Frenkie de Jong | The last muppeting lap

[Rolaholic]

Maybe Barcelona are just difficult to deal with? Fabregas and Thiago negotiations went similarly.

They're a shameful club tbh. Regularly tap up other clubs stars to drive down their price and push them to sell while playing total hardball with their own players.

Messi really had them acting and thinking they're the biggest club in the world when they never were before and have come back down to earth since he left. It's why I have zero sympathy for them for their financial difficulties since that disastrous previous club administration. It was totally self inflicted and fitting for such a sacrosanct and superior acting club.

 

[USREDEVIL]

They're a shameful club tbh. Regularly tap up other clubs stars to drive down their price and push them to sell while playing total hardball with their own players.

Messi really had them acting and thinking they're the biggest club in the world when they never were before and have come back down to earth since he left. It's why I have zero sympathy for them for their financial difficulties since that disastrous previous club administration. It was totally self inflicted and fitting for such a sacrosanct and superior acting club.

No "mes que un club" eh?
Most annoying club outside england.

 

[Garethw]

what's the lottery numbers next week?

What on earth are you talking about? We cannot afford to screw up this transfer window.

 

[sullydnl]

Lets just waste the whole summer chasing a player that doesn’t want to join then.

We're, what, five days into the transfer window? And the story around this deal has been marked by constant reports of us having a deadline beyond which we will move on to other targets.

Maybe wait until we actually look like wasting the summer before complaining about us wasting the summer?

 

[GinobiliTheGOAT]

Maybe Barcelona are just difficult to deal with? Fabregas and Thiago negotiations went similarly.

Wrong. There is a vote pending which is why Barca are waiting. Got d it passes they’ll have a ton more money and will know if they can keep De Jong or not. It’s not like United have submitted 10 bids and Barca keeps taking. Day after tomorrow once Barca sees what’s up with their finances then they’ll know of de Jong has to go or not.

 

[GinobiliTheGOAT]

Which economic agreement? They already said no to CVC deal.

https://www.football-espana.net/202...rs-to-activate-barcelona-financial-levers/amp

That one which will be a game changer for them

 

[JPRouve]

The scenario is we are shite. We need to invest and £150m isn’t enough to take us from 6th to top 4.

Therefore the budget is crap. But if we want to be the new Arsenal, the budget is brilliant.

Or it's a very good budget and our rebuild will likely require more than one year? Because there is no logic in your point when only 3 or 4 teams in the world will have a budget close to 150m.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

The scenario is we are shite. We need to invest and £150m isn’t enough to take us from 6th to top 4.

Therefore the budget is crap. But if we want to be the new Arsenal, the budget is brilliant.

I think your opinion of that budget is affected because we want to blow half of it on De Jong. We can get about 4 good players with that budget

 

[Bojan Djordjic]

Obviously yes. Although Nunez noise was all United with the odd mention of Liverpool. As soon as the Liverpool rumours hotted up he’s holding a red shirt 5 days later. I think there is genuinely a deliberate slowness in the way we negotiate transfers.

I think there was a story in the athletic last week about how the glazers prefer to do late business because it puts the selling clubs under pressure and there’s more value in the market.

It just happens to put the buying club under huge pressure too and prevents management from having a full pre season with their new playing staff but I’m sure that’s secondary to the glazers. Seems like a false economy if you’re missing out on targets and not qualifying for Europe as a consequence

 

[KiD MoYeS]

I think there was a story in the athletic last week about how the glazers prefer to do late business because it puts the selling clubs under pressure and there’s more value in the market.

It just happens to put the buying club under huge pressure too and prevents management from having a full pre season with their new playing staff but I’m sure that’s secondary to the glazers. Seems like a false economy if you’re missing out on targets and not qualifying for Europe as a consequence

That makes sense. I genuinely do think one of the reasons that the club prefers to drag out deals is to maximise the stories / press reporting / social media reaction around the transfer. But also definitely makes sense that the inept owners think they're playing poker with these deals and end up going all in with a high number when their bluff is called eventually.

