[Kostov]

*the two goals

What about the 2 goals? Did he make a defensive splitting pass or some incredible block or interception? We score two goals one of which was a mayor feck up by Villareal, the other one an incredible piece of shooting by Sancho.

Should we credit McTominay for that "incredible" pass in the build up for the second goal? Take a look at the bigger picture, so when we go the usual way of loosing a game because we have no midfield, won't be so surprising for you.

worst post of the year

Thank man, where do I get my medal?

 

[pacifictheme]

What about the 2 goals? Did he make a defensive splitting pass or some incredible block or interception? We score two goals one of which was a mayor feck up by Villareal, the other one an incredible piece of shooting by Sancho.

Should we credit McTominay for that "incredible" pass in the build up for the second goal? Take a look at the bigger picture, so when we go the usual way of loosing a game because we have no midfield, won't be so surprising for you.

The first goal was a direct result of him pressing the opposition player. He caused that "major(?) feck up".

 

[Chesterlestreet]

He caused that "major(?) feck up".

Er, no.

Their keeper caused it. Fred reacted well to it, though.

ETA The keeper makes a very poor choice. The whole area right outside the box is swarming with United players - it's a stupidly risky pass which he attempts for no good reason (he isn't under any immediate pressure himself).

 

[Real Name]

Very good yesterday, constantly on the ball, constantly making passes, that is when we did get the ball, after 30 minute mark.
Defensively solid too.
His pressing made them make a mistake resulting in Ronaldo goal.

 

[Kostov]

The first goal was a direct result of him pressing the opposition player. He caused that "major(?) feck up".

Of course Fred contributed to the major feck up and he gets credit from me for that, I just think the rest of the contribution was not good enough.

EDIT: Just for an example, he got dispossessed 3 times, do you know what that means for a deep positioned midfielder like himself?

 

[pacifictheme]

Of course Fred contributed to the major feck up and he gets credit from me for that, I just think the rest of the contribution was not good enough.

EDIT: Just for an example, he got dispossessed 3 times, do you know what that means for a deep positioned midfielder like himself?

In the post I quoted it sounded very much like you were not giving him any credit at all.

 

[Devil may care]

In your head probably. Don’t cry if that’s not the case. Mctominay is pathetically bad. Put Declan rice in this team and Fred goes up a level, Mctominay stays the same looking to hide. The bloke won’t even start for Southampton ahead of Armstrong, Romeu and JWP.

You make it sound like I rate McTominay when I've clearly said neither are good enough, as far as whether any other manager will view McTominay differently, well I remember people thought Ole would barely use him and he was an ever present, but keep hope alive!

Fred is definitely a starting calibre midfielder, don't blame Fred for a managers poor structural and organisational capabilities. Fred can definitely play the number 8, a number 8 doesn't have to be attacking, just has to move the ball from defense to the attacking positions, Liverpool have won the league and UCL with Henderson Fabinho and Gigi in midfield, which one is the attacking creative number 8 ?

Also this has probably been mentioned but you've obviously never watched Brazil play, Fred keeps Fabinho out of the team and is widely loved in Brazil and is probably at the moment their best performing midfielder (which includes 4x UCL winner Casemiro).

https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...l-news/fred-dani-alves-brazil-united-21914241

I've seen Brazil play, the current Brazil side are fairly crap to watch and Fred being a regular for them is irrelevant to the PL, I guess Heskey should have been signed by United as there was a time he was in every England team. As far as an attacking #8 goes, one of your midfielders has to be a good passer, if you pair Fred with a DM then that's two cloggers together, Liverpool have 2 good deep passers in Fabinho and Henderson, and Wijnaldum was a dynamic, attacking #8, Fred is none of these things, I feel like history is being rewritten post after post, like bizzaro world has taken over the Caf, the place is routinely divided but one thing most agreed on was that midfield was in desperate need of an upgrade, suddenly it's just McTominay and Fred is actually brilliant because he had a decent half hour against Villareal, despite being trash all season.

 

[stevoc]

This season Fred is actually blowing Kante out of the water in his stats.

Fred's made 224 pressures to Kante's 93, with 69 to 31 in Def 3rd, 127 to 38 in Mid 3rd, 28 to 24 in Att 3rd.

He's made 24 tackles to Kante's 15. He's made 19 blocks overall to Kante's 10, & blocked 4 shots to Kante's 1. He has higher interceptions than Kante (12 to 9), & also made 14 clearances to Kante's 2.

His passing stats are better. He's completed 408 passes to Kante's 269, with a total distance almost 2x higher (7616 yards to 4363), with passing distance towards goal much higher (1937 to 1278). He's completed 166 short passes to Kante's 142, 188 medium passes to Kante's 107, & 47 long passes to Kante's 17. He's also completed more passes under pressure (89 to 61), and made 14 switches of the play to Kante's 4.

His possession stats again are better. He's had 584 touches to Kante's 384, whilst having more ball touches (355 to 272). The only stats Kante is superior are him having more successful dribbles (10 to 3), & he's carried the ball further (1436 to 1232).

