This. Jon snow literally knows nothing and is far too emotional to be a leader of men.
Television Game of Thrones (TV) • The watch has ended
- Thread starter ha_rooney
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This. Jon snow literally knows nothing and is far too emotional to be a leader of men.
Agreed. Note the Blackfish approach in the previous episode (forget the unanticipated outcome). That is the approach of a so called "legendary commander" and the show is linking these 2 incidents together to show us that Jon is a great guy but not a battle commander.
edit: perhaps sansa might also question Jons will to live. Pre battle he didn't seem that bothered about dieing and almost seemed to welcome it. When he rose out of that pit of bodies it's sort of a new lease of life for him.
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Jon is a bit of an idiot and gives in way too much to his emotions, I thought the show had established this long ago though?
Nobody has said it was a clever thing to do though. Not every leader or person on the show has to be some smart tactician that shows no emotion or ever give a shit about the people they care about. That scene and battle summed up who Jon Snow is and I fecking love it to be perfectly honest.
The soundtrack to this episode was insane.
1.Please, this is the moment where the show demonstrated Sansa's development as a character. Influence by the trauma she's endured so far and moulded by Littlefinger. She is now a calculating and manipulative player and active participant in the game of thrones (though I think she'd just settle for Winterfell). She beat/shit all over Ramsey and if it wasn't for her Jon would have lost and died, Sansa would have been pursued, captured and eventually killed. Also, all the direwolves names are symbolic:
Greywind (A strong but brief force of nature) - Rob Starks life
Summer - Summer being killed represents Winter destroying summer
Shaggydog - A narrative that builds up to a pointless conclusion i.e. a "shaggydog story" describes the life of Rickon.
Ghost - Jon has been a ghost all his life and could technically be a ghost as he's been brought back from the dead.
Nymeria (Arya's direwolf) is a book character and I understand book details are forbidden so I'll leave that one out.
Lady - The lady side of Sansa was killed, foreshadowing Sansas transformation from a helpless and naïve Lady into a political mastermind. Now completed
2. A handful of archers almost took down Wun Wun. You really think Thousands of archers and spearmen on the walls of Winterfell couldn't bring him down?
Jon is the character that everyone wants to get behind because his approach is the most glorious and "honourable" if that word can be used in any context. But the whole idea of GoT (the books and the show) is that being a good warrior and honourable doesn't win you wars.
Good post and I like the Direwolves comparison to their owner.
I think people are spending waaaay too much time to find flaws in that episode. It was nothing like the previous one where the obvious flaws stuck out (and was rightfully bashed as one of the worst eps of the season if not series). Some moments were laughable but the one positive was that it progressed some stories which badly needed it (ie Arya).
Yes, Jon got manipulated by a master manipulator, guess it just shows Jon Snow is far from perfect and still immature in many ways. As is Sansa.
If every person in the show acted and reacted in the exact way they are "supposed to" then there really would be no story at all. People feck up. Make mistakes. Others take advantage of those mistakes.
This is a work of fiction, but if you look at reality, history is full of people who despite having many good qualities made bad decisions or got out smarted by someone else. Shit happens.
AT this point I think more than a few watch it ONLY to find something to complain about. This is getting like the Walking Dead thread, where you start to wonder why people are even bothering to watch the show.
Thankfully this show is nowhere near the levels of TWD, although Dorne and the Snakes could have easily fit in that show :P
Also the scene with Tormund and Davos saying hes not a king and they dont need a king. JS is a flawed character who wasnt built for leading but has been thrust into it due to circumstances. Hes a warrior who people will follow though.
Hopefully, whilst Littlefinger is basking in the glory of victory, planning his ascension, Sansa tells him he is far too manipulative and dangerous to be around, as the poisoned chalice falls from his hand while he chokes.
That would be hilarious.
Also dont think Sansa is evil like most are saying. Shes just wiser now, and looks like shes "playing" the game of thrones.
There are always flaws in any show. They are fun to pick out but they didn't in anyway make me enjoy the episode less.
Rickon shouldn't have ran in a straight line though.
Flaws can be there and sometimes they are just made purely by assumption and guesswork as to a backstory. Rickon is 8 years old locked up in a dungeon for months and has just seen his first friendly face and family member for god knows how long. It's not unrealistic to assume he'd just run straight for Jon.There are always flaws in any show. They are fun to pick out but they didn't in anyway make me enjoy the episode less.
Rickon shouldn't have ran in a straight line though.
Also, even if he did zig zag Ramsey would have just got a volley of arrows from his men to bring him down. There was no way Ramsey would ever lt Rickon live.
Rickon shouldn't have ran in a straight line though.
Thought the same thing. Also Ramsey should have killed Jon Snow first and then bothered with Rickon
And if Rickon did survive by running zig zag, we would be moaning about how an evil bastard like Ramsey let him slip like that.
I love the show but it does irritate me sometimes, surely they could have found time for a scene with Rickon and Ramsey inside W.F. I mean even showing 4 mins of screen time with Ramsey and Rickon would have satisfied me. Did Rickon even have any lines this season? also who else thought Tormund and Davos were goners last ep, so glad they are still knocking about.
also who else thought Tormund and Davos were goners last ep, so glad they are still knocking about.The show has been going for 6 years. There is no way he was 2 when the show started. I take it that the events have happened over many years not just a few months. It would take years to ride back and forth across a continent the way they have over the duration of the series.
Thought the same thing. Also Ramsey should have killed Jon Snow first and then bothered with Rickon
Yeah but I think we can just assume a fair bit of panic on Rickon's part and he is still very young. then if he runs in a predictable pattern Ramsey holes him anyway.
