Television Game of Thrones (TV) • The watch has ended

[Irrational.]

Did he know at the time what she was going to do with it?

Spoiler

His reaction looks odd in hindsight.

Didn't Arya give the dagger to Sansa or did I dream that? If so, how did she get it back?

I quite enjoyed the episode. The build-up over the last two episodes was worth it. Expecting another filler episode before the battle and the concluding last episode.

I don't get the excessive over-the-top snobbish moaning from the book nerds. GRRM has made a mess which he is in no rush to tidy up, and most likely will never tidy up. They should be mad at him, not the people who make the show, who are trying their best to sort out this massive clusterfeck in six episodes. Unlike GRRM, they don't have fifty billion pages of manuscript to write and they need to tie up all the loose ends whilst still keeping fans/ interest maximised as much as possible.

I think they've done a marvellous job.

 

[Moiraine]

Don't think you'll find one person who thinks that was a poor episode, just when people have calmed down and look at the storytelling objectively you'll understand that having the Whitewalkers die like that at this stage after 8 seasons of build up was rather... tame. It's great for the casual viewer no doubt who doesn't really give a shite about the story. But I mean cmon, the end was dumb as feck, it also became very obvious two thirds of the way through that episode that the Night King would die because there was zero chance for any of the characters to retreat. That killed all the tension for me in the final third of the episode.


Tell me one great battle (either a real life event or a movie event) where the battle is NOT turned on its head just when the main characters had their backs to the walls and defeat was certain. Take the battles of LOTR for example, they were on the same pattern, so was battle of the bastards. Why are we so critical of this in particular when we enjoyed the others and written endless praises for them.

 

[villain]

Arya's blood made more noise than her navigating through the library, with that logic, it makes sense that she was able to sneak up and attack from the shadows.

Can't wait to rewatch the episode again tonight, thought it was fantastic.

Also - just how useless is Danaerys?

 

[stepic]

Didn't Arya give the dagger to Sansa or did I dream that? If so, how did she get it back?

I quite enjoyed the episode. The build-up over the last two episodes was worth it.

I don't get the excessive over-the-top snobbish moaning from the book nerds. GRRM has made a mess which he is in no rush to tidy up, and most likely will never tidy up. They should be mad at him, not the people who make the show, who are trying their best to sort out this massive clusterfeck in six episodes. Unlike GRRM, they don't have fifty billion pages of manuscript to write and they need to tie up all the loose ends whilst still keeping fans/ interest maximised as much as possible.

I think they've done a marvellous job.

yep, agree with this. anyone who moans about the drop in writing quality needs to blame Martin, not D&D. people completely underestimate the difficulty in what they're trying to do, especially with this story, when they no doubt have studio execs breathing down their neck. i'm sure they'd love to take 2 or 3 years out and make sure everything is perfect like those criticising them seem to be expecting.

 

[dumbo]

The Night King I loved as an idea and the foreshadowing of him and his army in the early seasons was great. None of that felt delivered upon. If you wanted to make him a generic villain that served simply as a plot point on the road map to blandsville then fine. I just wish that we weren't missold his character and the thematic undercurrents for so long and so well. Did they even bother to write a contrived route for Arya to arrive before the Night King? She seemed to just appeared from nowhere and single handedly wiped out another story strand.

 

[Skills]

He resurrected the dead "good guys" though. Not the dead dead.

The point of it was to not risk a duel against someone with the means to kill him.

He was resurrecting the ones who'd been killed during the battle I think, not the ones who'd already been dead and were then burned.

Okay fair enough. I still liked the idea of seeing some of the shows greatest warriors taking on some white walkers. The likes of Jaime, Brienne, Grey Worm and the Hound getting a chance to face off some whitewalkers would've made some great TV.

 

[GhastlyHun]

I love how everyone gets upset at the logic side and characters acting irrationally. On the one side they were fighting a large scale battle at night tired and defeated, how any of them in that situation would have a chance to think instead of just reacting is beyond me. If that's still isn't enough or you that they weren't thinking cleverly and acting smart and it was unrealistic to you. It's a show about dragons fighting zombies for fecks sake.

No. That's what it has become. It used to be a fantasy rendition of the war of the roses, in addition to keeping the scots (white walkers) out of the country (in a slight reversal of historic events), with added dragons and zombies. Dragons and zombies haven't played a central role in any of the finished novels, and only started to take over in season 7 of the show.

 

[Irrational.]

