Frenkie de Jong | The last muppeting lap

[croadyman]

It's a done deal imo. For the first time since Carrick, we will have a mega talented midfielder that can do it all from a playmaking, recycling possession and smart positioning perspective. He will be one of the best mids in the World for us under ETH.

Wow that is a big call, so you reckon he will be up there with De Bruyne and Thiago

 

[bringbackbebe]

Scholes was a poor defender, a really poor defender. And not a DM, let alone an elite DM.

Opposition were scared of his tackles though and basically passed the ball to him out of that fear

 

[croadyman]

Now he is definitely tier 1 for Barca which is worrying to say the least, going with same stance as Santi Ovalle too.

 

[JPRouve]

Opposition were scared of his tackles though and basically passed the ball to him out of that fear

Wouldn't you?

 

[therealtboy]

Oh come on, who cares what United fans from around the globe think of the city of Manchester. Rotterdam is an ugly shithole, doesn't mean I love Feyenoord any less.

Oh no you didn't

 

[Remember the geese]

Wow that is a big call, so you reckon he will be up there with De Bruyne and Thiago

Surely not the mighty Thiago.

 

[Deleted 112447]

Wow that is a big call, so you reckon he will be up there with De Bruyne and Thiago

De Bruyne plays in a very different position though, so how can we compare?

As a playmaker, pressing resistant collects the ball from the back and gets forward at times, yes, he will be one of the best in the World.

 

[Dumbstar]

Surely not the mighty Thiago.

Van de Beek then?

 

[phelans shorts]

Ronaldo was on very comparable wages to Messi, too. Did he set a precedent for Madrid and Juve? Didn't seem to ruin them. If it did, would you have blamed Ronaldo equally for taking equally extraordinary wages? And even if it does set a precedent for both Messi and Ronaldo, they club still has to responsibly manage their outgoings, period. If you pay Michael Jordan more to stay with the Bulls, then you cut costs elsewhere, not pay the rest more and more even if they desire it. The transfer fees paid by Barcelona are a large reason why they're in this mess, on top of accumulating wages for a squad that was bloated.

Yes I would, why would I make an exception for somebody that I hate?

They all live in Salford.

I mean, by 20 yards. They’re off Deansgate but the river happens to pass under the bridge right outside their door.

 

[croadyman]

De Bruyne plays in a very different position though, so how can we compare?

As a playmaker, pressing resistant collects the ball from the back and gets forward at times, yes, he will be one of the best in the World.

Yeah good point actually

 

[prateik]

I don't understand the point of these tweets..
The club has to be in contact with FDJ and must know if he is open to move or not..
Both clubs know.. Some journo tweeting that FDJ wants to stay cant have an impact on the valuations.

Barca mouthpieces saying he wants to stay but was sold because they had to sell is hardly going to go down well with their fans (if they want him to stay, if not, the whole thing is irrelevant)

If the reports were about him wanting to leave then it would be to prepare their fans.. but what exactly do these tweets about him wanting to stay at barca achieve?

 

[DevilRed]

I think this was agreed to already some time ago.

Might be some minor details in the payment structure etc. to sort out, but the tchouameni transfer basically set the market rate.

 

[KiD MoYeS]

There is no way United aren negotiating for De Jong if they feel he won't cone.

 

[croadyman]

There is no way United aren negotiating for De Jong if they feel he won't cone.

Yeah that's what I keep telling myself when seeing tweets from those Barca guys

 

[arthurka]

Am I the only one who thinks we would've walked away if he didn't want to come? I am positive he has given ETH positive feedback, hence why we are still after him.

 

[DSG]

A huge part of ETH’s remit is to coach the shit out of the existing players we have, not just sign new ones. I know this gets a lot of grief on here, and that makes me hesitate to say it, but Fred is a starter for Brasil. One of the best three national sides on the planet. He’s not a shit player. He’s got an incredible engine. I genuinely believe that ETH can make a Fred/De Jong double pivot work very, very well. It all comes down to coaching, systems, and players understanding what’s expected of them.

Before we signed Bruno Fernandes, it was obvious he was a special player, he combined an incredible work rate, a will to win, determination, and an eye for goal. Gradually most of that has slipped away, mainly through a sheer lack of coaching, and a general acceptance of apathy and mediocrity within the club. After a pre-season friendly against Sporting three years ago, Klopp described Bruno as an incredible player. The perfect player I think he said. Said he could do everything and was everywhere, all the time. He wanted to sign him but they didn’t have the budget. And that was the player we saw when he came, but it just ebbed away.

