Frenkie de Jong | The last muppeting lap

[croadyman]

On top of that, almost all of the info that we get is old and not necessarily indicative of the current happenings.

Yeah becoming yet another saga

 

[RORY65]

Last summer there was a Euro which tends to move things by a 2 or 3 weeks but our signings weren't particularly late and it wasn't a strategy. Sancho was signed late July, Varane early august and Ronaldo wasn't supposed to be on the market until late. Now I think that the perception of late signings probably comes from 2013 and 2014.

Also 2020, we signed Bruno on 30 January despite the deal being close by early January and most of our summer activity was after we got spanked by Spurs in the 4th game of the season. Then add that Varane wasn't announced until minutes before the Leeds game and Ronaldo signed 3 games in to the season, meaning that 2 of our last 8 senior summer signings (admittedly Amad and Pellistri weren't going to play much) were done in time for the first league game of the season.

There is the caveat that Covid threw off the calendar in 2020 so teams didn't have much turnaround time from one season to the next and the Euros in 2021 meant that a lot of business was done later but that's still later than most clubs, hopefully the changes made at the club will improve that this summer and it's still very early.

 

[George The Best]

Wiki a bit ahead of itself. Already has Frenkie as a Man Utd player with shirt number 6 - despite he’s always insisted on shirt 21

 

[Womp]

I don't think this one will happen. Seems typical of those stalemate targets where there really hasn't been a proper update in ages.

Barca need the money more than we need Frenkie. If they want to play hardball over a player that isn't even in their plans, let them enjoy their crippling debt in peace.

Midfield is one of the areas where there is options in the market, might not be as good as Frenkie individually but their is opportunity there. He isn't the be all and end all of this club's rebuild

 

[charlenefan]

I don't think this one will happen. Seems typical of those stalemate targets where there really hasn't been a proper update in ages.

Barca need the money more than we need Frenkie. If they want to play hardball over a player that isn't even in their plans, let them enjoy their crippling debt in peace.

We've literally got 2 senior central midfielders, both of whom the common consensus is are not good enough

The need for both parties is at least equal if not ours greater

 

[croadyman]

I don't think this one will happen. Seems typical of those stalemate targets where there really hasn't been a proper update in ages.

Barca need the money more than we need Frenkie. If they want to play hardball over a player that isn't even in their plans, let them enjoy their crippling debt in peace.

Midfield is one of the areas where there is options in the market, might not be as good as Frenkie individually but their is opportunity there. He isn't the be all and end all of this club's rebuild

Might jump on Neves train, yes I know he hasn't that quality of De Jong before anyone says it

 

[Charles Miller]

Some overreactions are disturbingly coincident with Mark Goldbridge rants. Even the wording.

 

[Drizzle]

The way things are going I can see us walking away to make a point, signing a couple of middle rank players instead, and then Barca dropping their knickers for another club like Liverpool or Bayern and selling them FDJ for less than €60m in a couple of weeks.

 

[pratyush_utd]

If Barca are open to selling him then we will get him.

 

[Withnail]

Some overreactions are disturbingly coincident with Mark Goldbridge rants. Even the wording.

That's been a long held suspicion for some of the awful hysterical takes round here.

 

[croadyman]

If Barca are open to selling him then we will get him.

Believed that a week ago, not now

 

[croadyman]

The way things are going I can see us walking away to make a point, signing a couple of middle rank players instead, and then Barca dropping their knickers for another club like Liverpool or Bayern and selling them FDJ for less than €60m in a couple of weeks.

Wouldn't be surprised in the slightest

 

[buckooo1978]

The way things are going I can see us walking away to make a point, signing a couple of middle rank players instead, and then Barca dropping their knickers for another club like Liverpool or Bayern and selling them FDJ for less than €60m in a couple of weeks.

yep

predictable sadly

 

[cyberman]

If Barca are open to selling him then we will get him.

