in what way?
Gabriel Obertan | 2010/11 Performances
- Thread starter Stojan Stamenic
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in what way?
Opinions can certainly change over time, but why make such passionate and formed ones after so few games or such a small length of time. Maybe we shouldn't write players off after a year or a similarly small period, which is my actual point throughout this. Yes it's a forum, and people are free to write whatever they like within reason, I'm not disputing that, but that doesn't justify some of the rubbish that gets posted about players.
Again, I'm not pointing fingers or having a go at people because they doubt Obertan, but criticizing as a whole how a lot of people perceive a players ability, and the time frame they give them before they judging on it. As Fergie said, it's not realistic, and we could save ourselves the hassle by not doing it.
It's not always down to management and staff to get it out, as you put it. Sometimes players have to take responsibility and prove it themselves.It's not as if he's an immature 16 year old
Very original.
For every he "ripped" Wolfsberg moment there has been other terrible performances. Inept displays considering the raw tools he has. Given his age, what happened at his former club, the doubts raised by Blanc these are all little things that surely add weight to the argument against him.
2nd bit doesnt make any sense. So what if people didnt rate Nani, we arent talking about him here.
Attending games does stand for something if you actually have a clue about football which Datura obviously does.
Have a read of the reserve forum......
edit... also I didnt call you an idiot I said your comment on Welbeck and Cleverley was idiotic which still stands....
My point was that to say that one 22 year old player who hasn't played much is more talented than another 20 year old player who hasn't played much is a daft call to make under any circumstances. Playing favourites is what it seems to boil down to.
Yeah I watched the game against Chelski, they were in the middle of a torrid run but yeah Welbeck was quality. I still don't see the world beater talent in him which I do with Obertan. But..... and it's a big but, Van Nistelrooy and many other world beaters didn't look to have that talent either, Quaresma did and well....
My only point was that I think Obertan has all the talent in the world.
It isn't at all daft, it's just opinion, and stop taking it as such a negative, it isn't.
It's got nothing to do with what I 'like to remember', and yea I probably overstated it by saying only at reserve level, but he's not done enough at first team level to convince me he's capable of playing at that level with any regularity. Not yet anyway. Contrast that to Welbeck and Celeverley who, for my money, have shown more consistency and have proven themselves to be 'premier league players.
I'm not saying Obertan definitely won't make it, but at this point right now Cleverley and Welbeck are better placed.
But it isn't, as I have said the performances aren't necessarily reflective of talent, more so of a mesh between talent, physicality and more importantly mentality.
As a comparison I would say Berbatov is our most talented player, which is a point I have made several times, his mentality means he doesn't always show his talent.
Because you say he has a clue? wtf
My point still stands, going to games mean nish pish if you don't understand football or can't judge talent. My belief is that playing football at a high level generally gives you a better understand to judge talent.
If I listed the players people have told me are going to be diamonds from our reserves, well....
Better placed to what? make it as Premiership players?
Yes.
Second part made every sense. Posters who attend lots of reserve games were writing Nani off just 1 year ago. Of course that relates to the situation here, well unless it doesn't match your argument and then it's probably best to dismiss it as you did.
Oh ok, well yeah I agree with that, how could I not.
I was told that Obertan and Walcott were on the same level at the weekend, I was genuinely lost for words at that
I would be too, technically they aren't even from the same planet.
My view is that since the class of Giggs/Scholes you can dismiss anything that occurs in the reserves when taking into account relevance to how they will be in the first team.
But your Obertan "Wow" moment seems to be this:
Which was great work, albeit against a poor defence, and against Villa, which, I must admit nothing sticks in mind from.
Welbeck "Wow" moments on par with that:
Cleverly "wow" moment, just as impressive as Obertan against Wolfsburg and against just as poor a defence:
It just seems that the entire basis of people's stance on Obertan being a star in the making boils down to that one moment for us. That's fine to have that kind of faith, but you could be saying the same about Welbeck and Cleverly on a similar basis of one or two moments in a handful of games. You could say the same about a number of other players. Why people are playing one against the other is what I don't understand. If he makes it, great, if they all make it, fantastic. Some will, some won't, but I don't see the need to play sides.
You'd better believe it!
Ok Im gonna slow this down a little for you
you said...
"I know a right bunch of clueless twats who 1 year ago told me Nani was dogturd, and they attend lots of ressies matches and every 1st team game"
you then said...
"Posters who attend lots of reserve games were writing Nani off just 1 year ago"
Now what i was getting at is alot of the lads who go to reserve team matches post in the reserve forum here. Ive never seen them talk about Nani in the that way. Im not denying idiots didnt write him off though. I do however think they are better placed than you to judge Obertan abilities.
So you say just because someone attends reserve team matches doesnt mean they can judge talent. What exactly qualifies you to rated him as potentiall one of the "best around" ???
Also you havent commented on any of his numerous inept and toothless performances?
Id be very interested to hear the opinions of PS18 and Mujac on Obertan.
How wrong you are. When did I say such a thing?
If I was that impressed by one trick then I'd be all for buying Karel Poborsky
or this guy..I am however NOT. Something in Obertan's all round game impresses me greatly to the degree where I believe he can be everything he wants to be if he just gets his head right.
Nothing whatsoever.