I honestly believe that a Fred, De Jong, Fernandes midfield, playing to its full potential in a properly coached team, would be truly superb. But it all comes back to coaching. Yes, I want us to see a few new faces this summer, but I am far more interested to see what ETH can do with our existing squad. The cycle of just replacing players and managers when it all goes tits up has to change.

At various points all of Rashford, Sancho, Fred, Bruno, Shaw, and Varane have all been highly coveted and/or top class. A really good manager should get a tune out of those players, because they are good players. Very good players, playing in shit systems, in a toxic environment. Whether they are part of that toxicity is almost irrelevant. A good manager and leader should be able to turn that around and get their buy in. Mostly, anyway.

We spent 80m on Maguire. He was never in a million years worth that. We’ve all seen he has the turning circle of a small oil tanker, but he was also never the completely useless lump of hilarious lard he has been for the last 12 months. He was a good player with some obvious deficiencies. Now he is a terrible player with almost no redeeming qualities? No, don’t buy it. Again, he should be able to be coached into some decent form, because there was a time when he was pretty good.

A player like De Jong is the catalyst to bring the idea and system together. To knit it all together from the middle of the park. He will have a multiplying effect on those around him. Like Carrick used to. The system, the approach, the understanding, instructions, and mentality are always more important than the player. That’s how the best managers extract incredible things from teams that are far greater than the sum of their parts. Fergie and Klopp are prime illustrators of this. We came third once with Giggs and O’Shea playing central midfield for half the season.

The squad needs a gradual overhaul for sure, an aggressive ball playing Center half would be another catalysing piece, and I think a versatile inverted, left footed right sided forward would be a very sensible addition. But the real success next season will come down to the coaching of our existing squad.

I’d like to see a serious squad built over the next 3-4 transfer windows, than a rush to fill spots and replace broken parts that may not actually be broken. Just poorly serviced. This summer getting 2-3 quality additions, then giving ETH 12 months to indoctrinate his ideas, methodology, rebuild the culture, and make a truly studious, informed analysis of who works and who doesn’t, and then hitting the market more aggressively, is the way to go IMO. It’s not flashy, it doesn’t satisfy the muppets, but it’s the desperately needed strategic approach that has been lacking for nearly a decade.

When you understand the system, you understand the player you need. That’s when you can start to use data analytics to make better recruitment decisions, and stop with this YouTube, eye test scouting nonsense. There are constantly players emerging who are on the cusp of becoming top talents. Where was Tchouameni two years ago, or Bellingham, or Haaland 3 years ago (we missed him on two moves), or Declan Rice 3 years ago. There are loads more and there will be loads more. But it’s hard to buy these players speculatively, thinking “well they may turn out great but we don’t have a plan to currently use them, so let’s watch them develop elsewhere to prove themselves and then spend 100m if they make it”. I know we tried with Bellingham, and sort of half arsed tried with Haaland, but they both went to clubs that knew what they were getting and most importantly how they would use them. That’s no coincidence. All the data analytics in the world don’t mean anything if you don’t know how you play or what you really need.


That is ETH’s job next season. And that’s why I support his pursuit of De Jong. Not because he’s a top player, because top players don’t mean a thing in a poorly coached and unstructured side, but because he knows exactly how he wants to use him, how he wants him to play, and where he fits in.

A lot to unpack.

The combination of Ole’s poor start to the season and Ralf’s disastrous reign as manager has many pointing the finger solely at the players. I think poor performances were partially the fault of the players, but in general, players want to play well and get better. For the entire team to collectively say “we’re going to play like shite on purpose” and devalue themselves in the transfer market, affect their own wages, their legacy, and finally the vitriol from the fans is a simpleton’s point of view.

So, I agree, that many parts of this squad are salvageable. And we hired ETH to get them to the form we know they have in them because we’ve seen it.

For de Jong and Fred in the pivotFred plays further forward with Brazil, more like an attack dog, breaking up play, pressing, and he has either Casemiro or Fabinho behind him. Casemiro is a master of positioning and the tactical foul, and Fabinho is an elite distributor (Casemiro is a damn good distributor too). Those two sit in front of the back 4 and rarely venture forward. Fred is given license to scramble all over the pitch and Lucas Paqueta gets forward as well (he’s more of a 10). On paper, if de Jong sits in front of the back 4 and Fred has license to roam, Bruno plays the role of Lucas, maybe it works. FDJ is a brilliant passer and makes great runs from deep as well, so you take the best part of his game and sacrifice it?

I have no confidence that Fred has the discipline to sit in front of the back 4. And he’s a mistake prone passer of the ball.

If we bring in deJong, it will be fascinating to see how he is used by Ten Hag.

 

[avgp_1]

I think both sides are giving out statements to strong arm the other.

