and was obviously the vastly more skilled fighter, but against someone of that size .. one mistake and you're absolutely screwed.
You could be right, but Ramsey did it twice for different reasons.
Ramsey knew Stannis' army was small knackered, hungry and had no cavalry. So rather than allowing him to prepare (Stannis was famed for being a great tactician) Ramsey attacked immediately. With Battle of the Bastards he had Jon cornered. Sent in his cavalry to kill the commander who was stranded on foot a long distance away from the rest of his foot soldiers (and Giant). He was a smart bastard. But both times Ramsey had the numbers over his opponent.
Also, we know that at least one of the Northern Houses were skilled ground troops (see Battle of the Bastards).
There's simply no room for emotions during battle. Just get the job done and leave the confession part to those whacky high sept nuns.