Thought the same thing. Also Ramsey should have killed Jon Snow first and then bothered with Rickon
Except it fits in more with his character to kill Rickon first. As Sansa pointed out, he likes to make people suffer. So he kills Rickon right as he gets close to Jon, which Jon then reacts to with his ill conceived charge. This plays into the strength in numbers that Ramsey had, allowing the battle to be fought on Ramsey's terms with his army holding the initiative. If not for the Vale army, Ramsey's plan would have worked perfectly
How does it matter when the show started in television?
It's not when it started as much as how long it's been running. Everybody in the show is 6 years older than they were when the show started. Where did you get the idea he is 8 from? If it's the books you are posting it in the wrong thread.
I didn't even post that. Everybody isn't 6 years older in the show because it started 6 years back.
. In real life the are.How long has gone in the show then? It's not 10 minutes after King Robert turned up in Winterfell.I didn't even post that. Everybody isn't 6 year older in the show because it started 6 years back.
As I have said in my post people have rode horses backwards and forwards across continents you don't do that in 10 minutes, that takes years.
Again where did you get fact that Ricon is 8 from? His age hasn't come up in the show in the last couple of years. Sounds seriously like book knowledge to me.
How long has gone in the show then? It's not 10 minutes after King Robert turned up in Winterfell.
As I have said in my post people have rode horses backwards and forwards across continents you don't do that in 10 minutes, that takes years.
Again where did you get fact that Ricon is 8 from? His age hasn't come up in the show in the last couple of years. Sounds seriously like book knowledge to me.
Which part of 'I didn't even post that' did you not get? Ask whoever mentioned he is 8 years old. I dunno how long it has gone in the show but it certainly makes zero sense that Ricon was 2 years old when the show started assuming he is 8 years old now just because the TV show is 6 years old.
Okay sorry I got my posters crossed. I thought that you were the person I was responding to. I didn't check back in my posts to see it wasn't.
Now as for why I am taking it that 6 years has passed in the show. We have a program that started with young actors who have grown up over the coarse of the show. We have seen children turn into young adults. The only way this makes sense is if the character has aged at the same rate or a similar rate as the actor. If Bran, Ricon, Arya and the rest are only supposed to be a few months older than when the show started then it has lost all attempt at plausibility.
BTW how much time do you think has past in the show? Why is thinking 6 years so unreasonable?
That episode was fecking incredible. I'm actually going to watch it again tonight. I'm struggling to think of a better battle scene on film or TV - Opening scene of Saving Private Ryan possibly.
The making of is well worth a watch. Fascinating stuff:
The making of is well worth a watch. Fascinating stuff:
Did anyone notice that at the end of the episode when sansa was getting ready to make dog food out of Ramsey she reminds him that he said he didn't feed his hounds for 7 days, but when he said that she'd already went off on the horse when the writers can make errors like that is it any wonder they don't care about the unrealistic way they make characters such as LF go from one place to another.
when the writers can make errors like that is it any wonder they don't care about the unrealistic way they make characters such as LF go from one place to another.Alright mate. I don't think it's unreasonable. I just found the conviction that it must be the same as the years passed since the first season strange. Frankly, I have no clue. I can't recollect references to timelines in the show that exactly point these out. 4-6 would be my guess.
Right, because there's no way someone could have ... told her that?Did anyone notice that at the end of the episode when sansa was getting ready to make dog food out of Ramsey she reminds him that he said he didn't feed his hounds for 7 days, but when he said that she'd already went off on the horse
Well she did not claim she heard him say it did she?Did anyone notice that at the end of the episode when sansa was getting ready to make dog food out of Ramsey she reminds him that he said he didn't feed his hounds for 7 days, but when he said that she'd already went off on the horse
Edmure said the red wedding was 2 years ago at Riverun. I'd make that a max 3 years since the beginning (probably closer to 2) and Rickon was 6 at the beginning of the show. For clarity I know we get carried away but actor Art Parkinson is not actually Rickon Stark
I also reckon Art didn't get much screen time because he's taller than Iwan Reon (Ramsey), so it wouldn't really look that intimidating...
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Did anyone notice that at the end of the episode when sansa was getting ready to make dog food out of Ramsey she reminds him that he said he didn't feed his hounds for 7 days, but when he said that she'd already went off on the horse
So you don't think Jon or anyone else could have told her that after the battle? Sorry if that spoilt the show for you.
Or even before the battle.
Yeah of course, i get that. But its the night before a battle and I doubt that Ramsey's antagonistic threats would have been the number one talking point that night. But yeah, someone could have told her.
Jon Snow, emotional idiot he might be, must now be somewhat of a legend in Westeros. I thought that scene of him facing down the whole of Ramsey's army by himself was beautiful cinematography.
I just hope he wises up a little, gets a bit darker and goes of with Melisandre. I can't see him and Littlefinger cohabiting too well.
I just hope he wises up a little, gets a bit darker and goes of with Melisandre. I can't see him and Littlefinger cohabiting too well.
Who said it would be the number one talking point.
I agree that 4-6 would be reasonable.
I was trying to put across the point that there was no way he could be 8 now given how old the actor looked at the start and the amount of time that must have transpired over the course of the show. I might have come across as saying that exactly 6 years had passed but that was not my intent. I was questioning the idea that he was 8 years old now in the show.
Ok. Jesus lads
I was just trying to show off that I found a minor plot hole. I'll shut up now.