They are at the right price. Thinking on it now., Utd not wanting to be their bail out kills this deal for me since that’s the entire reason they might sell De Jong in the first place.

 

[AneRu]

Don't think this one os working out but am not too disappointed either because I don't think he alone would have really transformed our midfield and bending over to what Barca are demanding leaves us with less money to invest in other positions. Yes we do need a DLP but we also need a RB, DM, CB and a forward and there is no way we are getting all those after spending £70m on FDJ.

What we need to pursue are common sense targets who may not be world class but would provide functional requirements for ETH's style, Vitinha/Nunez/Caqueret alongside a DM would be sufficient to raise the level of our midfield and make it competitive which could help bring out the dormant potential of the whole side.

Now we have wasted a month on this, watched players we could have done with go to other side and I can say I am a bit disappointed in the club because we have gone about this naively and possibly ended up not prepared to spend what's needed or we have spent too much time on a player that doesn't really want to come. Either way, defeat in this pursuit will damage perceptions about the club further.

 

[USREDEVIL]

The way things are going I can see us walking away to make a point, signing a couple of middle rank players instead, and then Barca dropping their knickers for another club like Liverpool or Bayern and selling them FDJ for less than €60m in a couple of weeks.

Oh most definitely. I can see that. Watch this space in 2 weeks.

 

[croadyman]

They are at the right price. Thinking on it now., Utd not wanting to be their bail out kills this deal for me since that’s the entire reason they might sell De Jong in the first place.

Part of me wants them to raise this money and keep him because sick of the saga

 

[sparx99]

They are at the right price. Thinking on it now., Utd not wanting to be their bail out kills this deal for me since that’s the entire reason they might sell De Jong in the first place.

This is the same club that pushed Luis Suarez out on a free transfer and loaned Griezmann to a title rival. We shouldn’t just bend over when they’ve given players away on the cheap at other times for other clubs.

 

[JPRouve]

This is the same club that pushed Luis Suarez out on a free transfer and loaned Griezmann to a title rival. We shouldn’t just bend over when they’ve given players away on the cheap at other times for other clubs.

This is a different direction and a different context. And in the case of Griezmann they won that transfer.

 

[Womp]

We've literally got 2 senior central midfielders, both of whom the common consensus is are not good enough

The need for both parties is at least equal if not ours greater

I agree - the difference is Frenkie isn't the only available midfielder

You could probably get Sangare and Ruiz for the combined amount that Frenkie would cost. They both aren't as good as him individually hut they would improve our midfield ten-fold

 

[croadyman]

I agree - the difference is Frenkie isn't the only available midfielder

You could probably get Sangare and Ruiz for the combined amount that Frenkie would cost. They both aren't as good as him individually hut they would improve our midfield ten-fold

Yeah maybe signing those two is better for us because at least we would get a proper DM then

 

[Poborsky's hair]

If he comes then fine, ETH can work with him, but most of the people making it sound like he's the new Pirlo we need. He's already 25 and part of very weak team Barcelona put up as of late. He's not exactly young anymore to justify how basic he can oftentimes be..

 

[ReallyUSA]

If he comes then fine, ETH can work with him, but most of the people making it sound like he's the new Pirlo we need. He's already 25 and part of very weak team Barcelona put up as of late. He's not exactly young anymore to justify how basic he can oftentimes be..

United and us fans are in no position, and I mean zero percent, to scoff at Barca and FDJ. Their down year ended up with them in the UCL. Our down year had us make it into the Europa due to Brighton blessing us. He would easily be the best midfielder we had at OT in years.

 

[croadyman]

United and us fans are in no position, and I mean zero percent, to scoff at Barca and FDJ. Their down year ended up with them in the UCL. Our down year had us make it into the Europa due to Brighton blessing us. He would easily be the best midfielder we had at OT in years.