Considering the narrative surrounding Fred by fans/pundits/media, doesn't it suggest he gets seriously unfairly singled out? If Fred is supposed to be so poor, how are those stats possible?

What constitutes a ball touch?

 

[11101]

Er, no.

Their keeper caused it. Fred reacted well to it, though.

ETA The keeper makes a very poor choice. The whole area right outside the box is swarming with United players - it's a stupidly risky pass which he attempts for no good reason (he isn't under any immediate pressure himself).

Funny how nobody ever says that when it's De Gea or Maguire giving an absolute hospital pass to Fred or one of our other midfielders.

 

[Devil may care]

What constitutes a ball touch?

Show Captain Benson on the Teddy bear.

 

[stevoc]

There's a weird internal battle going on, on the Caf where some have decided to select one of McFred to champion and blame their consistent feckery on the other, newsflash! Neither are good enough to be starters if we are ever to challenge for a PL or CL, tonight Fred was ok, as was McTominay, both played a part in the 2nd goal.

Well that definitely happens in here, everyone from Solskjaer, Matic, Pogba to McTominay has been blamed for Fred's poor form this season. Which may be true to varying degrees.

The interesting thing I've noticed though is people rightly point out that Fred is essentially being played out of position as he isn't a DM which means he isn't as effective as he potentially could be and contributes to his poor performances. Most of the same people don't seem to give McTominay the same benefit of the doubt though as McTominay isn't a DM either.

 

[Devil may care]

Well that definitely happens in here, everyone from Solskjaer, Matic, Pogba to McTominay has been blamed for Fred's poor form this season. Which may be true to varying degrees.

The interesting thing I've noticed though is people rightly point out that Fred is essentially being played out of position as he isn't a DM which means he isn't as effective as he potentially could be and contributes to his poor performances. Most of the same people don't seem to give McTominay the same benefit of the doubt though as McTominay isn't a DM either.

The cult of the player is rife on here with posters regularly playing Captain save a ho for some bang average player we've collected over the past few years, it's full on defend the castle walls stuff with them as well, even Lindelof has his acolytes. I agree neither Fred or McTominay are DM's, they are both Jack of all trades master of none #8's who work hard.

 

[Foxbatt]

He is not a world beater and yes we need an upgrade on him. Some days he has been horrible but some days he has been needed. But at the end of the day there are two players who can play in his position in the way we set up. That is Fred and McTominay. Give me Fred any day instead of McTominay.

 

[the_cliff]

I've seen Brazil play, the current Brazil side are fairly crap to watch and Fred being a regular for them is irrelevant to the PL, I guess Heskey should have been signed by United as there was a time he was in every England team. As far as an attacking #8 goes, one of your midfielders has to be a good passer, if you pair Fred with a DM then that's two cloggers together, Liverpool have 2 good deep passers in Fabinho and Henderson, and Wijnaldum was a dynamic, attacking #8, Fred is none of these things, I feel like history is being rewritten post after post, like bizzaro world has taken over the Caf, the place is routinely divided but one thing most agreed on was that midfield was in desperate need of an upgrade, suddenly it's just McTominay and Fred is actually brilliant because he had a decent half hour against Villareal, despite being trash all season.

Heskey played for England at a time when there was no decent alternative and no decent competition. It's beside the point either way, when Fred is keeping somebody you'd call a a good Deep passer (in Fabinho) out of the Brazil team. Let's just compare Fred and Fabinho in the league last season, Fred had more goals, the same amount of assists (0), created more chances, had more through balls, more interceptions, nearly double the amount of tackles and the same amount of blocks. Fabinho played one more game than Fred.

Fabinho had a higher pass completion percentage than Fred in the league which is not surprising comparing the midfield partners between the 2, Fred and Fabinho with Brazil for Example, both playing with Casemiro Fred has higher stats in those as well.

Now in terms of bizzaro world, the consensus during the summer was Fred needed a solid DM to play with, we didn't need to sign 2 midfielders only one defensive midfielder to replace Mctominay, which is still the majority consensus even now. We were linked with Neves, Rice, Bissouma etc. who in your opinion were they replacing in the starting 11, Fred or Mctominay ?

 

[CloneMC16]

There's a weird internal battle going on, on the Caf where some have decided to select one of McFred to champion and blame their consistent feckery on the other, newsflash! Neither are good enough to be starters if we are ever to challenge for a PL or CL, tonight Fred was ok, as was McTominay, both played a part in the 2nd goal.

Yeah, and I choose Fred as my fighter!

Well that definitely happens in here, everyone from Solskjaer, Matic, Pogba to McTominay has been blamed for Fred's poor form this season. Which may be true to varying degrees.

The interesting thing I've noticed though is people rightly point out that Fred is essentially being played out of position as he isn't a DM which means he isn't as effective as he potentially could be and contributes to his poor performances. Most of the same people don't seem to give McTominay the same benefit of the doubt though as McTominay isn't a DM either.