Because all players have these (check out Rooney) and I like to focus on the positives.
Well, this thread took a turn for the worst.
We now seem to be stuck between Obertan being rubbish, and Obertan being a star and then some sort of technibattle between him and Welbeck/Cleverly...
Can't he be neither and still be worth waiting on?
For what it's worth, and it's probably worth little, I think Welbeck and Cleverly are both better suited to the Premiership and United at the moment, more time at the club and a better understanding of English football have seen both players shine. Welbeck I feel more so, since his loan period he's started to make a real impact for them. I've had a lot of faith in him since forever, and am probably weighted down by hope more then anything when I talk about him.
That said, it doesn't mean much. I reckon Obertan will go on to be a great player for us, before or after Welbeck or Cleverly make their impact? Who knows, who cares. It doesn't really matter at this point in time, we aren't making choices between these three players on starts or not and I'm confident we aren't thinking about selling any of them.
I think the future is bright for all three.
We now seem to be stuck between Obertan being rubbish, and Obertan being a star and then some sort of technibattle between him and Welbeck/Cleverly...
Can't he be neither and still be worth waiting on?
For what it's worth, and it's probably worth little, I think Welbeck and Cleverly are both better suited to the Premiership and United at the moment, more time at the club and a better understanding of English football have seen both players shine. Welbeck I feel more so, since his loan period he's started to make a real impact for them. I've had a lot of faith in him since forever, and am probably weighted down by hope more then anything when I talk about him.
That said, it doesn't mean much. I reckon Obertan will go on to be a great player for us, before or after Welbeck or Cleverly make their impact? Who knows, who cares. It doesn't really matter at this point in time, we aren't making choices between these three players on starts or not and I'm confident we aren't thinking about selling any of them.
I think the future is bright for all three.
I think you're being a little unfair on Wolfsburg, the then German champions, by comparing their defence to a MLS side.
Yes, I appreciate that, the players and staff work together to get it out. It's not one-sided but it's the management and staff who have the expeience and knowledge to do achieve this, not Obertan....he's the student here.
I think you're being a little unfair on Wolfsburg, the then German champions, by comparing their defence to a MLS side.
Great vids but a bit of a stupid analysis wasn't it!!
I would not listen to datura even though he is a reserve follower.
Hearing the news about Obertan putting a transfer request is a bit like me walking up to Kate Middleton and telling her I wouldn't shag her even if she was the last bird on earth.
Obertan played a full game on his debut against Barnsley in the Carling Cup. He then played 30 mins against Blackburn as a sub in October 2009.
During November and December, Nani hardly featured at all for us - he'd started only 9 of 16 matches previous to that. He started against CSKA, Obertan came on as a sub with 10 minutes to go, then came on with 5 mintes to go at Chelsea. He played the last 15 minutes against Everton when we were 2-0 up and then started the dead rubber against Besiktas (which must go down as one of the worst £36 I've ever spent). Neither player featured against Portsmouth. Obertan started in the Carling Cup against Spurs, playing 63 minutes. Nani was on the bench for the next game against West Ham, Obertan wasn't in the squad. Nani started at Wolfburg, went off when Obertan came on for the last 15 minutes, neither featured at all inthe squad against Villa. Obertan started against Wolves, played 71 minutes, Nani wasn't in the squad. Obertan was an unused sub at Fulham, Nani left out. Obertan played last 12 minutes at Hull, Nani didn't feature. Obertan was again an unused sub against Wigan, while Nani was left out. He started against Leeds, played just under an hour. Again, Nani was not in the squad. Obertan did Not feature in the squad at all from then until February 22nd when he was came on after 66 minutes at Everton. He played another 10 minutes at City in April.
So, while Nani wasn't playing back then, Obertan got a few chances. I'd hardly say he was "keeping Nani out of the squad" though. Nani was out because SAF was giving him a kick up the arse. Obertan played the equivalent of 3 and a half matches during November and December when things were looking rocky for Nani - 5 subs, 3 starts, only one game did he play the full 90 minutes.
Just quoting SAF....
I think you're being a little unfair on Wolfsburg, the then German champions, by comparing their defence to a MLS side.
Great vids but a bit of a stupid analysis wasn't it!!
Wolfburg conceded 58 goals in Bundesliga last season - only 5 teams conceded more. They conceded 8 in 6 in the Champions League... Defending is clearly not their strongest asset. They had been better in the season they won the title though. Plus that team Cleverley scored against were the "All Stars".
Correct
Indeed
Some people's reaction to the fake transfer request news.He clearly has a lot going for him, what he needs is to improve his end product and that can only be done through experience. The nature of his United career has been stop/start so far, in part due to injuries, in part due to a patchy reserve team calendar. IMO he's starting to look too good for the ressies and as such I hope the fact that we didn't send him on loan is an indication of SAF's intent to play him, and not one of any of that ominous frail psychology stuff Blanc was talking about when we signed him. He's potentially a top class player and, interestingly, in his last few games for the reserves, when he's been brilliant judging by GirishII's highlights, he's played in the middle of a front 3. A bit of versatility never hurt anyone's chances with Sir.
He's not amongst the Premier League 25 man squad! That probably explains the transfer request.
Nor's Rafael - is he looking to move?
The "transfer request that never happened" you mean?
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