United with their walking away threat and Barca now stating how De Jong wants to stay a year longer

 

[croadyman]

Am I the only one who thinks we would've walked away if he didn't want to come? I am positive he has given ETH positive feedback, hence why we are still after him.

If these Barca sources weren't proven then wouldn't feel concerned by their tweets

 

[Josep Dowling]

I mean he’s been earning £350k a week. I doubt buying a house in Barcelona is going to be an issue for him.

 

[Remember the geese]

Van de Beek then?

Yeah De Bruyne or Van de Beek

 

[Josep Dowling]

Am I the only one who thinks we would've walked away if he didn't want to come? I am positive he has given ETH positive feedback, hence why we are still after him.

If we haven’t walked away now he has clearly said he’s happy to join. Usual Twitter types tying to make out they have sources near to the players. Anyone can write half the stuff written if you had the time and could be bothered.

 

[DSG]

Might need to consider whether VDB can be converted to play in Schone's role. Schone was more winger or attacking mid before 2016/2017 season.

VdB has been truly abysmal in that pivot role. It’s one thing to have Schone there in a league where Ajax is 3 times the size of any other club and, comparatively, has quality all over the pitch. I don’t think that configuration works in the PL. You’re defending against the likes of KdB, Silva, Mount, Thiago, in those areas, full internationals pretty much every week.

 

[KirkDuyt]

Oh no you didn't

Come on, it is. Not the city's fault obviously (the Germans mostly), but it's not exactly pretty.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

VdB has been truly abysmal in that pivot role. It’s one thing to have Schone there in a league where Ajax is 3 times the size of any other club and, comparatively, has quality all over the pitch. I don’t think that configuration works in the PL. You’re defending against the likes of KdB, Silva, Mount, Thiago, in those areas, full internationals pretty much every week.

We don’t play against chelsea, Liverpool and city every week.

 

[Reapersoul20]

Joan Laporta: “If our economic situation requires the sale of an important player, we are READY for that.” #fcblive



Prepping the Barca fans for Dest departure

 

[JPRouve]

VdB has been truly abysmal in that pivot role. It’s one thing to have Schone there in a league where Ajax is 3 times the size of any other club and, comparatively, has quality all over the pitch. I don’t think that configuration works in the PL. You’re defending against the likes of KdB, Silva, Mount, Thiago, in those areas, full internationals pretty much every week.

This caliber of player is faced around 6 to maybe 8 weeks per years in the league.

 

[bosnian_red]

Wow that is a big call, so you reckon he will be up there with De Bruyne and Thiago

He's instantly going to be up there with them under Ten Hag IMO. De Bruyne still the best, but Frenkie would be instant top 3.

 

[cyberman]

I think both sides are giving out statements to strong arm the other.

United with their walking away threat and Barca now stating how De Jong wants to stay a year longer

Unless he bought a the house within the last 2 weeks then I can’t see how this changes anything. The player himself has been saying he wants to stay all along

 

[DeGea’sFeet]

I stayed in Manchester for 3 weeks and I can understand why she might not like it, food is crap, the wheather is horrible but the people are generally nice.
This is why having an a good English core might be nice.
My issue though is why do City South American and Spanish contingent don't complain about this?

That’s a great point, although they did lose Ferran Torres to Barca, they’ve kept most of their established stars and without being desperate about it. Eg Aguero stayed despite his family being based in Barcelona or Madrid.

I think players come and if the project, club structure etc is good and the club is successful then they stay. Might also be that always falling short of the CL keeps the players there in the hope that they can win it for City and become huge legends, who knows if they ever win it then we might see more players start “looking new challenges” abroad.

 

[sillwuka]

Okay he bought a house but things change in life - sell it on for a tidy profit now

 

[roseguy64]

A huge part of ETH’s remit is to coach the shit out of the existing players we have, not just sign new ones. I know this gets a lot of grief on here, and that makes me hesitate to say it, but Fred is a starter for Brasil. One of the best three national sides on the planet. He’s not a shit player. He’s got an incredible engine. I genuinely believe that ETH can make a Fred/De Jong double pivot work very, very well. It all comes down to coaching, systems, and players understanding what’s expected of them.

Before we signed Bruno Fernandes, it was obvious he was a special player, he combined an incredible work rate, a will to win, determination, and an eye for goal. Gradually most of that has slipped away, mainly through a sheer lack of coaching, and a general acceptance of apathy and mediocrity within the club. After a pre-season friendly against Sporting three years ago, Klopp described Bruno as an incredible player. The perfect player I think he said. Said he could do everything and was everywhere, all the time. He wanted to sign him but they didn’t have the budget. And that was the player we saw when he came, but it just ebbed away.