For me, the main reason is because of the way McT positions himself on the field. He too often puts himself in positions that makes it impossible for him to receive the ball. His touch stats almost every game back up the eye test. He routinely touches the ball far less often than Fred. Even in the odd game he plays deeper than Fred (like yesterday), he still has less touches of the ball. I think this is a major issue. There are too many games where I feel like McT isn't really doing anything. He's just an extra body.

His passing stats are also quite a bit worse than Fred. McT is capable of some decent passes through lines. He did play a very nice ball through to Ronaldo yesterday. He also hit a couple good switches to the other flank, but he does it less often than Fred.

I do believe that both of them should be upgraded, but Fred is better player than a lot of our fans give him credit for. Maybe because the Caf has threads dedicated to each player, I see Fred getting some credit I think he deserves in this thread. The average fan on Twitter absolutely hates him. If the average fan had to choose one, I think McT would win by quite a lot, and it's really difficult for me to see why that is. Part of that could be because you have people like Keane, routinely criticising Fred on TV. This is while calling McT, "young and learning his trade". Even though the guy is 25 years old in 2 weeks.

I don't think we will buy two starting midfielders in one summer to replace both. If one is to be upgraded, I think it has to be McT first. A proper #6 will help the rest of our midfielders to perform at a higher level. I think Fred would start more often next to a new midfielder, but McT will still get some starts.

 

[Van Piorsing]

He is not a world beater and yes we need an upgrade on him. Some days he has been horrible but some days he has been needed. But at the end of the day there are two players who can play in his position in the way we set up. That is Fred and McTominay. Give me Fred any day instead of McTominay.

At some point Fred would be decent sub to unleash on tired opponent. Still we're probably in need of creating entirely different midfield setup in which we could implement Mejbri in near future.

 

[the_cliff]

Yeah, and I choose Fred as my fighter!


For me, the main reason is because of the way McT positions himself on the field. He too often puts himself in positions that makes it impossible for him to receive the ball. His touch stats almost every game back up the eye test. He routinely touches the ball far less often than Fred. Even in the odd game he plays deeper than Fred (like yesterday), he still has less touches of the ball. I think this is a major issue. There are too many games where I feel like McT isn't really doing anything. He's just an extra body.

His passing stats are also quite a bit worse than Fred. McT is capable of some decent passes through lines. He did play a very nice ball through to Ronaldo yesterday. He also hit a couple good switches to the other flank, but he does it less often than Fred.

I do believe that both of them should be upgraded, but Fred is better player than a lot of our fans give him credit for. Maybe because the Caf has threads dedicated to each player, I see Fred getting some credit I think he deserves in this thread. The average fan on Twitter absolutely hates him. If the average fan had to choose one, I think McT would win by quite a lot, and it's really difficult for me to see why that is.

I don't think we will buy two starting midfielders in one summer to replace both. If one is to be upgraded, I think it has to be McT first. A proper #6 will help the rest of our midfielders to perform at a higher level. I think Fred would start more often next to a new midfielder, but McT will still get some starts.

This is what I've been trying to tell people for a while, Mctominay for a deep lying midfielder does not progress the ball anywhere near enough as he should do and hardly ever shows for an option as a midfielder should. Despite playing similar minutes to Fred last season he had 534 less touches which equals to around 20 touches less per game. In fact, Mctominay also averages less touches than Bruno, AWB, Maguire, Fred, Shaw, Rashford and Pogba. Compare that to Liverpool where Fabinho, Gigi, Thiago and Henderson are all in the top 6 in touches per game (with their fullbacks).

 

[stevoc]

Yeah, and I choose Fred as my fighter!


For me, the main reason is because of the way McT positions himself on the field. He too often puts himself in positions that makes it impossible for him to receive the ball. His touch stats almost every game back up the eye test. He routinely touches the ball far less often than Fred. Even in the odd game he plays deeper than Fred (like yesterday), he still has less touches of the ball. I think this is a major issue. There are too many games where I feel like McT isn't really doing anything. He's just an extra body.

His passing stats are also quite a bit worse than Fred. McT is capable of some decent passes through lines. He did play a very nice ball through to Ronaldo yesterday. He also hit a couple good switches to the other flank, but he does it less often than Fred.

I do believe that both of them should be upgraded, but Fred is better player than a lot of our fans give him credit for. Maybe because the Caf has threads dedicated to each player, I see Fred getting some credit I think he deserves in this thread. The average fan on Twitter absolutely hates him. If the average fan had to choose one, I think McT would win by quite a lot, and it's really difficult for me to see why that is. Part of that could be because you have people like Keane, routinely criticising Fred on TV. This is while calling McT, "young and learning his trade". Even though the guy is 25 years old in 2 weeks.

I don't think we will buy two starting midfielders in one summer to replace both. If one is to be upgraded, I think it has to be McT first. A proper #6 will help the rest of our midfielders to perform at a higher level. I think Fred would start more often next to a new midfielder, but McT will still get some starts.

