[stevoc]

You might be right. He's not a top midfielder and can be upgraded (but who can't).

Some players like Fred would be much easier to upgrade on than others.

That might be right he would have signed one but my point is like Lindelof, he has contributed to the wins. If you believe what people write, he's the reason we lose. People forget his best games have been against the best teams in PL and CL. You don't do that just running around. You don't play for Brazil if you can't pass the football.

True but that suits his game as he has less of the ball and he's very good at bussing about and breaking up play. Fred's weaknesses become apparent when United are the more dominant team and he sees more of the ball. And United being the more dominant has been the base more and more over the last 18 months. Which might explain why Fred is starting to struggle.

The comments are ridiculous and way overboard for a lad that gives 100% even if he's not elite.

I'd agree some are over the top but that's down to frustration. And he's not the only one that gives 100% let's be fair, in fact I'd say in this group of players there aren't many who don't try their hardest every game.

Utd have won trophies with a number of 'Freds' and we have had better players that have feck off with the weight of the criticism or not turned up at all.

We have but usually those 'Freds' were squad players and not first choice and that's our problem. Fred would be a great squad option to have but he's not he's first choice. And considering the talent we now have in defence and attack central midfield sticks out like a sore thumb in terms of quality.

 

[Edgio]

Some players like Fred would be much easier to upgrade on than others.



True but that suits his game as he has less of the ball and he's very good at bussing about and breaking up play. Fred's weaknesses become apparent when United are the more dominant team and he sees more of the ball. And United being the more dominant has been the base more and more over the last 18 months. Which might explain why Fred is starting to struggle.



I'd agree some are over the top but that's down to frustration. And he's not the only one that gives 100% let's be fair, in fact I'd say in this group of players there aren't many who don't try their hardest every game.



We have but usually those 'Freds' were squad players and not first choice and that's our problem. Fred would be a great squad option to have but he's not he's first choice. And considering the talent we now have in defence and attack central midfield sticks out like a sore thumb in terms of quality.

He's better than he's shown for us though. His games against Citeh weren't all about breaking up play, but retaining the ball for Shakhtar in difficult situations and finding a way out.

There's a stupid effect on this video and a few examples of his wayward passing, but clearly he is capable of doing better. Not entirely sure he is a defensive midfielder either.

 

[stevoc]

He's better than he's shown for us though. His games against Citeh weren't all about breaking up play, but retaining the ball for Shakhtar in difficult situations and finding a way out.

There's a stupid effect on this video and a few examples of his wayward passing, but clearly he is capable of doing better. Not entirely sure he is a defensive midfielder either.

He's definitely capable of better than his form over the last year and he's definitely not a DM.

His best position I think is left of a 3 but I doubt we'll ever play him there.

 

[Adamsk7]

For all the stick Matic gets (wrongly in my opinion), the difference between Fred and him when he came on was night and day. Matic is streets ahead in absolutely everything except speed.
If we’re playing two holders then it should be Matic and McTominay on ability. I think they actually compliment each other better than any other pair.
I like Fred but he’s been pretty bad so far this season and definitely needs some time out of the team.

 

[AR87]

Yeah but that's where these stats when viewed in isolation can be misleading. If a player wins the ball but immediately loses it again in the scramble or miss controls and loses it receiving a pass etc. neither count towards his passing stats. So you can lose the ball (sometimes a lot) but still have high passing accuracy during a game.

Sure but even if you look at the times he was dispossessed it was like 2. Again, I don't think he was some standout player today, but he didn't drop a shocker.

He even won possession and played the ball out to Bruno for his cross to Ronaldo for the opener. It wasn't a great play that deserves massive credit but it's just an example of him doing something positive which did contribute to us positively. This just wasn't a performance worth being up in arms about or high praise.

He was fine, but we need better in that position which has been known. Just feels like people want to constantly harp on that when it's just something that for the time being we need to accept and hope Ole can find solutions to overcome our CM deficiencies.

 

[stevoc]

Sure but even if you look at the times he was dispossessed it was like 2. Again, I don't think he was some standout player today, but he didn't drop a shocker.

He even won possession and played the ball out to Bruno for his cross to Ronaldo for the opener. It wasn't a great play that deserves massive credit but it's just an example of him doing something positive which did contribute to us positively. This just wasn't a performance worth being up in arms about or high praise.

He was fine, but we need better in that position which has been known. Just feels like people want to constantly harp on that when it's just something that for the time being we need to accept and hope Ole can find solutions to overcome our CM deficiencies.

