Frenkie de Jong | The last muppeting lap

Frenkie to United?

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Ahmer Baig said:
Sky Sports News has been told United will walk away from the deal if they can't negotiate what they feel is a reasonable price - and are keeping an eye on other options.

https://www.skysports.com/football/...-news-and-rumours-summer-transfer-window-2022
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Good. We need to draw lines in the sand and establish a decent negotiating base/rep.

I don’t want to lose out on de Jong for a few million (that’d be silly) but if it’s 20-30 and/or Barca drag it out for weeks (meaning we lose out on potential alts), I’d rather we move on.

But I still think we’re in a decent negotiating position given it’s Barca and they have replacements ready and want to buy at least two identified new players.
 
Ahmer Baig said:
The problem was buying Harry Maguire at 80 million. So every team wants to make money when doing business with Man utd because of their incompetence in doing business..
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As anyone should. I mean others have overpaid the last few years, Barca for Coutinho, Chelsea for Lukaku or Atleti for Felix etc but no one, I mean no one can remotely justify the Maguire fee. A €20m defender from the continent could do a better job than he does
 
NLunited said:
That is because Fred chases the ball down more, he is an energetic presser. His numbers are very good.
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Oh that's great then, not at all concerning that he doesn't intelligently select when to press leaving the midfield vacant for a counter attack at all. Very assuring
 
Drainy said:
Dribbled past and successful pressures are what I was raising as the concern with Fred as a partner for FDJ earlier.. Bottom 7%..
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That's my concern with Fred in general and the only reason why he isn't an elite DM but I also think that he is on paper a good fit for De Jong, an aggressive defender like Fred seem to match well with De Jong's calculated style. Now Fred has other issues like a lack of power which see him get rag-dolled a bit too often.
 
JPRouve said:
That's my concern with Fred in general and the only reason why he isn't an elite DM but I also think that he is on paper a good fit for De Jong, an aggressive defender like Fred seem to match well with De Jong's calculated style. Now Fred has other issues like a lack of power which see him get rag-dolled a bit too often.
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In a traditional midfield three, rather than a double pivot I would agree. They would be a good match.

With Bruno in the 10 position, I'm doubtful that Fred would be disciplined enough or good enough in 1 on 1 reactive defending for when FDJ wants to drive forward
 
Drainy said:
Dribbled past and successful pressures are what I was raising as the concern with Fred as a partner for FDJ earlier.. Bottom 7%..
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Obviously some of that is down to the individual's ability, but surely part of it is dependent on the system deployed by the teams in question? You would like to think that ten Hag will have us more organised and cohesive, therefore players will press more efficiently as a collective in the right areas. This would alleviate some of those concerns.
 
JPRouve said:
That's my concern with Fred in general and the only reason why he isn't an elite DM but I also think that he is on paper a good fit for De Jong, an aggressive defender like Fred seem to match well with De Jong's calculated style. Now Fred has other issues like a lack of power which see him get rag-dolled a bit too often.
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It's not the only reason he's not an elite dm, he's also physically quite weak for a dm and gets outmuscled easily as you mentioned, and his dodgy touch can get us in trouble when he receives it in his own half. He also doesn't have much recovery pace to get back with his tiny legs.
 
Drainy said:
Dribbled past and successful pressures are what I was raising as the concern with Fred as a partner for FDJ earlier.. Bottom 7%..
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Yes but De Jong isn't some slouch either; he is used to playing as the deepest midfielder and has done so at Ajax. He avgs 2.4 tackles and interceptions playing higher up at Barca and in the 96th percentile for dribbled past.

I'm not saying we can't get a more defensive minded player but having spent 65 to 70 mil on De Jong it seems highly unlikely we'll fork out the sum required to get a better option than Fred.
 
For his own career it would be better to come to united look at last season riding the bench and playing europa league games
 
Andrew7582 said:
It's not the only reason he's not an elite dm, he's also physically quite weak for a dm and gets outmuscled easily as you mentioned, and his dodgy touch can get us in trouble when he receives it in his own half. He also doesn't have much recovery pace to get back with his tiny legs.
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You can compensate a lack of power with positioning and anticipation. He is also fast enough, I can't agree with that criticism.
 
Andrew7582 said:
It's not the only reason he's not an elite dm, he's also physically quite weak for a dm and gets outmuscled easily as you mentioned, and his dodgy touch can get us in trouble when he receives it in his own half. He also doesn't have much recovery pace to get back with his tiny legs.
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I'd say Fred's pretty fast for that position. Probably as big an engine as anyone in the league.

Quality on the ball his major weakness. And being fairly poor defensively outside of getting back in position and working hard.
 
Sandikan said:
I'd say Fred's pretty fast for that position. Probably as big an engine as anyone in the league.