Also, Lyanna Mormont showed bigger balls in that episode than the Hound, and also showed a novel way to kill WWs - jab him in the eye.

 

[Cheesy]

Okay fair enough. I still liked the idea of seeing some of the shows greatest warriors taking on some white walkers. The likes of Jaime, Brienne, Grey Worm and the Hound getting a chance to face off some whitewalkers would've made some great TV.

Aye, was definitely quite poor that they basically stood there and did nothing the whole time. If it'd been their approach to basically wait it out until all the living were dead then it'd be understandable, but they were advancing through Winterfell so leaving one or two to fight would've made some sense. Especially since Jaime/Brienne both have the Stark Valyrian steel swords. Strange not to put them to use.

 

[do.ob]

There's very little on your list that is incoherent or illogical.

Can you really not get why you might, for instance, hide people in a secure underground structure in your fortified building when being attacked by an army? I'm not sure why you think using the firewall to try to stop the enemy getting to the walls is illogical and surely you're just being obtuse regarding the Sansa comment? As for Arya, and this criticism has come up a few times, I'm not sure why the magic, shape changing, super assassin stealth attacking someone is surprising people so much.

I do think the dragonfire resistance was pretty inconsistent against internal logic, but they do have something of an unconvincing (It's magic!") get out card. That's not how I'd have used a cavalry, but it's not inconsistent with standard Dothraki "run at them like a lunatic" tactics I don't think.

The writing has certainly had its flaws for some time, but I think a good chunk of your points above are a little unfair.

I know that I'm being deliberately hash, but still:

Why would the crypts be more secure than say some cellar or having them retreat behind Winterfell? Why didn't any character even raise the possibility which half the caf users spottet instantly?
-> They needed it to be the crypts, because they had that dead come out of the walls moment in mind. Fair enough. But was it too much to ask to have someone raise the concern just be overruled?

The Dothraki rode into darkness because they wanted that lights going out one by one moment. Fair enough. But was it too much to ask to set it up properly, for example by painting it as some Dothraki impulse due to their lack of tactical discipline?

The firewall was a great trap, let the dead come at you then light it to split their forces in half. But what was the logic behind it's use in the show? Buying time until the daylight? Then why only use it after taking significant losses? Why not have the dragons burn the dead who stood waiting at the fire? -> They wanted their "oh shit" moment and they apparently cared very little about the way it was delivered.

Arya somehow walks up to them and takes this huge leap at him without anyone reacting. If her powers are indeed that strong then the only logical conclusion to the show is to have her stealth kill Cersei without anymore peasant blood being shed. But somehow I believe that as conveniently as her powers appeared to kill the night king just in time they will conveniently be gone when it comes to dealing with Cersei.

 

[Djemba-Djemba]

No. That's what it has become. It used to be a fantasy rendition of the war of the roses, in addition to keeping the scots (white walkers) out of the country (in a slight reversal of historic events), with added dragons and zombies. Dragons and zombies haven't played a central role in any of the finished novels, and only started to take over in season 7 of the show.

Well will they not play a big role in the books? If they ever get released?

I do feel some sympathy for the Game of Thrones showrunners to be honest. I'm sure when they took on the job they assumed they'd just be adapting the books to TV and that GRRM would have finished the story by now.

Instead it's been 8 years without any further books in the saga and they've had to just sort out the mess themselves. It's not been perfect and I'm sure if GRRM had finished the story himself it would have made for better TV but they had to do something.

It's fairly clear I think GRRM will never finish the story, there's too many problems for him to grind through.

 

[Gambit]

No. That's what it has become. It used to be a fantasy rendition of the war of the roses, in addition to keeping the scots (white walkers) out of the country (in a slight reversal of historic events), with added dragons and zombies. Dragons and zombies haven't played a central role in any of the finished novels, and only started to take over in season 7 of the show.

Yes it is. The whole purpose of the show was to build up to an epic battle between the dead and the living and Dragons and it's the same in the books. Things that were in the show throughout. It's not like they've ever hidden that fact. Something that has been said many times over is more important than all their little rivalries. Anyway all the miserable sods should be happy now. That part of the story is over. Time to get back to everyone talking again each episode which everyone on here complains about all the time as well. Just because GRRM found inspiration in history for the plot doesn't mean the show is and always was about Zombies and Dragons. The very opening scene of the first episode featured the zombies.

 

[dumbo]

The Dothraki charge worked for me. Attempting to bring fire and light to the frozen darkness really works on a symbolic level, but even strategically it's not too far fetched when you look at things like Gallipoli or Boudica. Ho hum.