Sorry I should have specified my point was about stats in general and not just with regards to Fred's performance yesterday. I've no idea how many times he lost the ball yesterday though I suspect it was more than twice.

As I said I don't think Fred was as bad as some seem to think, he wasn't great but I've definitely seen him have worse games for us.

 

[11101]

For all the stick Matic gets (wrongly in my opinion), the difference between Fred and him when he came on was night and day. Matic is streets ahead in absolutely everything except speed.
If we’re playing two holders then it should be Matic and McTominay on ability. I think they actually compliment each other better than any other pair.
I like Fred but he’s been pretty bad so far this season and definitely needs some time out of the team.

Matic is streets ahead of pretty much any midfielder in the league, if he had his speed back. But he doesn't, and without it he's a liability.

Fred and McTominay are our best pairing, and Matic is better suited to taking McTominay's role anyway. Matic and McTominay together would be so incredibly static and shy of the ball.

 

[Skills]

He's had a poor start to the season, but he's a good player. I like the way he plays, he's always trying to move the ball on and progress it. It's why I have so much patience for him

 

[Litch]

Some players like Fred would be much easier to upgrade on than others.



True but that suits his game as he has less of the ball and he's very good at bussing about and breaking up play. Fred's weaknesses become apparent when United are the more dominant team and he sees more of the ball. And United being the more dominant has been the base more and more over the last 18 months. Which might explain why Fred is starting to struggle.



I'd agree some are over the top but that's down to frustration. And he's not the only one that gives 100% let's be fair, in fact I'd say in this group of players there aren't many who don't try their hardest every game.



We have but usually those 'Freds' were squad players and not first choice and that's our problem. Fred would be a great squad option to have but he's not he's first choice. And considering the talent we now have in defence and attack central midfield sticks out like a sore thumb in terms of quality.

Top CDMs aren't that available and it's just pretty much the same list for ridiculous money. Clearly they would improve us but Im not entirely sure Utd have the appetite to get their pants pulled down again.

I agree about this role doesn't suit him but don't understand why people are using it to criticise him. That would be like playing Lindelof as a CDM and then criticising him for being poor at it. He's said he's trying to adapt to the role which can't be easy at 28 and as you say, are not his attributes.

Yep we all get frustrated, it's part of being a fan. Not suggesting others don't give 100%, that wasn't the point. He doesn't pick himself and he's playing out of position yet he does a lot of the dirty stuff which fans don't see. Anyone's who has been around dressing rooms, these type of players are liked by their peers. If he wasn't, I don't think he plays. For me, some players contribute and sometimes that transcends their ability. Seen it in every team sport.

Dont get this first choice thing. In 50 years of watching Utd, I've never seen a team full of first choice players. These discussions are not new just each season, people seem to focus on a player and believe that the problems are all theirs. Wasn't that long ago it was Pogs and the so called 'no first touch' Rom......

 

[Rossa]

Looked uncharacteristically slow against WH. Pulled out of two 50-50 duels and subsequently lost the ball. I like him, but he needs to step it up.

 

[Litch]

Sure but even if you look at the times he was dispossessed it was like 2. Again, I don't think he was some standout player today, but he didn't drop a shocker.

He even won possession and played the ball out to Bruno for his cross to Ronaldo for the opener. It wasn't a great play that deserves massive credit but it's just an example of him doing something positive which did contribute to us positively. This just wasn't a performance worth being up in arms about or high praise.

He was fine, but we need better in that position which has been known. Just feels like people want to constantly harp on that when it's just something that for the time being we need to accept and hope Ole can find solutions to overcome our CM deficiencies.

I agree and I think if you asked Fred that, he'd say he's not a CDM. In fact that's why he's trying to adapt his game. This then is used against him like he shouldn't have to adapt to it, he should just know it. Also if he don't know it, he shouldn't make mistakes in doing so. Fred is not the answer, no doubt a good squad player and starts ironically the big games to break up play.
Ole knows this I'm sure, just CDMs aren't available or for what he wants to pay. Maybe he wants Garner to come in next season?

 

[stevoc]

Dont get this first choice thing. In 50 years of watching Utd, I've never seen a team full of first choice players. These discussions are not new just each season, people seem to focus on a player and believe that the problems are all theirs. Wasn't that long ago it was Pogs and the so called 'no first touch' Rom......

I've only been watching 30 years and I certainly have seen a team full of first choice players. And by that I mean that when fit and there's a big game you know pretty much what the line-up is going to be.