Quality on the ball his major weakness. And being fairly poor defensively outside of getting back in position and working hard.
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Surely if he's that poor defensively then a CDM alongside De Jong is absolutely essential
 
Drainy said:
In a traditional midfield three, rather than a double pivot I would agree. They would be a good match.

With Bruno in the 10 position, I'm doubtful that Fred would be disciplined enough or good enough in 1 on 1 reactive defending for when FDJ wants to drive forward
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But that's a Bruno problem not a Fred plus De Jong problem. In fact you will have the same issue with whoever you have next to De Jong outside of prime Marcos Senna due to Bruno being a liability defensively.
 
JPRouve said:
You can compensate a lack of power with positioning and anticipation. He is also fast enough, I can't agree with that criticism.
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Athletic midfielders make him look like a small child during the transition phase, they body him and sprint past him like he is a junior playing with men.
 
E-mal said:
I stayed in Manchester for 3 weeks and I can understand why she might not like it, food is crap, the wheather is horrible but the people are generally nice.
This is why having an a good English core might be nice.
My issue though is why do City South American and Spanish contingent don't complain about this?
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There are Michelin star restaurants in most major cities in the UK, I’m sure he’ll be fine.
 
Andrew7582 said:
Athletic midfielders make him look like a small child during the transition phase, they body him and sprint past him like he is a junior playing with men.
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Which is true for any player facing someone that his bigger, stronger or faster and yet it doesn't prevent anyone from being considered elite. Don't get me wrong I get your criticism but it's not a pre-requisite for eliteness, being elite doesn't mean that you are virtually perfect for all situations. No one is perfect and generally elite players compensate a lack of physical abilities with superior tactical abilities while other elite players may compensate for a lack of tactical abilities with elite physical abilities.

In this context in my opinion the one thing that Fred lacks to be elite is better tactical abilities, why do I target that point because the other way to increase his defensive efficiency would be to change his body which isn't happening, Fred isn't going to grow anytime soon. That would reduce the amount of times he finds himself in unfavourable situations.
 
avgp_1 said:
As anyone should. I mean others have overpaid the last few years, Barca for Coutinho, Chelsea for Lukaku or Atleti for Felix etc but no one, I mean no one can remotely justify the Maguire fee. A €20m defender from the continent could do a better job than he does
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What a load of rubbish. Maguire is a far better defender than Lukaku is a striker and they spent even more on him for a start.
 
OK guys as i'm find an information about Barca financial the summary is.

1 Now they need to find around 300m euro before 30 June.
2 next week (16 June) there are socios meeting which Laporta team need the approval for sale of barcelona merchandising license, this make them around 200m euro.
3 The other 100m euro, they need to sell their assets, now they have 2 different way.
3.1 From selling portion of their TV right. (15% to Goldman sach as an example)
3.2 From selling their player. (FDJ)

That why 100m euro is magic numbers for them.

PS. as you seen on Arthur-Pjanic deal, this kind of transaction may be possible for them.
 
JPRouve said:
From what I understand Manchester is one of the most interesting city in Europe for relatively young people.
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If you want to take pingers and go to great raves, then yes. I went to uni there and it’s great vibes, went back for work a few months ago and went to all the places I used to love and felt quite old.
 
TrustInJanuzaj said:
What a load of rubbish. Maguire is a far better defender than Lukaku is a striker and they spent even more on him for a start.
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Lukaku scored 30+ goals for Inter across consecutive seasons as they finished second and first and a proven goalscorer at the international level being Belgium's highest ever goalscorer in his peak years.

A striker will anyways always pull in the big bucks. Vlahovic went for 70m in a transfer among Serie A teams and he is as unproven as it gets. So overpaid yes but not unbelievable really..

80m for a defender who is all over the place when anyone is even 10 yards away running at him, is stuck in cement when someone breaks away, loses the ball in calamitous circumstances. I mean cmon it really is a joke. For instance De Vrij was bought for Free at the same time by Inter and he is a million times the better defender
 
JPRouve said:
Which is true for any player facing someone that his bigger, stronger or faster and yet it doesn't prevent anyone from being considered elite. Don't get me wrong I get your criticism but it's not a pre-requisite for eliteness, being elite doesn't mean that you are virtually perfect for all situations. No one is perfect and generally elite players compensate a lack of physical abilities with superior tactical abilities while other elite players may compensate for a lack of tactical abilities with elite physical abilities.

In this context in my opinion the one thing that Fred lacks to be elite is better tactical abilities, why do I target that point because the other way to increase his defensive efficiency would be to change his body which isn't happening, Fred isn't going to grow anytime soon. That would reduce the amount of times he finds himself in unfavourable situations.
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I agree with you that physical deficiences can be compensated for with a good football brain, however there are only so many things you can compensate for. His dodgy touch and inconsistent passing isn't likely to get better at the age of 29 either. With this many deficiencies, it's not a recipe for an elite midfielder is it.
 
avgp_1 said:
Lukaku scored 30+ goals for Inter across consecutive seasons as they finished second and first and a proven goalscorer at the international level being Belgium's highest ever goalscorer in his peak years.