I don't necessarily disagree with any of that but much of it in my opinion stems from him not being a great player to begin with and then being asked to play in an unnatural role for him. He isn't a DM and much like Fred I think he'd be much more suited to playing in a midfield 3. But as I said with a lot of people in here he doesn't seem to get the same benefit of the doubt.

As to why average fan would choose McTominay over Fred well no doubt there's some academy bias at play. But also as you've highlighted in an average game Fred will be much more involved, having the ball a lot more and making a lot more passes. So there is more opportunity for his mistakes (of which there have been many this season) to stick in people's minds. Couple that with his let's be honest awful shooting (conversely McTom scores some great goals) which leads to some rating Fred as the worse of the two.

I don't see us buying two midfielders next summer either so it will most likely be Fred starting beside a new DM next season with McTom being a squad player. Hopefully we can upgrade on both in the next 18-24 months though as I think both would be very good squad/rotation options to have.

 

[Devil may care]

Heskey played for England at a time when there was no decent alternative and no decent competition. It's beside the point either way, when Fred is keeping somebody you'd call a a good Deep passer (in Fabinho) out of the Brazil team. Let's just compare Fred and Fabinho in the league last season, Fred had more goals, the same amount of assists (0), created more chances, had more through balls, more interceptions, nearly double the amount of tackles and the same amount of blocks. Fabinho played one more game than Fred.

Fabinho had a higher pass completion percentage than Fred in the league which is not surprising comparing the midfield partners between the 2, Fred and Fabinho with Brazil for Example, both playing with Casemiro Fred has higher stats in those as well.

Now in terms of bizzaro world, the consensus during the summer was Fred needed a solid DM to play with, we didn't need to sign 2 midfielders only one defensive midfielder to replace Mctominay, which is still the majority consensus even now. We were linked with Neves, Rice, Bissouma etc. who in your opinion were they replacing in the starting 11, Fred or Mctominay ?

Stats are the worst argument tool out there, Southgate wouldn't play Grealish over inferior players in the Euros, plenty of managers have favourites who are inferior, we had a manager who preferred Fellaini to Herrera and the recent one preferred Mcfred to Matic, managers do odd shit all the time, and then get fired. If you've watched Fabinho and Fred it's obvious who the better player is, you have to take into context that Fabinho isn't going to have the same defensive stats as Liverpool dominate where as we are offen scrambling around the pitch to survive, its why De Gea has so many MOTM awards, no keeper in the supposed top sides has to make as many saves.

The last part is another change of narrative, the bulk of United fans wanted Rice or Bissouna to replace Matic and be paired with Pogba, and if Pogba goes we'd need a new top #8 to replace him next to the new DM, personally I have said for the last 18 months we needed that regardless as Pogba can't be trusted in a midfield 2 and both Fred and Mctominay aren't good enough.

 

[the_cliff]

Stats are the worst argument tool out there, Southgate wouldn't play Grealish over inferior players in the Euros, plenty of managers have favourites who are inferior, we had a manager who preferred Fellaini to Herrera and the recent one preferred Mcfred to Matic, managers do odd shit all the time, and then get fired. If you've watched Fabinho and Fred it's obvious who the better player is, you have to take into context that Fabinho isn't going to have the same defensive stats as Liverpool dominate where as we are offen scrambling around the pitch to survive, its why De Gea has so many MOTM awards, no keeper in the supposed top sides has to make as many saves.

The last part is another change of narrative, the bulk of United fans wanted Rice or Bissouna to replace Matic and be paired with Pogba, and if Pogba goes we'd need a new top #8 to replace him next to the new DM, personally I have said for the last 18 months we needed that regardless as Pogba can't be trusted in a midfield 2 and both Fred and Mctominay aren't good enough.

See here's the thing, Fred outperforms Fabinho for Brazil, go ask any Brazil fan or Brazil watcher, Fred is not there despite his performances he's there because of his performances. In fact just watch his last game for Brazil against Argentina where he was man of the match.

And your second point is hypocritical in the sense that you say Fabinho's defensive stats are because they dominate possession but at the same time lower Fred for not being a 'good deep passer' like Fabinho when you know for a fact we're nowhere near as well drilled as Liverpool, unless that's Fred's fault ?.

When both play for Brazil with the same midfield partner in Casemiro Fred has outperformed Fabinho and deservedly starts instead of Fabinho.

 

[eire-red]

Stats are the worst argument tool out there, Southgate wouldn't play Grealish over inferior players in the Euros, plenty of managers have favourites who are inferior, we had a manager who preferred Fellaini to Herrera and the recent one preferred Mcfred to Matic, managers do odd shit all the time, and then get fired. If you've watched Fabinho and Fred it's obvious who the better player is, you have to take into context that Fabinho isn't going to have the same defensive stats as Liverpool dominate where as we are offen scrambling around the pitch to survive, its why De Gea has so many MOTM awards, no keeper in the supposed top sides has to make as many saves.

The last part is another change of narrative, the bulk of United fans wanted Rice or Bissouna to replace Matic and be paired with Pogba, and if Pogba goes we'd need a new top #8 to replace him next to the new DM, personally I have said for the last 18 months we needed that regardless as Pogba can't be trusted in a midfield 2 and both Fred and Mctominay aren't good enough.