 

[JPRouve]

I think there was a story in the athletic last week about how the glazers prefer to do late business because it puts the selling clubs under pressure and there’s more value in the market.

It just happens to put the buying club under huge pressure too and prevents management from having a full pre season with their new playing staff but I’m sure that’s secondary to the glazers. Seems like a false economy if you’re missing out on targets and not qualifying for Europe as a consequence

I don't believe this because we don't really make late business. Our signings are done around the first or second weeks of July, sometimes sooner which is normal. There are cases were we signed players late but it was due to the selling club or the player own circumstances.

 

[AdNani]

What on earth are you talking about? We cannot afford to screw up this transfer window.

well you seem to know, 1 week into the transfer window that we've wasted the whole summer chasing him. so i was wondering if you knew anything else in the future

i know we can't, which is why we should be looking at the best possible players for the best possible price. paying 65 million for De Jong will be a lot better than Ruben Neves for 50 or the boy from Porto.

The Deal will get done btw, posturing from both sides

 

[croadyman]

The sheer amount or negativity in this thread is a real mood killer.

Where should we be optimistic then

 

[KiD MoYeS]

I don't believe this because we don't really make late business. Our signings are done around the first or second weeks of July, sometimes sooner which is normal. There are cases were we signed players late but it was due to the selling club or the player own circumstances.

It does feel like most our transfer business is completed closer to the closure of the transfer window rather than the opening, without having actually researched dates.

 

[croadyman]

This isn’t happening and never was, if our grand plan for a midfielder was FdJ then were in bigger trouble than I thought.

Midfield is a position we’ve been weak in for a long time we should have a list of a hundred players scouted from across Europe capable of improving our lot.

Very close to admitting defeat due to these strong sources talking about how far away we are from a deal

 

[Kinsella]

Where should we be optimistic then

The Current Events section.

 

[talking robot]

Well, that would be shocking. No DM, no ST, a 20-year old CB who may take at least an year to adapt and yet another winger. Basically, addressing zero of our pressing issues.

We only have one player who is at the level as a wing option in Sancho. Rashford has been a waste of space, Elenga is young and learnin'. Pellistri and Amad probably need another loan if they are good enough at all. We definitely need someone there. For CB's, many people think neither Maguire or Lindelof are good enough, myself included. So from my perspective, CB is a pressing issue. Opinions may differ, but that's definitely mine. DM I agree would be useful.

In any case, the larger point is I'd happily take Vitinha and Eriksen instead of De Jong, if that means we can just get on the rest of our business quickly (and actually have enough money left over for substantial business). How you then prioritize the rest of the budget and transfers is a separate point.

 

[JPRouve]

It does feel like most our transfer business is completed closer to the closure of the transfer window rather than the opening, without having actually researched dates.

And it's not the case, I told you when it's generally done. Most are done late June to mid July, some have been at the end of the window but it's not most and there is no indication that there is a strategy being followed, outside of a suspiscion that the end of August signings are back up options.

 

[KiD MoYeS]

And it's not the case, I told you when it's generally done. Most are done late June to mid July, some have been at the end of the window but it's not most and there is no indication that there is a strategy being followed, outside of a suspiscion that the end of August signings are back up options.

Maybe it's just recency bias, feel like majority of our transfer business last summer was late - but some of the business was opportunistic.

 

[pascell]

I've just read 8 pages of absolute nothing. If we're doing a deal, we'll drag it as close to 30th June as possible to get the fee down.

 

[DSG]

Fletcher was always much more talented than McTominay. He was hugely rated coming through the youth ranks, to the extent that he would have been the youngest player to ever appear in our first team except PL rules didn't allow it as he was still on a schoolboy contract. Once he did break into the team he did struggle for a few years, but that was at least partly due to physical limitations as he was just so damn weak and easy to push around at that age (which is why he largely played out wide to reduce how much that would be targeted). By the time he was McTominay's current age he'd grown into his body and was a very important part of our starting 11, to the extent that he was being picked in the PFA Premier League Team of the Year. Unfortunately his illness hit him soon after so he only had about two years at a top level.