Take the 1999 team for example, when fit it was Schmeichel, Neville, Johnsen, Stam, Irwin, Beckham, Keane, Scholes, Giggs, Yorke, Cole. That squad had reliable hard working squad players like Phil Neville, Nicky Butt, Blomqvist those players were important but they weren't first choice. They came in and did a job when better players weren't playing. Fred could fill that role brilliantly but he isn't because right now he's first choice which is the problem.

 

[poleglass red]

as bad as it gets, too easily pushed of the ball, bad positioning, terrible passing. Only thing you can say good, is he runs around a lot, at this level that's not good enough.

 

[Orton]

One thing that absolutely bugs me beyond belief is when he’s trying to block or intercept the ball, it literally goes right through him. It’s like one of those fifa glitches. Happens almost every game.

 

[laughtersassassin]

Awful season so far bar the ten man game

 

[Litch]

I've only been watching 30 years and I certainly have seen a team full of first choice players. And by that I mean that when fit and there's a big game you know pretty much what the line-up is going to be.

Take the 1999 team for example, when fit it was Schmeichel, Neville, Johnsen, Stam, Irwin, Beckham, Keane, Scholes, Giggs, Yorke, Cole. That squad had reliable hard working squad players like Phil Neville, Nicky Butt, Blomqvist those players were important but they weren't first choice. They came in and did a job when better players weren't playing. Fred could fill that role brilliantly but he isn't because right now he's first choice which is the problem.

Johnsen divided fans opinion and arguably he was more of a converted midfielder than Stam was. Arguably Berg was more of a first team choice, but neither could stay fit. Fred is first choice because Ole has made the choice, he could play Pogs in midfield with either Scott, Matic or VDB, but he doesn't.

 

[Raven]

I actually thought he was decent yesterday, nothing earth shattering but not as bad as some seem to think. Thought McTominay was comfortably worse but that's to be expected with his recent injury. Has anyone seen any individual stats for yesterday by any chance?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I actually thought he was decent yesterday, nothing earth shattering but not as bad as some seem to think. Thought McTominay was comfortably worse but that's to be expected with his recent injury. Has anyone seen any individual stats for yesterday by any chance?

I’m with you on that. Some dodgy moments which might downgrade him from “decent” to “not great” but nowhere near as bad as you’d think from this thread and I agree that McT had a worse game. I would also like to see some stats.

 

[stevoc]

Johnsen divided fans opinion and arguably he was more of a converted midfielder than Stam was. Arguably Berg was more of a first team choice, but neither could stay fit.

Johnsen was a cracking defender and played when fit, but we're getting off topic so I'll leave that discussion for another time.

Fred is first choice because Ole has made the choice, he could play Pogs in midfield with either Scott, Matic or VDB, but he doesn't.

For various reasons Fred right now is first choice because all our other options are either too old Matic or can't play in a midfield 2 Pogba. DVB who knows.

 

[LawCharltonBest]

Looked uncharacteristically slow against WH. Pulled out of two 50-50 duels and subsequently lost the ball. I like him, but he needs to step it up.

I’m sure that I saw him do this more than twice. Very frustrating. Fred at the moment is very easy to play against.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Found some stats. McT’s in brackets.

89 touches (68)
31 pressures (10)
8 tackles (1)
1 interception (1)
69 passes (53)
89.3% Completed (91)

@Raven

 

[Raven]

Found some stats. McT’s in brackets.

89 touches (68)
31 pressures (10)
8 tackles (1)
1 interception (1)
69 passes (53)
89.3% Completed (91)

@Raven

Those stats aren't bad by any means and they also seem to back up what we were saying about his performance vs McTominays. I noticed some decent line breaking passes from him yesterday as well which people don't seem to be recognising at all. 8 tackles is really fecking high though, is that attempted or won do you know?

Edit: Just took a look at your link, I realise that they don't have a tackles attempted stat on there so it must have been 8 successful. I did also notice that Fred made 2 progressive carries vs McTominay's 13 so perhaps that's something that has caught the eye a bit as well.

 

[tjb]

I really don't think he's nearly as good as some on here think. It's not just his poor positioning that makes him a problem at DM. His key issues for me are that he can't win duels. He can't tackle and lacks the strength to body someone off the ball. His touch also fails him a lot of interception attempts. So essentially, defensively, he provides simply harrying and that's not enough.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Those stats aren't bad by any means and they also seem to back up what we were saying about his performance vs McTominays. I noticed some decent line breaking passes from him yesterday as well which people don't seem to be recognising at all. 8 tackles is really fecking high though, is that attempted or won do you know?