There were two moments when the tempo was cranking up in the Liverpool vs Arsenal game at the weekend, Arsenal were breaking and twice in a row Fabinho breaks it up, recycles possession and releases TAA down the wing. Eventually, I think the FK that led to the opener resulted from this.

When you have a player like Fabinho in your team, maybe he only needs 3 or 4 key interventions in a game to suck the life out of the opposition. Eventually Arsenal couldn't get out and it drained them. But they got pressed back over a period, and it started with him.

Fred and McTominay don't control the game whatsoever, or allow us to get a foothold and some quality territory. They can win the ball back 10 times, but 10 times it will come straight back. Eventually, on the 11th attempt, they get bypassed and we concede. I know which I'd rather prefer.

 

[VanDeBank]

Stats are the worst argument tool out there, Southgate wouldn't play Grealish over inferior players in the Euros, plenty of managers have favourites who are inferior, we had a manager who preferred Fellaini to Herrera and the recent one preferred Mcfred to Matic, managers do odd shit all the time, and then get fired. If you've watched Fabinho and Fred it's obvious who the better player is, you have to take into context that Fabinho isn't going to have the same defensive stats as Liverpool dominate where as we are offen scrambling around the pitch to survive, its why De Gea has so many MOTM awards, no keeper in the supposed top sides has to make as many saves.

The last part is another change of narrative, the bulk of United fans wanted Rice or Bissouna to replace Matic and be paired with Pogba, and if Pogba goes we'd need a new top #8 to replace him next to the new DM, personally I have said for the last 18 months we needed that regardless as Pogba can't be trusted in a midfield 2 and both Fred and Mctominay aren't good enough.

Well, let's wait and see what a new manager can get out of these players including Scott and Fred.

I think a new no 6 + Bruno with Fred and VDB competing for that no 8 spot would be a very solid midfield.

Fred and VDB have both played brilliantly for their respective NT's. I think we can dispel the myth that Pogba is some sort of top 8 that we desperately need to replace with another luxury player. We've been struggling to fit him into the team alongside Bruno and that isn't solely down to Ole's incompetence. Let's build around Bruno, and we could do with a hard player between the DM and Bruno. Balance and all that good jazz.

 

[the_cliff]

There were two moments when the tempo was cranking up in the Liverpool vs Arsenal game at the weekend, Arsenal were breaking and twice in a row Fabinho breaks it up, recycles possession and releases TAA down the wing. Eventually, I think the FK that led to the opener resulted from this.

When you have a player like Fabinho in your team, maybe he only needs 3 or 4 key interventions in a game to suck the life out of the opposition. Eventually Arsenal couldn't get out and it drained them. But they got pressed back over a period, and it started with him.

Fred and McTominay don't control the game whatsoever, or allow us to get a foothold and some quality territory. They can win the ball back 10 times, but 10 times it will come straight back. Eventually, on the 11th attempt, they get bypassed and we concede. I know which I'd rather prefer.

Whenever Fred breaks up play usually his only option is to play it back to Maguire, you're comparing Liverpool's system to our own and not taking players individual ability into account, yes, Fabinho is the better passer but the way Liverpool play helps him to no end. When has AWB ever even been in a position like Trents after Fred wins the ball back in midfield ? There's never even an option to release AWB in any match I've watched us the whole season You're acting as if Fred constantly turns down the option and gives it away. In fact you can even make the claim that Trent pushes up higher than our RWs never mind AWB.

 

[eire-red]

See here's the thing, Fred outperforms Fabinho for Brazil, go ask any Brazil fan or Brazil watcher, Fred is not there despite his performances he's there because of his performances. In fact just watch his last game for Brazil against Argentina where he was man of the match.

And your second point is hypocritical in the sense that you say Fabinho's defensive stats are because they dominate possession but at the same time lower Fred for not being a 'good deep passer' like Fabinho when you know for a fact we're nowhere near as well drilled as Liverpool, unless that's Fred's fault ?.

When both play for Brazil with the same midfield partner in Casemiro Fred has outperformed Fabinho and deservedly starts instead of Fabinho.

What does it matter what Fred does for Brazil? I care about how he performs for United in the Prem and the CL. I see no evidence whatsoever that he's better than any midfielder in any of the current top 3, I doubt he would get into either of the squads.

The pace, physicality and quality of the PL and CL is on a different level to international football. Same goes for Pogba, people always point to his performances for France. When given the time and space, both are fine at international level.

 

[VanDeBank]

There were two moments when the tempo was cranking up in the Liverpool vs Arsenal game at the weekend, Arsenal were breaking and twice in a row Fabinho breaks it up, recycles possession and releases TAA down the wing. Eventually, I think the FK that led to the opener resulted from this.

When you have a player like Fabinho in your team, maybe he only needs 3 or 4 key interventions in a game to suck the life out of the opposition. Eventually Arsenal couldn't get out and it drained them. But they got pressed back over a period, and it started with him.