McTominay is largely expected to play the same role as Fletcher did, but really that's where the comparison ends. He was never considered one of the stand-outs of his age group and most people who watched the youth ranks were surprised when he started getting first team appearances. And arguably the only real reason that he did break into the team was his physicality, which is the exact opposite of Fletch.

Not sure what you are trying to say… Darren Fletcher had a fine career here. Objectively, he was 3rd and 4th choice as a CM for just about every season he played for us. Scholes and Carrick were always first choice, Ji-sung Park played centrally at times, particularly in Europe, we had Anderson too, there was Keane and Scholes mostly when Fletcher was young. Fletcher made 30 appearances for United in the PL just once in his career — 29 starts that season. Every other season was 25 starts or under, mostly way under. The season he made the PFA Team of the year was a joke. Both Frank Lampard and Steven Gerrard had far better seasons. Lampard had 22 goals and 14 assists and Chelsea won the league by 1 point over us. Truly a travesty. Fletcher was good, very solid. But he played fewer games, had many less goal contributions than Lampard. He was on the field mostly because Scholes and Carrick were injured. Further on to this, Darren Fletcher was never known as a particularly gifted technical player, he was known for being smart, dependable and gritty.

My point is that Scott McTominay is essentially a decent squad player that can fill in and do a job when there are injuries or we are playing lower table sides. In my mind, he is a lot like Darren Fletcher — shouldn’t be first choice, but will come in and can be relied upon to execute the game plan and keep the ball moving, put in some tackles and generally perform decently well. But his ceiling is a squad player, and only because we have fallen on hard times is he relied upon way past his own capability.

‘In terms of their pedigree in the United youth teams, I’m not sure how that is relevant. Players develop at different rates. You’re right, McTominay was not a standout, but he happened to grow 9 inches in a year to get to 6’4” and suddenly had the physical gifts he was lacking to make the 1st team. Literally less than 5% of of youth players make an appearance for the United senior team. He already has 170 appearances at age 25, more because we’ve had a weak midfield than anything else.

In my mind their roles SHOULD be very similar: squad players that are necessary in a trophy winning side that give more talented players a chance to rest but are dependable enough to do a job.

 

[Mainoldo]

Or it's a very good budget and our rebuild will likely require more than one year? Because there is no logic in your point when only 3 or 4 teams in the world will have a budget close to 150m.

Was they 6th trying to get back to the top?

Would Barca or Madrid move that way with resources?

 

[Mainoldo]

I think your opinion of that budget is affected because we want to blow half of it on De Jong. We can get about 4 good players with that budget

Yeah it is. My issue is if that happens you increase the budget.

It’s not like every season these guys give the manager £150m to blow.

 

[JPRouve]

Maybe it's just recency bias, feel like majority of our transfer business last summer was late - but some of the business was opportunistic.

Last summer there was a Euro which tends to move things by a 2 or 3 weeks but our signings weren't particularly late and it wasn't a strategy. Sancho was signed late July, Varane early august and Ronaldo wasn't supposed to be on the market until late. Now I think that the perception of late signings probably comes from 2013 and 2014.

 

[croadyman]

Obviously yes. Although Nunez noise was all United with the odd mention of Liverpool. As soon as the Liverpool rumours hotted up he’s holding a red shirt 5 days later. I think there is genuinely a deliberate slowness in the way we negotiate transfers.

Yeah convinced this is because Utd love how many clicks that gets us and all the mentions and retweets utter BS

 

[DSG]

Also wasn't Fletcher a right midfielder? If I remember correctly he struggled relative to expectations as an RM but he wasn't bad, not Kieran Richardson bad, a bit later he found a place as a CM and didn't let it go until his illness.

I could be misremembering things totally.

He played at RM 26 times over 342 appearances with us. So, yes he played there very sparingly. He was never a true RM as he was not particularly great at crossing the ball and couldn’t beat defenders 1v1. He just filled gaps for Fergie when needed. The ultimate squad player.

 

[JPRouve]

Was they 6th trying to get back to the top?