 

[Hammerfell]

My eyes are tired from all the rolling they’re doing at people whining.

 

[harms]

Why hide in the crypts against the dead?
Because it's the safest place in the castle and it's where people go during a siege. Seems weird that they didn't thought of the remains though (or that those bones could've been reanimated into something even remotely dangerous)
Why stand outside the walls of Winterfell against an overwhelming enemy?
It was all a ruse intended to waste enough time before NK gets to Bran. This way they wasted more time.
Why does half the army charge alone into pitch darkness before the battle even begins?
Because they don't know how to fight another way? It's been covered before. They are quite useless in Westeros, as Sir Friendzone noted in the first season.
Why do both dragon riders wait for Brienne to cry in pain before burning the dead?
Perhaps they were expecting NK to get there before the main event.
Why light the firewall after your defenses have been broken? Why not split the enemy?
Again, time-wasting.
Why can Melisandre light thousands of Swords like it's no big thing, but struggles with firewood?
Because NK summoned the freezing snowstorm that fecked up the arrows in the first place. When she fired up those arakhs there weren't any rival magic around yet.
Where were the dragons while the army of the dead just AFK'd at the firewall?
Weren't they lost in the snowstorm at the time? I'm not sure
If Bran was your bait why leave him with just a couple of Ironborn?
Jon and Dany were supposed to kill him with their dragons once he was lured to their trap. You don't put your best men openly in the trap, it's not how traps work.
Why doesn't Sansa know how daggers work?
Legitimate question.
Why does Dany's dragon just keel over when a couple of Zombies attack it?
She was on it, so it had to wait for her to get/fall off.
How does Arya get past all the dead and WW to land the blow?
The biggest plot hole yet.
Why is the NK immune to dragonfire but shatters against "dragon steel"?
Again, very weird. Perhaps he's a Targarien (hence why he is able to ride the dragon)... but it doesn't really stick up with the dragonglass and Valyrian steel that was forged in a dragon fire. That's a shit scene.

 

[GhastlyHun]

Well will they not play a big role in the books? If they ever get released?

Sure, they will have their time. The story at its core however is about feudalism and patriarchy how they aren't good for the majority of people. Yet this is another field where the show's writing completely fails. D&D's idea of adapting GRRM's feminist tendencies is having girls slaying giants and superpowerful, yet conveniently easily killable zombies.

 

[TheSamulator]

I'm just a bit disappointed that it seems like we've missed an opportunity to learn more about the Night King to be honest. Thought there was going to be some kind of interaction with Bran right at the end there but alas, looks like that opportunity has passed.

A few things seemed a bit daft as well (seemed pathetically stupid how Dany just sits there and gets pulled off the dragon, Arya stealthing and flying out of nowhere, some of the battle decisions) but to be honest, it's fantasy isn't it? So just try and switch the brain off for those kinds of things and enjoy the experience i guess. I'm certainly interested to see how they conclude things now though as i had kind of assumed the Night King/White Walkers storyline would take more than just this episode to wrap up.

 

[KirkDuyt]

I'm typing this without looking at the thread. I can't watch it until tomorrow because my wife booked us (yes us) a pregnancy training course for 5 mondays which will take up the whole evening. I'm scared to check the post for typos.

 

[Hammerfell]

I'm typing this without looking at the thread. I can't watch it until tomorrow because my wife booked us (yes us) a pregnancy training course for 5 mondays which will take up the whole evening. I'm scared to check the post for typos.

You risked venturing in here to post this?!

 

[diarm]

How do you all know so much about what happened?

I watched from about 3 feet away from a massive 4k, HDR tv and I couldn't see anything.

From what I could make out, the two living dragons got owned by the one blue fecker and Greyworm shit the bed while his unsullied buddies were manning up and sacrificing themselves so all the heroes could flee behind the walls with their tails between their legs.

Mellisandre kind of looked like a white walker as she was collapsing and dying without the necklace. Could she have been around since the very beginning of the Night King and was staying alive just for this battle?

What was the story with Theon, after killing 200 wights like a badass, losing his shit and trying to polevault the Night King? In fact, the whole episode was full of idiots charging off into the darkness when staying where they were would've been the better option.

I enjoyed it like I enjoy the occasional episode of The Walking Dead or watching the Lord of the Rings. Everything that made Game of Thrones different has been long forgotten.

 

[roonster09]

Are you fecking serious you absolute cnut. I haven't watched Endgame you dick head.