Fred and McTominay don't control the game whatsoever, or allow us to get a foothold and some quality territory. They can win the ball back 10 times, but 10 times it will come straight back. Eventually, on the 11th attempt, they get bypassed and we concede. I know which I'd rather prefer.

Remember those times Fred won the ball high up the pitch yesterday? He does that literally ever game. The only difference is now it led to goals and was called out by commentators.

 

[eire-red]

Whenever Fred breaks up play usually his only option is to play it back to Maguire, you're comparing Liverpool's system to our own and not taking players individual ability into account, yes, Fabinho is the better passer but the way Liverpool play helps him to no end. When has AWB ever even been in a position like Trents after Fred wins the ball back in midfield ? There's never even an option to release AWB in any match I've watched us the whole season You're acting as if Fred constantly turns down the option and gives it away. In fact you can even make the claim that Trent pushes up higher than our RWs never mind AWB.

I've seen Fred misplace passes time and time again, I've seen both him and McTominay turn down countless switches of play, or take too many touches, play the ball behind our wingers or full backs and kill our momentum. I've seen them both win the ball back only to be dispossessed straight after, kill counter attacks with poor passes, miss tackles, miss interceptions and give away stupid fouls time and time again.

Our midfield is nowhere near the quality needed, Fred and McTominay would be just as poor in Liverpools midfield as they are in ours. Fabinho would probably be less effective in our midfield, but it would still be a massive upgrade. Our midfield is so bad compared to top clubs across Europe, it's shameful. Part of that is down to Ole I'm sure, and coaching etc etc. But a huge part is down to the fact that Fred, McTominay, Matic are nowhere near the standard. I don't think any system, coaching or whatever the hell else you're implying makes any of them anywhere near good enough.

 

[eire-red]

Remember those times Fred won the ball high up the pitch yesterday? He does that literally ever game. The only difference is now it led to goals and was called out by commentators.

Remember when he got bullied by Demarai Gray and Everton equalised at OT? Remember every game pretty much all season where our midfield has had gaping holes right through the middle?

I would love for Fred to become a reliable player, he has a lot of redeeming qualities that could be useful. I just think it's wishful thinking that he'll ever be up to the standard required, I've seen countless terrible performances from all of our midfield, so I'm hesitant to switch my mind after seeing a decent performance against a toothless Villareal.

 

[the_cliff]

I've seen Fred misplace passes time and time again, I've seen both him and McTominay turn down countless switches of play, or take too many touches, play the ball behind our wingers or full backs and kill our momentum. I've seen them both win the ball back only to be dispossessed straight after, kill counter attacks with poor passes, miss tackles, miss interceptions and give away stupid fouls time and time again.

Our midfield is nowhere near the quality needed, Fred and McTominay would be just as poor in Liverpools midfield as they are in ours. Fabinho would probably be less effective in our midfield, but it would still be a massive upgrade. Our midfield is so bad compared to top clubs across Europe, it's shameful. Part of that is down to Ole I'm sure, and coaching etc etc. But a huge part is down to the fact that Fred, McTominay, Matic are nowhere near the standard. I don't think any system, coaching or whatever the hell else you're implying makes any of them anywhere near good enough.

I agree with everyone you mentioned except Fred, Idk why you keep mentioning Mctominay and Matic as if Fabinho would suddenly come into Ole's system partner them and we'd suddenly be void of all problems. If Fred and Fabinho switch places Liverpool are still competing for the league and we're still fighting for top 4. I don't think anyone can argue that, so yes systems and midfield partners do come into play.

I don't think Fred is the problem in our midfield, partner him with a decent number 6 and a Bruno that isn't playing second striker suddenly our midfield looks a loooot better. Bruno also has to take some blame for the midfield as he hasn't helped at all and whoever play in the 2 deeper positions have been overran consistently because of it. Effectively Fred has had one midfield partner the majority of the season and it's been Matic or Mctominay. While Fabinho has had Thiago and Henderson, it's not hard to understand why Fabinho looks better for Liverpool than Fred does for us.

 

[owlo]

I agree with everyone you mentioned except Fred, Idk why you keep mentioning Mctominay and Matic as if Fabinho would suddenly come into Ole's system partner them and we'd suddenly be void of all problems. If Fred and Fabinho switch places Liverpool are still competing for the league and we're still fighting for top 4. I don't think anyone can argue that, so yes systems and midfield partners do come into play.

I don't think Fred is the problem in our midfield, partner him with a decent number 6 and a Bruno that isn't playing second striker suddenly our midfield looks a loooot better. Bruno also has to take some blame for the midfield as he hasn't helped at all and whoever play in the 2 deeper positions have been overran consistently because of it. Effectively Fred has had one midfield partner the majority of the season and it's been Matic or Mctominay. While Fabinho has had Thiago and Henderson, it's not hard to understand why Fabinho looks better for Liverpool than Fred does for us.

Not really. If he's told to play as a midfielder and doesn't, he'd just be benched. It's all on management. If Lindelof decided he was a midfielder, how long do you think he'd last? I suspect it'd be measured in minutes not games.