Edit: Just took a look at your link, I realise that they don't have a tackles attempted stat on there so it must have been 8 successful. I did also notice that Fred made 2 progressive carries vs McTominay's 13 so perhaps that's something that has caught the eye a bit as well.

Also worth noting that Fred’s stats from the game are a lot better than Declan Rice’s.

 

[Raven]

I really don't think he's nearly as good as some on here think. It's not just his poor positioning that makes him a problem at DM. His key issues for me are that he can't win duels. He can't tackle and lacks the strength to body someone off the ball. His touch also fails him a lot of interception attempts. So essentially, defensively, he provides simply harrying and that's not enough.

He made 8 tackles against West Ham.

 

[Raven]

Also worth noting that Fred’s stats from the game are a lot better than Declan Rice’s.

I think Rice is highly overrated anyway but he was playing for the inferior team in fairness. Having said that, anyone who thinks Rice, is going to "unlock" Pogba in a midfield 2 is living in la la land.

 

[Litch]

Johnsen was a cracking defender and played when fit, but we're getting off topic so I'll leave that discussion for another time.



For various reasons Fred right now is first choice because all our other options are either too old Matic or can't play in a midfield 2 Pogba. DVB who knows.

I like Ronny but he equally divided opinions but like you said, that's for another day.

Maybe it's me but Ole knew Matic's DOB. It's no revelation about the struggles of trying to get the best out of Pogs in midfield, so if that is the case, why are we entering into the 3rd season with Fred. If he's that bad, then he's easy to replace and you don't need a Rice to do so. Like said, this is Ole's dream job, one he's not going to jeopardise by playing with 10 men each week. Not one he's going to risk by making Fred first choice when he could play Pogs and Scott. Matic could start games and Scott could come on or visa versa?

My point is the narrative that he's Hobson's choice is the fans logic, I actually don't think it's Oles. Might be a strange logic but every big game in general, that's Oles go to. Generally, we tend to win them too.

 

[Litch]

Also worth noting that Fred’s stats from the game are a lot better than Declan Rice’s.

Stats don't matter when we are making an argument against Fred. It's funny cause I had to watch the game back again after some of the comments on here. I kind of accepted a long time ago that irrespective of how he plays, he'll always be seen negatively by some fans but the comments after yesterday's game were ridiculous

 

[AR87]

I actually thought he was decent yesterday, nothing earth shattering but not as bad as some seem to think. Thought McTominay was comfortably worse but that's to be expected with his recent injury. Has anyone seen any individual stats for yesterday by any chance?

I rewatched the match today because I wanted to see if he was as disastrous as many made out to be the case and perhaps I just missed it. Came away thinking he was, as I initially thought, fine, and actually slightly better than McTominay overall, although McTominay did play some really impressive line breaking passes. Also in possession Fred was definitely meant to stay deeper than McTominay who was given more license to get forward throughout the match.

Also noticeably, think the midweek fixture got to Fred later in the match. Don't think he was great, but it just seems like as soon as he misplaces or miacontrols a pass then he's currently going to get criticized.

Anyways, it'll be interesting to see how Ole manages the CM minutes as the season goes along. Matic does have a certain class on the ball we don't get from Fred and McT, but he just can't play a lot of minutes.

 

[stevoc]

I like Ronny but he equally divided opinions but like you said, that's for another day.

Maybe it's me but Ole knew Matic's DOB. It's no revelation about the struggles of trying to get the best out of Pogs in midfield, so if that is the case, why are we entering into the 3rd season with Fred. If he's that bad, then he's easy to replace and you don't need a Rice to do so. Like said, this is Ole's dream job, one he's not going to jeopardise by playing with 10 men each week. Not one he's going to risk by making Fred first choice when he could play Pogs and Scott. Matic could start games and Scott could come on or visa versa?

My point is the narrative that he's Hobson's choice is the fans logic, I actually don't think it's Oles. Might be a strange logic but every big game in general, that's Oles go to. Generally, we tend to win them too.

Because Ole has had to continue with him. Other areas were deemed a higher priority for recruiting and the budget only stretches so far every summer, Solkjaer hasn't signed any central midfielders in his tenure so far bar DVB who hasn't worked as yet.