I honestly believe that a Fred, De Jong, Fernandes midfield, playing to its full potential in a properly coached team, would be truly superb. But it all comes back to coaching. Yes, I want us to see a few new faces this summer, but I am far more interested to see what ETH can do with our existing squad. The cycle of just replacing players and managers when it all goes tits up has to change.

At various points all of Rashford, Sancho, Fred, Bruno, Shaw, and Varane have all been highly coveted and/or top class. A really good manager should get a tune out of those players, because they are good players. Very good players, playing in shit systems, in a toxic environment. Whether they are part of that toxicity is almost irrelevant. A good manager and leader should be able to turn that around and get their buy in. Mostly, anyway.

We spent 80m on Maguire. He was never in a million years worth that. We’ve all seen he has the turning circle of a small oil tanker, but he was also never the completely useless lump of hilarious lard he has been for the last 12 months. He was a good player with some obvious deficiencies. Now he is a terrible player with almost no redeeming qualities? No, don’t buy it. Again, he should be able to be coached into some decent form, because there was a time when he was pretty good.

A player like De Jong is the catalyst to bring the idea and system together. To knit it all together from the middle of the park. He will have a multiplying effect on those around him. Like Carrick used to. The system, the approach, the understanding, instructions, and mentality are always more important than the player. That’s how the best managers extract incredible things from teams that are far greater than the sum of their parts. Fergie and Klopp are prime illustrators of this. We came third once with Giggs and O’Shea playing central midfield for half the season.

The squad needs a gradual overhaul for sure, an aggressive ball playing Center half would be another catalysing piece, and I think a versatile inverted, left footed right sided forward would be a very sensible addition. But the real success next season will come down to the coaching of our existing squad.

I’d like to see a serious squad built over the next 3-4 transfer windows, than a rush to fill spots and replace broken parts that may not actually be broken. Just poorly serviced. This summer getting 2-3 quality additions, then giving ETH 12 months to indoctrinate his ideas, methodology, rebuild the culture, and make a truly studious, informed analysis of who works and who doesn’t, and then hitting the market more aggressively, is the way to go IMO. It’s not flashy, it doesn’t satisfy the muppets, but it’s the desperately needed strategic approach that has been lacking for nearly a decade.

When you understand the system, you understand the player you need. That’s when you can start to use data analytics to make better recruitment decisions, and stop with this YouTube, eye test scouting nonsense. There are constantly players emerging who are on the cusp of becoming top talents. Where was Tchouameni two years ago, or Bellingham, or Haaland 3 years ago (we missed him on two moves), or Declan Rice 3 years ago. There are loads more and there will be loads more. But it’s hard to buy these players speculatively, thinking “well they may turn out great but we don’t have a plan to currently use them, so let’s watch them develop elsewhere to prove themselves and then spend 100m if they make it”. I know we tried with Bellingham, and sort of half arsed tried with Haaland, but they both went to clubs that knew what they were getting and most importantly how they would use them. That’s no coincidence. All the data analytics in the world don’t mean anything if you don’t know how you play or what you really need.

That is ETH’s job next season. And that’s why I support his pursuit of De Jong. Not because he’s a top player, because top players don’t mean a thing in a poorly coached and unstructured side, but because he knows exactly how he wants to use him, how he wants him to play, and where he fits in.

I agree with a lot of what's been said here.

 

[allen7]

Still worry about that Santi Ovalle who's meant to be tier 1 for Barca adamant he's not leaving at all.

Now he is definitely tier 1 for Barca which is worrying to say the least, going with same stance as Santi Ovalle too.

Barca PR work and a negotiating tactic, its very clear that things are moving behind the scenes with player agreeing to join us. So they try to increase the value of the player through quotes like these. Barcelona knew they won’t be able go sign Lewa or register Kessie unless this deal happens so they’ll do whatever to increase frenkie’s price tag.
So their journalists going to milk it because they know that we throw money ridiculously on players.

And importantly, Athletic (laurie), BBC (stone) aren’t going to say something unless they're beyond certain.

 

[roseguy64]

€60m + €20m was reported the day before. No more credible than this guess that will never be proven. BBC say no bid.

I know both of those things. But the use of the word big in transfer journalism is way too subjective to argue over. I also don't really care enough to argue over Romano. It's just lame to always bring up stuff about him in threads because it comes off as contrarian rather than being genuine. The majority of people don't care and it's just like the lower league tweets, arguing over nothing.

He wasn’t even close to be being first with this information though?