It was either
a) Not communicated properly where the management expected him to play
b) Management were too weak to correct it when he did it wrong.

Don't get me wrong, I have no problems benching Bruno or whatever if he's a primadonna, but you can't blame him for his position in so many games. It had implicit approval of management.

 

[the_cliff]

Not really. If he's told to play as a midfielder and doesn't, he'd just be benched. It's all on management. If Lindelof decided he was a midfielder, how long do you think he'd last? I suspect it'd be measured in minutes not games.

It was either
a) Not communicated properly where the management expected him to play
b) Management were too weak to correct it when he did it wrong.

Don't get me wrong, I have no problems benching Bruno or whatever if he's a primadonna, but you can't blame him for his position in so many games. It had implicit approval of management.

That's beside the point. Maybe it was instructions from Ole, my point is of course you're going to get overrun in midfield when you have a 4-2-4 and you're playing against the majority of teams in the Pl that have a 3 man midfield. It's ridiculous to think otherwise.

And I do think you're right come to think of it, because Bruno played a lot deeper when he came on yesterday and oh look our midfield didn't look as shit as it had the whole season. Surprise surprise.

So I take that back, it was Ole's fault not Bruno's.

Edit:
This is not some new 'agenda' I have btw I've been mentioning this the whole season and I've been berating Bruno for it as I thought our manager wouldn't be dumb enough not to realise the quite simple problem our midfield had been having. However, after the game yesterday I realised that it probably was instructions and as long as bruno plays deeper and supports the midfield 2 we'll do a lot better.

However, I do think we need a world class number 6, I just don't think Fred is the major issue here it's more Mctominay/Matic.

 

[VanDeBank]

Not really. If he's told to play as a midfielder and doesn't, he'd just be benched. It's all on management. If Lindelof decided he was a midfielder, how long do you think he'd last? I suspect it'd be measured in minutes not games.

It was either
a) Not communicated properly where the management expected him to play
b) Management were too weak to correct it when he did it wrong.

Don't get me wrong, I have no problems benching Bruno or whatever if he's a primadonna, but you can't blame him for his position in so many games. It had implicit approval of management.

More people should understand this. If Rashford never tracks back and is picked for the next game (let alone not subbed off), management is cool with it.

 

[eire-red]

I agree with everyone you mentioned except Fred, Idk why you keep mentioning Mctominay and Matic as if Fabinho would suddenly come into Ole's system partner them and we'd suddenly be void of all problems. If Fred and Fabinho switch places Liverpool are still competing for the league and we're still fighting for top 4. I don't think anyone can argue that, so yes systems and midfield partners do come into play.

I don't think Fred is the problem in our midfield, partner him with a decent number 6 and a Bruno that isn't playing second striker suddenly our midfield looks a loooot better. Bruno also has to take some blame for the midfield as he hasn't helped at all and whoever play in the 2 deeper positions have been overran consistently because of it. Effectively Fred has had one midfield partner the majority of the season and it's been Matic or Mctominay. While Fabinho has had Thiago and Henderson, it's not hard to understand why Fabinho looks better for Liverpool than Fred does for us.

I agree with the Bruno part. I understand why Ole had him playing so high given his output last season, but surely at some point he had to drop him a little deeper and contribute to our build up? The disconnect between defence and attack was glaringly obvious.

Look, Fred isn't the main culprit by any means. He gets a lot of stick (rightly so in my opinion), but every now and then he puts in a decent performance and he's praised because he's the lesser evil out of our midfield options. McTominay absolutely has to go, but I agree with you, let's say we had an actual midfield trio of Fabinho, Fred and Bruno. I actually think that's a decent midfield.

But I would swap Fred in a heartbeat for a large amount of midfielders out there, I think he's way off the pace for a team that wants to compete. To me, it's a given that McTominay will be out the door if we get a new manager (or at least he should be). My point is that Fred and Matic and Pogba and whoever else has been serving up absolute crap over the past year should be given the boot also.

 

[VanDeBank]

I agree with the Bruno part. I understand why Ole had him playing so high given his output last season, but surely at some point he had to drop him a little deeper and contribute to our build up? The disconnect between defence and attack was glaringly obvious.

Look, Fred isn't the main culprit by any means. He gets a lot of stick (rightly so in my opinion), but every now and then he puts in a decent performance and he's praised because he's the lesser evil out of our midfield options. McTominay absolutely has to go, but I agree with you, let's say we had an actual midfield trio of Fabinho, Fred and Bruno. I actually think that's a decent midfield.

But I would swap Fred in a heartbeat for a large amount of midfielders out there, I think he's way off the pace for a team that wants to compete. To me, it's a given that McTominay will be out the door if we get a new manager (or at least he should be). My point is that Fred and Matic and Pogba and whoever else has been serving up absolute crap over the past year should be given the boot also.

Is "whoever else" half the squad? Maybe they're not all shite and the coaching plays a huge role?

You're setting yourself up to buy into another rebuild narrative, which will enable an underperforming manager.