A striker will anyways always pull in the big bucks. Vlahovic went for 70m in a transfer among Serie A teams and he is as unproven as it gets. So overpaid yes but not unbelievable really..

80m for a defender who is all over the place when anyone is even 10 yards away running at him, is stuck in cement when someone breaks away, loses the ball in calamitous circumstances. I mean cmon it really is a joke. For instance De Vrij was bought for Free at the same time by Inter and he is a million times the better defender
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You’re underrating Maguire but fair enough you do you.
 
Andrew7582 said:
I agree with you that physical deficiences can be compensated for with a good football brain, however there are only so many things you can compensate for. His dodgy touch and inconsistent passing isn't likely to get better at the age of 29 either. With this many deficiencies, it's not a recipe for an elite midfielder is it.
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You have a far worse opinion of Fred's overall abilities than I do. :lol:
 
Andrew7582 said:
I agree with you that physical deficiences can be compensated for with a good football brain, however there are only so many things you can compensate for. His dodgy touch and inconsistent passing isn't likely to get better at the age of 29 either. With this many deficiencies, it's not a recipe for an elite midfielder is it.
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Poor first touch and pass? Non sense! It’s so ridiculous so many even buy into this nonsense.
 
avgp_1 said:
Lukaku scored 30+ goals for Inter across consecutive seasons as they finished second and first and a proven goalscorer at the international level being Belgium's highest ever goalscorer in his peak years.

A striker will anyways always pull in the big bucks. Vlahovic went for 70m in a transfer among Serie A teams and he is as unproven as it gets. So overpaid yes but not unbelievable really..

80m for a defender who is all over the place when anyone is even 10 yards away running at him, is stuck in cement when someone breaks away, loses the ball in calamitous circumstances. I mean cmon it really is a joke. For instance De Vrij was bought for Free at the same time by Inter and he is a million times the better defender
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He's scored over 120 goals in the Prem and was one of the highest scorers in Europe at Inter but Maguire who's never done anything of note at the club level is somehow levels above :lol::wenger:

They were both very overvalued but Lukaku is still quite a bit better at his trade than Harry is.
 


“If our economic situation requires the sale of an important player, we are ready for that,” Laporta said in a recent interview (h/t BarçaTV+).
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They've been laying down their justification for selling him out in public for weeks now.
 
Rolaholic said:
He's scored over 120 goals in the Prem and was one of the highest scorers in Europe at Inter but Maguire who's never done anything of note at the club level is somehow levels above :lol::wenger:

They were both very overvalued but Lukaku is still quite a bit better at his trade than Harry is.
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They're both rubbish. Maguire was around as good in his good season as Lukaku was last year. Rom was also about as good at West Brom as Maguire was at Leicester.

If Maguire went to play in Italy, they'd be raving about him there too, just as they did Smalling and Lukaku - because the extra half second you get in Italy, flatters players with weaker technical ability.
 
Rolaholic said:
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It's a done deal imo. For the first time since Carrick, we will have a mega talented midfielder that can do it all from a playmaking, recycling possession and smart positioning perspective. He will be one of the best mids in the World for us under ETH.
 
How quickly threads become derailed. Thought I’d wandered into the Maguire vs Lukaku thread.
 
JPRouve said:
Which is true for any player facing someone that his bigger, stronger or faster and yet it doesn't prevent anyone from being considered elite. Don't get me wrong I get your criticism but it's not a pre-requisite for eliteness, being elite doesn't mean that you are virtually perfect for all situations. No one is perfect and generally elite players compensate a lack of physical abilities with superior tactical abilities while other elite players may compensate for a lack of tactical abilities with elite physical abilities.

In this context in my opinion the one thing that Fred lacks to be elite is better tactical abilities, why do I target that point because the other way to increase his defensive efficiency would be to change his body which isn't happening, Fred isn't going to grow anytime soon. That would reduce the amount of times he finds himself in unfavourable situations.
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Scholes didn't have this problem, and he was small and not that quick. Veratti, same. Even Our Juan was not a big man and not particularly speedy. I think the post you replied to is bang on the money. Fred looks like a schoolboy out there because he's just not that good. I agree with you, he's not elite and he doesn't have superior skills, but mainly Fred's problem is he has zero tactical awareness and gets lost in the game.
 
Wing Attack Plan R said:
Scholes didn't have this problem, and he was small and not that quick. Veratti, same. Even Our Juan was not a big man and not particularly speedy. I think the post you replied to is bang on the money. Fred looks like a schoolboy out there because he's just not that good. I agree with you, he's not elite and he doesn't have superior skills, but mainly Fred's problem is he has zero tactical awareness and gets lost in the game.
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Scholes was a poor defender, a really poor defender. And not a DM, let alone an elite DM.
 
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