Would Barca or Madrid move that way with resources?

I don't get your point, do you expect United to have a budget they can't afford? Do you want United to be in the financial situation Barcelona currently have? And Real Madrid has recent seasons with negative spendings.

 

[DSG]

No, fergie played him RM to break into the side as we were blessed in CM but CM was always his natural role.

McTominay was a forward in the youth teams

This.

 

[Mainoldo]

I don't get your point, do you expect United to have a budget they can't afford? Do you want United to be in the financial situation Barcelona currently have? And Real Madrid has recent seasons with negative spendings.

Mate not being funny but I very much doubt we would be spending £300m giving players 400k to half a million a week.

That’s just two extremes. Increasing the budget by an extra £30-£50m should not a 3 week business case.

 

[DSG]

He’s not a squad player, he’s a United regular and has been for years. Despite being terrible.

I’m not a numbers man, except for goals, but I watch McTominay and see he offers almost no defensive value at all. He’s always poorly positioned and cannot tackle at all.

I’m saying he SHOULD be a squad player. I think with FDJ helping to break the press and playing further back, Scotty could just use his physicality to destroy further up the pitch, move the ball to Frenkie and other distributors and make late runs into the box. He’s not a DM.

 

[JPRouve]

Mate not being funny but I very much doubt we would be spending £300m giving players 400k to half a million a week.

That’s just two extremes. Increasing the budget by an extra £30-£50m should not a 3 week business case.

What makes you think that it wouldn't happen if the right player was available? Your initial point makes even less sense, instead of suggesting that maybe under the right circumstance the club should stretch the budget, you claimed that a 150m budget was crap and that's without taking into account the fact that no one player guarantees you success, so your initial meltdown makes even less sense.

Just chill, I assume that you are going to be supporting United in 5 years, so stop looking at everything with a shortsighted view. Moan about things that actually exist instead of making up new things to complain about.

 

[Mainoldo]

What makes you think that it wouldn't happen if the right player was available? Your initial point makes even less sense, instead of suggesting that maybe under the right circumstance the club should stretch the budget, you claimed that a 150m budget was crap and that's without taking into account the fact that no one player guarantees you success, so your initial meltdown makes even less sense.

Just chill, I assume that you are going to be supporting United in 5 years, so stop looking at everything with a shortsighted view. Moan about things that actually exist instead of making up new things to complain about.

If it happens I have zero problem. I was just pointing it out as we seem to be haggling to the extreme with all the latest links.

 

[Rozay]

I’m saying he SHOULD be a squad player. I think with FDJ helping to break the press and playing further back, Scotty could just use his physicality to destroy further up the pitch, move the ball to Frenkie and other distributors and make late runs into the box. He’s not a DM.

He’s not capable of moving the ball to anybody, which is the main problem. A central midfielder who cannot pass the ball is not a midfielder at all. And his physicality is all smoke and mirrors anyway. He’s unable to take the ball from anyone without fouling them. Surely there is simply a line to where we can just say that a player is not good enough? If you cannot pass the ball well, if you cannot cover space, you are a poor tackler - I mean, this is Manchester United. He has no business here.

 

[JPRouve]

If it happens I have zero problem. I was just pointing it out as we seem to be haggling to the extreme with all the latest links.

You weren't just pointing out and all clubs haggle, it's also worth remembering that no journalist is given step by step reports of what is happening behind the scenes, most reports are the same info being reported with different words.

 

[Abraxas]

He’s not capable of moving the ball to anybody, which is the main problem. A central midfielder who cannot pass the ball is not a midfielder at all. And his physicality is all smoke and mirrors anyway. He’s unable to take the ball from anyone without fouling them. Surely there is simply a line to where we can just say that a player is not good enough? If you cannot pass the ball well, if you cannot cover space, you are a poor tackler - I mean, this is Manchester United. He has no business here.

Maybe, but I don't think he's going anywhere. I doubt getting rid of a relatively cheap to keep player when we have so few midfield options is on the manager's agenda. Nor should it be until we either get a number of signings in for the position, and decide what to do with Garner.