Look at Chelsea and how little we rated their players. Rudiger is a great example.

 

[Majima]

Isn't that because Fred played every game while Kante missed many?

Not really. Kante's started 6 matches, Fred 9. Toggled for Per 90 stats, Fred's still better.

 

[stevoc]

Not really. Kante's started 6 matches, Fred 9. Toggled for Per 90 stats, Fred's still better.

But is he really the better ball toucher?

 

[Majima]

What constitutes a ball touch?

The stat is carries, defined as: ''Number of times the player controlled the ball with their feet.'' So it's to do with the amount that the player receives the ball, then carries it. This stat is where Kante shines compared to Fred. He dribbles the ball past more people & further than Fred.

The previous stat is touches, defined as: ''Number of times a player touched the ball. Note: Receiving a pass, then dribbling, then sending a pass counts as one touch.'' To do with the amount of touches the player has overall in each phase. The stats show Fred is more involved in all phases of our build up.

 

[stevoc]

The stat is carries, defined as: ''Number of times the player controlled the ball with their feet.'' So it's to do with the amount that the player receives the ball, then carries it. This stat is where Kante shines compared to Fred. He dribbles the ball past more people & further than Fred.

The previous stat is touches, defined as: ''Number of times a player touched the ball. Note: Receiving a pass, then dribbling, then sending a pass counts as one touch.'' To do with the amount of touches the player has overall in each phase. The stats show Fred is more involved in all phases of our build up.

Fair enough cheers, was just wondering.

 

[Ali Dia]

The stat is carries, defined as: ''Number of times the player controlled the ball with their feet.'' So it's to do with the amount that the player receives the ball, then carries it. This stat is where Kante shines compared to Fred. He dribbles the ball past more people & further than Fred.

The previous stat is touches, defined as: ''Number of times a player touched the ball. Note: Receiving a pass, then dribbling, then sending a pass counts as one touch.'' To do with the amount of touches the player has overall in each phase. The stats show Fred is more involved in all phases of our build up.

Because he’s trying to do everything because he’s often alone in there

 

[MadDogg]

I've seen Brazil play, the current Brazil side are fairly crap to watch and Fred being a regular for them is irrelevant to the PL, I guess Heskey should have been signed by United as there was a time he was in every England team. As far as an attacking #8 goes, one of your midfielders has to be a good passer, if you pair Fred with a DM then that's two cloggers together, Liverpool have 2 good deep passers in Fabinho and Henderson, and Wijnaldum was a dynamic, attacking #8, Fred is none of these things, I feel like history is being rewritten post after post, like bizzaro world has taken over the Caf, the place is routinely divided but one thing most agreed on was that midfield was in desperate need of an upgrade, suddenly it's just McTominay and Fred is actually brilliant because he had a decent half hour against Villareal, despite being trash all season.

A DM doesn't have to be a 'clogger'.

Ideally we should be using Fred in the same way that Chelsea use Kante. Kante is one of the best in the history of the game at what he does, yet even his performance levels have been somewhat inconsistent for Chelsea depending on who his midfield partner has been and the role he has been expected to play. His great periods of form have come next to Matic (when he was young and good) and Jorginho - two players with positional discipline to hold the defensive shape while also being good passers (especially Jorginho). This allowed Kante to focus on what he's great at. When Chelsea have given him different roles in a different midfield set-up he's looked half the player. It's simply common sense when you look at Kante's strengths and weaknesses that that is the type of partner he should have to make the most balanced midfield.

In theory at least, Fred needs the exact same type of partner. Something that he's never come close to having here. Obviously he's not as good as Kante (who is faster, better touch, better dribbler and more likely to win the challenges he goes in for), but he's closer to him than the vast majority of midfielders out there. Instead, for most of his time here we've basically been asking him to play the midfield playmaking role himself when we have the ball, and then abusing him when he unsurprisingly isn't good enough. And when out of possession...well, being one of the best harriers and destroyers around is all well and good, except if your midfield partner doesn't press, your wingers don't press, your defence sits deep and there's space being left everywhere, it's obviously not going to work as well as what it should in a proper system and it's going to result in you getting caught out sometimes.

At the end of the day, Fred is the only midfielder we currently have who might be able to be part of a good two man midfield partnership. Emphasis on the 'might'. Matic definitely can't anymore, doesn't matter who that partner is. McTominay definitely can't, he is basically average or worse in every important aspect for a midfielder so it's impossible to form a balanced partnership without the other midfielder doing EVERYTHING (which is basically what Fred currently tries to do). Pogba (despite what people have wanted) has never been able to do it consistently at any level in any team, even if he was sticking around. VDB...maybe he'll end up surprising us and he has been a bit better lately, but he has a lot to prove. That leaves Fred as the only one who might be able to do it. There is a fair chance that he still won't be good enough and we'd still have to improve on him further, but he at least has the strengths to allow us to say "ok if he's partnered with somebody that compliments him we could have a fairly balanced midfield".

 

[Majima]

Fair enough cheers, was just wondering.

No worries. Looking back they do look confusing.