I will be watching end game in another 4 hours, that posted messed it for me

 

[Djemba-Djemba]

Sure, they will have their time. The story at its core however is about feudalism and patriarchy how they aren't good for the majority of people. Yet this is another field where the show's writing completely fails. D&D's idea of adapting GRRM's feminist tendencies is having girls slaying giants and superpowerful, yet conveniently easily killable zombies.

Well it seems strange to moan about too many zombies and Dragons in the show when it's likely to be the same in the books, if they ever get finished.

Which they won't.

I do think you can tell a noticeable drop in quality once they outpaced the books, I think that's fair to say. I'm still really enjoying it though and like I said I think the showrunners are making the absolute best of a bad situation.

 

[OutlawGER]

I knew Arya would be the one to kill the NK. Otherwise her whole jouney, to become a massive assassine, would have been senseless. Said that last week to my friends already when we were asking who will be the one. Most of them thought it will be Jon or even Sam.

I enjoyed the episode, it was good, but somehow i am a little disappointed. The whole series was built for this war. I think just 1 episode, even if a bit longer than usual, is a bit shorter than i expected the war to be. Also it was quite easy to expect what will happen. They are going to lose the war, many main characters are close to die and then the NK gets killed (by Arya, as expected by me) out of nowhere to safe them all.

Its a bit difficult to get excited for the last 3 episodes now, as the most important guns were shot today. But i wonder how they want to fight Cercei now? Didn't they lose basically the whole army including Dotrhaki, Insullied, Northmen and a Dragon? (Jons died, right?)

 

[Mr Pigeon]

Loved it, although if it had any more death fake outs then I would have been pissed off. Everyone and their dog expected the Night King to win or go one on one with Jon and instead our expectations were subverted in what is at least a believable way - super sneaky assassin putting a blade in the same place where the children of the forest stuffed the dragonglass into him.

Some more character deaths would have been nice but if only to thin the herd a little, I don't think you needed to see gratuitous deaths purely for the sake of shock in an episode that was end to end stressful and unending.

Also, it had more named character deaths than the Battle of Helm's Deep so everything is fine.

 

[Ahsan_6386]

He even said later on he edited that post, nothing. What an absolute prick, hope he gets banned for that shit. Dumb feck.

No need to abuse ...I made a mistake and just deleted the post .

 

[dumbo]

Sure, they will have their time. The story at its core however is about feudalism and patriarchy how they aren't good for the majority of people. Yet this is another field where the show's writing completely fails. D&D's idea of adapting GRRM's feminist tendencies is having girls slaying giants and superpowerful, yet conveniently easily killable zombies.

I think they've done a major disservice to the shows female characters. Early seasons there was some real exploration of independent female experiences and what it means to be a girl or woman in this fantasy world and by extension our world. There is no harm in showing some girl power stuff; kicking guys in the nuts etc. but when it is done all the time, and all the time at the expense of genuine character exploration and relatable experience I think it's a small fecking travesty quite frankly.

 

[roonster09]

He even said later on he edited that post, nothing. What an absolute prick, hope he gets banned for that shit. Dumb feck.

Think it's by mistake, trying to post a clever joke.

Anyways on GoT, can't wait for next episode. The political drama was the most interesting part for me, so now it's like back to season 1.

 

[villain]

I think they've done a major disservice to the shows female characters. Early seasons there was some real exploration of independent female experiences and what it means to be a girl or woman in this fantasy world and by extension our world. There is no harm in showing some girl power stuff; kicking guys in the nuts etc. but when it is done all the time, and all the time at the expense of genuine character exploration and relatable experience I think it's a small fecking travesty quite frankly.

What relatable experience as a woman do you have, to suggest that it's now a travesty?

 

[Ahsan_6386]

Think it's by mistake, trying to post a clever joke.

Anyways on GoT, can't wait for next episode. The political drama was the most interesting part for me, so now it's like back to season 1.

I am extremely sorry for runining it for you . I have deleted the post and yes it was just a joke.

 

[Mr Pigeon]

I don't know what you cnuts expected....it was always going to come down something like that happening in order to save everyone.....they were getting overrun much like the United side we see week in week out. The only question was how would it happen. After show said they knew it would be Arya for the last three years.

This is the thing - there is absolutely no other way they could defeat the Night King. The alternative was everyone in Westeros becoming undead which isn't a "realistic outcome", it's just shit edgelord story telling.

 

[roonster09]

I am extremely sorry for runining it for you . I have deleted the post and yes it was just a joke.