He’s also contradicted him else in that tweet. He’s been banging on for the last month that De Jong is only interested in Barcelona or CL football and now suddenly Romano is saying that De Jong has never indicated his desire to anyone. He’s basically admitted that he’s been making it up.

I have no idea what he means by indicating desire. Far be it from me to speak for him when he's not made it clear. You're well within your rights to have that interpretation.

I've not got anything against Romano but he was not the first one with that info, if you're talking about the reporting of the bid:

Also, 60+10 is not the same as 60+20.

 

[El Jefe]

Scholes was a poor defender, a really poor defender. And not a DM, let alone an elite DM.

He was a poor tackler but not a poor defender by any means. He had great positional discipline and the necessary bite to play in midfield. Wasn't too dissimilar to Thiago or Modric in a defensive sense. He wasn't a DM sure but always carried out his defensive work in a solid manner except for his crunching tackles.

His performance at the Nou Camp in 2008 is up there as one of our best defensive performances from a midfielder ever.

 

[JPRouve]

He was a poor tackler but not a poor defender by any means. He had great positional discipline and the necessary bite to play in midfield. Wasn't too dissimilar to Thiago or Modric in a defensive sense. He wasn't a DM sure but always carried out his defensive work in a solid manner except for his crunching tackles.

His performance at the Nou Camp in 2008 is up there as one of our best defensive performances from a midfielder ever.

He was a poor defender and against the best opponents SAF would either bench him or add a midfielder.

 

[devilish]

They're both rubbish. Maguire was around as good in his good season as Lukaku was last year. Rom was also about as good at West Brom as Maguire was at Leicester.

If Maguire went to play in Italy, they'd be raving about him there too, just as they did Smalling and Lukaku - because the extra half second you get in Italy, flatters players with weaker technical ability.

No

 

[DSG]

We don’t play against chelsea, Liverpool and city every week.

This caliber of player is faced around 6 to maybe 8 weeks per years in the league.

Okay, you’ve got Emile Smith Rowe and Odegaard, Madison and Tielemans, Lanzini / Soucek /Rice, Neves / Moutinho, Bentancur on the Spurs. Hell, I’d be nervous having him run against the likes of Conor Gallagher.

There is absolutely nothing , and I mean nothing, in his performances for United or Everton, that show that he has the physicality, speed, confidence, or defensive mindset to play at the pivot with de Jong in a 4-2-3-1. He’s played roughly 2000 min for us and another 500 for Everton.

Donny Van de Beek’s future / ceiling in this club is solely as a squad option as the No.10. At this point, he’s a poor man’s Shinji Kagawa.

Is he a terrible player? No. But he’s best off playing in Spain for Espanyol or Serie A for Fiorentino, much slower and less physical leagues.

 

[JPRouve]

Okay, you’ve got Emile Smith Rowe and Odegaard, Madison and Tielemans, Lanzini / Soucek /Rice, Neves / Moutinho, Bentancur on the Spurs. Hell, I’d be nervous having him run against the likes of Conor Gallagher.

There is absolutely nothing , and I mean nothing, in his performances for United or Everton, that show that he has the physicality, speed, confidence, or defensive mindset to play at the pivot with de Jong in a 4-2-3-1. He’s played roughly 2000 min for us and another 500 for Everton.

Donny Van de Beek’s future / ceiling in this club is solely as a squad option as the No.10. At this point, he’s a poor man’s Shinji Kagawa.

Is he a terrible player? No. But he’s best off playing in Spain for Espanyol or Serie A for Fiorentino, much slower and less physical leagues.

These midfielders are not of the same caliber than the one you listed earlier and most of these aren't special at all, they have also generally performed worse than our much maligned midfielders. The way some of you are speaking with a relegation attack, defense, midfield and goalkeeper yet we easily outform most of the teams the players you mentioned played for.

 

[Schnappo]

I know both of those things. But the use of the word big in transfer journalism is way too subjective to argue over. I also don't really care enough to argue over Romano. It's just lame to always bring up stuff about him in threads because it comes off as contrarian rather than being genuine. The majority of people don't care and it's just like the lower league tweets, arguing over nothing.


I have no idea what he means by indicating desire. Far be it from me to speak for him when he's not made it clear. You're well within your rights to have that interpretation.


Also, 60+10 is not the same as 60+20.

Sorry I've no idea what you're trying to suggest here; Romano didn't get the initial figures correct? The source in the tweet I posted was the first (at least to my knowledge) to know anything about a bid.

 

[Red the Bear]

It's like when people say certain players couldn't handle living abroad.
As if they'll be in their own in some squalid corner of town, trying to cut it down the local bartering market.

Yeah, it's getting ridiculous by now.