Yeah shame it won't happen

 

[El-Manos]

If he comes then fine, ETH can work with him, but most of the people making it sound like he's the new Pirlo we need. He's already 25 and part of very weak team Barcelona put up as of late. He's not exactly young anymore to justify how basic he can oftentimes be..

My God, is 25 old now? He hasn’t even reached his prime.

 

[ReallyUSA]

Yeah shame it won't happen

I think it will, but it will be late due to United trying to force Barca to sell at a cut rate then eventually paying what they want.

 

[croadyman]

I think it will, but it will be late due to United trying to force Barca to sell at a cut rate then eventually paying what they want.

Well if what we hear about this deal deciding what we have to budget for others then can't afford for it to go late I'm afraid

 

[Gazza]

Yeah becoming yet another saga

Yeah shame it won't happen

Man you are a broken record

 

[sglowrider]

This thread is funny. It's like some mad schizo feck walking down the street talking to himself.
Getting all happy, then worked up and then all disappointed.

None of us here are involved in the negotiations. No facts yet many are ranting based on what they hear and read are from people involved in the negotiations. They are all rumours, conjectures or just plan made up shite.

calm the feck down.

 

[DSG]

He’s not capable of moving the ball to anybody, which is the main problem. A central midfielder who cannot pass the ball is not a midfielder at all. And his physicality is all smoke and mirrors anyway. He’s unable to take the ball from anyone without fouling them. Surely there is simply a line to where we can just say that a player is not good enough? If you cannot pass the ball well, if you cannot cover space, you are a poor tackler - I mean, this is Manchester United. He has no business here.

https://fbref.com/en/players/d93c2511/Scott-McTominay
He’s actually better than Fred in many metrics. For me, Fred is appallingly bad at times. Maybe neither is good enough. Fred has more mistakes, loses the ball more easily and in worse positions, has a poor first touch and can’t shoot.

In my opinion, neither should be first choice regulars. Maybe on United’s best teams neither would be considered as squad members. Given where we are now with our current CMs, I personally would rank them

McTominay (barely)
Fred
Garner (maybe he can move up the list!)
Donny
Andreas
Mejbri (?)

Obviously if you count Bruno as a CM, he’s top of the list.

Pretty depressing.

 

[Posh Red]

https://fbref.com/en/players/d93c2511/Scott-McTominay
He’s actually better than Fred in many metrics. For me, Fred is appallingly bad at times. Maybe neither is good enough. Fred has more mistakes, loses the ball more easily and in worse positions, has a poor first touch and can’t shoot.

In my opinion, neither should be first choice regulars. Maybe on United’s best teams neither would be considered as squad members. Given where we are now with our current CMs, I personally would rank them

McTominay (barely)
Fred
Garner (maybe he can move up the list!)
Donny
Andreas
Mejbri (?)

Obviously if you count Bruno as a CM, he’s top of the list.

Pretty depressing.

Fred had a far better season than McTomminay and has a much higher top level.

 

[Silverman]

I don't think this one will happen. Him calling Barcelona "The biggest club in the world" today makes no sense if he's on his way here.

 

[croadyman]

I don't think this one will happen. Him calling Barcelona "The biggest club in the world" today makes no sense if he's on his way here.

Precisely and amazed more can't see that

 

[croadyman]

Man you are a broken record

No just broken by this once great club

 

[DSG]

My point is that Fletcher was a significantly better player than McTominay, but originally struggled to handle the physicality of the first team. Whereas physicality is the only thing that McTominay actually has that has enabled him to play so much in the first team. Once Fletcher developed that side of his game we saw his true level which was absolutely miles above anything that Scott has ever shown, so a comparison between them really isn't accurate at all. It's quite a lazy comparison that is really based on Fletcher's early years, but the difference is that Fletch had the ability and just needed time to develop.