No problem mate, usually I dont care about these things.

 

[Bubz27]

The firewall was a great trap, let the dead come at you then light it to split their forces in half. But what was the logic behind it's use in the show? Buying time until the daylight? Then why only use it after taking significant losses? Why not have the dragons burn the dead who stood waiting at the fire? -> They wanted their "oh shit" moment and they apparently cared very little about the way it was delivered.

Arya somehow walks up to them and takes this huge leap at him without anyone reacting. If her powers are indeed that strong then the only logical conclusion to the show is to have her stealth kill Cersei without anymore peasant blood being shed. But somehow I believe that as conveniently as her powers appeared to kill the night king just in time they will conveniently be gone when it comes to dealing with Cersei.

Daenarys couldn't even see the signal to light the firewall. By that point, even if it was planned, the dragons couldn't go and burn all the WWs. They didn't expect that snow storm to come and render the dragons useless. The flames were extinguishing instantly. Otherwise Id imagine the plan was to burn all of them.

Nothings confirmed but I think the white walkers follow orders. They not wild thoughtless creatures. When NK resurrected them around Jon, they didn't go crazy on him. They honed on and went slowly. When the firetrap was set, the initially ran straight into it, but stopped. Started again once NK flew over on his dragon. He'd clearly given the command to create walkovers in the fire. Some dead sacrificed themselves so others could walk over them. Point is they listen, or follow orders. Not spoken, maybe they just follow NKs will.

So with that, he'd clearly given the order to not do anything when they were surrounding Bran. He wanted/needed to do whatever it was he was going to do.

Also, it's a TV show. There'll always be plot holes to help the story progress. I said earlier, enjoy it for what it is or keep moaning. Those are the only choices from here.

 

[dumbo]

What relatable experience as a woman do you have, to suggest that it's now a travesty?

What travesty do you have that is in anyway relatable? try that why don't you?

 

[ha_rooney]

Brilliant episode. The tension was fantastic throughout.

Arya's character arc has been my favourite since the series started so I'm delighted she was the one who killed the NK. Lyanna Mormont - what a fecking legend she was.

Now for Cersei...

 

[GhastlyHun]

Well it seems strange to moan about too many zombies and Dragons in the show when it's likely to be the same in the books, if they ever get finished.

Which they won't.

I do think you can tell a noticeable drop in quality once they outpaced the books, I think that's fair to say. I'm still really enjoying it though and like I said I think the showrunners are making the absolute best of a bad situation.

My response was against the idea that the point of the show was dragons fighting zombies, when ~80% of it (and an even bigger percentage of the books) is concerned with civil war and political scheming. In a way, I'm glad they disposed of the white walkers so easily, so we can have an epilogue centered on the civil war and the questions of dynasty and succession. Let's see what they make of it.


And yeah, the show runners did have to bring this to their own end due to GRRM's complete lack of progress with writing, but many of the turns and short cuts they have taken deserve criticism nevertheless.

 

[harms]

Nothings confirmed but I think the white walkers follow orders. They not wild thoughtless creatures. When NK resurrected them around Jon, they didn't go crazy on him. They honed on and went slowly. When the firetrap was set, the initially ran straight into it, but stopped. Started again once NK flew over on his dragon. He'd clearly given the command to create walkovers in the fire. Some dead sacrificed themselves so others could walk over them. Point is they listen, or follow orders. Not spoken, maybe they just follow NKs will.

So with that, he'd clearly given the order to not do anything when they were surrounding Bran. He wanted/needed to do whatever it was he was going to do.

You confuse white walkers with resurrected dead. Dead follow orders, Walkers had been shown quite a few times and they have their own will (and the dead that they turned personally follow their will and die when they die). In Godswood he was surrounded by white walkers, who should've been able to see and stop Arya — unless she somehow stole one of their faces, which would've been ridiculously hard if even possible (probably not).

 

[ha_rooney]

Spoiler: Speculation for Cersei

I reckon now she's got the upper-hand with troop numbers, she's going to go on a killing rampage which eventually leads to Jamie killing her, like how he did the Mad King.

 

[RedSky]

unless she somehow stole one of their faces, which would've been ridiculously hard if even possible (probably not).

Don't think that is possible given they all marched into Winterfell together. She'd had to have taken one as they walked in without any of them noticing. Also, they shatter when they die...

 

[Eboue]

what if braniel was remote desktoping into the ice king (pbuh)?

 

[dumbo]

Nerd alert.