I'd just expect him to have a less important role and then he probably won't be so rage inducing.

 

[Rozay]

Maybe, but I don't think he's going anywhere. I doubt getting rid of a relatively cheap to keep player when we have so few midfield options is on the manager's agenda. Nor should it be until we either get a number of signings in for the position, and decide what to do with Garner.

I'd just expect him to have a less important role and then he probably won't be so rage inducing.

This wasn’t a debate about whether he should be sold as such, although I think he should, it was me initially responding to him being called a squad player. Unfortunately, he isn’t. Him being sold, we should do it when it makes sense for us to do so in terms of squad numbers and his market value.

Ultimately, he’s not an indispensable footballer to Manchester United.

 

[MadDogg]

Not sure what you are trying to say… Darren Fletcher had a fine career here. Objectively, he was 3rd and 4th choice as a CM for just about every season he played for us. Scholes and Carrick were always first choice, Ji-sung Park played centrally at times, particularly in Europe, we had Anderson too, there was Keane and Scholes mostly when Fletcher was young. Fletcher made 30 appearances for United in the PL just once in his career — 29 starts that season. Every other season was 25 starts or under, mostly way under. The season he made the PFA Team of the year was a joke. Both Frank Lampard and Steven Gerrard had far better seasonsLampard had 22 goals and 14 assists and Chelsea won the league by 1 point over us. Truly a travesty. Fletcher was good, very solid. But he played fewer games, had many less goal contributions than Lampard. He was on the field mostly because Scholes and Carrick were injured. Further on to this, Darren Fletcher was never known as a particularly gifted technical player, he was known for being smart, dependable and gritty.

My point is that Scott McTominay is essentially a decent squad player that can fill in and do a job when there are injuries or we are playing lower table sides. In my mind, he is a lot like Darren Fletcher — shouldn’t be first choice, but will come in and can be relied upon to execute the game plan and keep the ball moving, put in some tackles and generally perform decently well. But his ceiling is a squad player, and only because we have fallen on hard times is he relied upon way past his own capability.

‘In terms of their pedigree in the United youth teams, I’m not sure how that is relevant. Players develop at different rates. You’re right, McTominay was not a standout, but he happened to grow 9 inches in a year to get to 6’4” and suddenly had the physical gifts he was lacking to make the 1st team. Literally less than 5% of of youth players make an appearance for the United senior team. He already has 170 appearances at age 25, more because we’ve had a weak midfield than anything else.

In my mind their roles SHOULD be very similar: squad players that are necessary in a trophy winning side that give more talented players a chance to rest but are dependable enough to do a job.

My point is that Fletcher was a significantly better player than McTominay, but originally struggled to handle the physicality of the first team. Whereas physicality is the only thing that McTominay actually has that has enabled him to play so much in the first team. Once Fletcher developed that side of his game we saw his true level which was absolutely miles above anything that Scott has ever shown, so a comparison between them really isn't accurate at all. It's quite a lazy comparison that is really based on Fletcher's early years, but the difference is that Fletch had the ability and just needed time to develop.

Fletcher was arguably our best midfielder in his last two seasons before the illness, playing more often than both Carrick and Scholes. He definitely out-performed Carrick in those seasons, although admittedly they were also Carrick's worst seasons where he has since admitted that he was struggling with depression. But could you ever imagine McTominay regularly being picked ahead of those two? He's probably the easiest player to upgrade in the weakest Utd team for 30 years, and honestly he shouldn't even really be a squad player as he's lacking in so many of the most important aspects of being a central midfielder.

 

[mazhar13]

You weren't just pointing out and all clubs haggle, it's also worth remembering that no journalist is given step by step reports of what is happening behind the scenes, most reports are the same info being reported with different words.

On top of that, almost all of the info that we get is old and not necessarily indicative of the current happenings.

 

[Baxter]

Is the negativity because of some Fantasy Football account?

 

[croadyman]

Is the negativity because of some Fantasy Football account?

No due to tweets from reliable Utd sources