Fletcher was arguably our best midfielder in his last two seasons before the illness, playing more often than both Carrick and Scholes. He definitely out-performed Carrick in those seasons, although admittedly they were also Carrick's worst seasons where he has since admitted that he was struggling with depression. But could you ever imagine McTominay regularly being picked ahead of those two? He's probably the easiest player to upgrade in the weakest Utd team for 30 years, and honestly he shouldn't even really be a squad player as he's lacking in so many of the most important aspects of being a central midfielder.

This thread is getting hijacked. I think we are saying similar things. I probably underrate Fletcher a bit and overrate Scotty and maybe you overrate Fletcher and underrate Scotty. In relative terms, we had a stronger squad then. I disagree that it’s a lazy comparison, but then again, I don’t think Fletcher was much more than a ball mover offensively, whereas you think he was better than that. Loved Fletch in derbies and big matches though. Always seemed to pop up with a goal.

 

[sglowrider]

No just broken by this once great club

Form is temporary, class is permanent.

 

[Yorke to Cole]

They're a shameful club tbh. Regularly tap up other clubs stars to drive down their price and push them to sell while playing total hardball with their own players.

Messi really had them acting and thinking they're the biggest club in the world when they never were before and have come back down to earth since he left. It's why I have zero sympathy for them for their financial difficulties since that disastrous previous club administration. It was totally self inflicted and fitting for such a sacrosanct and superior acting club.

We have had problems with them since we accepted their offer for David Beckham, but he then turned them down to go to Real Madrid. They then took Ronaldinho from our grasp. Then there were the difficult negotiations over players we wanted to buy, but they did/would not sell to us.

I am beginning to feel that we should walk away.Although, we miss out on the player, it sets boundaries
and says that we will not mess around. Let them engineer a a mystical deal out of thin air that gets them out financial trouble, like they and Real Madrid always do and we concentrate on ourselves.

 

[simonhch]

People like to harp on about the old days but the constant news (yes even disappointments) are a godsend compared to the lack of any news we had during that time.

Well, I’m sorry for harping on….

 

[Ted Lasso]

So it's official then

 

[sherrinford]

Agree, but he likes to carry the ball forward from his deep position, so need someone with some tactical discipline and awareness next to him that will also get stuck in when needed. I honestly think Rice would be the perfect compliment as he’s so tactically sound and adept at screening the back four, it’ll free up Frenkie to be a play
maker and progress the ball and not have to worry about some of the defensive responsibilities. Obviously won’t be happening this summer, but one can dream.

I think the only way Rice could bring out the best of De Jong would be by asking him to be something that he is not - play as more of a two-way player to give De Jong the space to operate in front of the back four.

If De Jong's partner is capable of anchoring the midfield then great, ideal - as long as they also excel in more of a box to box capacity next to an anchoring midfielder.

McTom could work box to box to be honest. He can't really be trusted defensively and seems better when getting into the opposition half moving forwards using his physicality. I wonder if he'd actually work well alongside a FDJ in this case. Would need a hell of a lot of coaching positionally though I'd imagine ETH would be the type to apply that.

I'm sure he could, he just isn't of a particularly high quality. I feel Fred is superior, though I would have preferred him to have McTominay's physique and steadier touch.

https://fbref.com/en/players/1bacc518/Frenkie-de-Jong#scout_summary_MF

He’s a deep lying playmaker. Just because he plays deeper on the pitch doesn’t mean he’s good defensively. Ffs, he’s in the 3rd percentile in pressures, 8th percentile in tackles. For him to be really effective, he needs to be paired with a quality DM.

I didn't say he was good defensively and it's not what he excels at and what you would say he brings to a team (though he's not weak in that regard, is generally an intelligent defender, is much more athletic than others of his ilk and therefore has the ability to cover ground more quickly than said peers, and can and has played at centre back). He also hasn't accrued those stats playing in a deep position, and your closing declaration is not a natural conclusion to the rest of your post. Why does being a deep-lying midfielder with low pressures and tackles mean pairing with a DM is a necessity? Where was Pirlo's DM?