I've never argued Fred isn't a decent player or that he isn't the best option we currently have along with McTominay. But do you really think if money hadn't have been an issue in the summer that Solskjaer wouldn't have signed another central midfielder or two?

 

[Abraxas]

The criticism Fred gets is unbelievable. It just seems like his face has never quite fitted for some. Even when his form was exceptional he was always seen as part of the problem even though he was our key man and without him we would have struggled massively. He got some lukewarm praise for a while but as soon as he tails off a little he gets piled on. It's as if he could never recover from a difficult start at United for some.

I don't know why it can't just be called for what it is, it's a poor start to the season and poor form but just calling him shit and constantly dismissing him is strange. He's in bad form but the manager values him and we're going to need him if we're to be successful this year. Even if we get a shiney new signing Fred will still have a large part to play.

 

[championo]

The criticism Fred gets is unbelievable. It just seems like his face has never quite fitted for some. Even when his form was exceptional he was always seen as part of the problem even though he was our key man and without him we would have struggled massively. He got some lukewarm praise for a while but as soon as he tails off a little he gets piled on. It's as if he could never recover from a difficult start at United for some.

I don't know why it can't just be called for what it is, it's a poor start to the season and poor form but just calling him shit and constantly dismissing him is strange. He's in bad form but the manager values him and we're going to need him if we're to be successful this year. Even if we get a shiney new signing Fred will still have a large part to play.

You are so right. He is the ultimate midfielder. Just watch him at this absolute best. Best part of the video is the slick exchange with Neymar at the end. Just brilliant.

 

[nainaisson]

He made 8 tackles against West Ham.

And if I remember correctly, one of his tackles led indirectly to our first goal.

 

[AR87]

And if I remember correctly, one of his tackles led indirectly to our first goal.

I'd love to see which one, because I don't remember that at all.

 

[EtH]

And if I remember correctly, one of his tackles led indirectly to our first goal.

I'd love to see which one, because I don't remember that at all.

It wasn’t a tackle. Was a ball bouncing back out from a corner he pushed out wide to Bruno who crossed into Ronaldo.

One of his better passes of the day. Which isn’t saying much.

 

[berbatrick]

Found some stats. McT’s in brackets.

89 touches (68)
31 pressures (10)
8 tackles (1)
1 interception (1)
69 passes (53)
89.3% Completed (91)

@Raven

8 tackles seems to be an insane amount and not what I remember from the game. This site has Fred on 4, Pogba on 3, and McT on 1, which matches my memory of the game better than 8/2/1 from fbref.
Wonder how they count this stuff.

 

[city-puma]

Stats don't matter when we are making an argument against Fred. It's funny cause I had to watch the game back again after some of the comments on here. I kind of accepted a long time ago that irrespective of how he plays, he'll always be seen negatively by some fans but the comments after yesterday's game were ridiculous

I have also long accepted that many always watch the different game than I do. You can’t argue with them in any meaningful and rational way. It kinda draws me to the conclusion that some are watching the game with the mindset of FIFA game (probably played on Amateur mode).

 

[EtH]

8 tackles seems to be an insane amount and not what I remember from the game. This site has Fred on 4, Pogba on 3, and McT on 1, which matches my memory of the game better than 8/2/1 from fbref.
Wonder how they count this stuff.

Yeah those stats are well off. Having watched the match twice I can remember one tackle in the first half in the opposition third which he lost immediately out for a West Ham throw and one in the second half on the counter where the whole West Ham bench shouted for a foul. So four seems generous, never mind eight.

Unless you consider him going to ground nowhere near the ball as he did before the goal a tackle or attempted tackle or whatever. Which is where he was all day defensively… nowhere near the ball. He was outmuscled, outrun and generally second best all day even in situations he looked favorite to win. It was really poor.

And his passing was as bad or worse. Always looking to turn the ball back even when the chance was there to turn and push the ball forward. So that high passing percentage means little to nowt considering he screwed up nearly every time he was brave enough to attempt a progressive pass.

There was nothing redeeming in that performance. So this is where I have to disagree with @Pogue Mahone and @Raven …

While McTominay was poor off the ball, he was very involved in most of our good attacking play either directly or indirectly. There was the great through ball to Ronaldo of course. But also the pull back to Ronaldo after driving the ball to the byline which was inches off. And some great line breaking passes such as the one to Greenwood who then played a nice throughball to Ronaldo.

His passing was positive and he drove us forward as much or more than anyone yesterday in possession. Hopefully we can chalk his poor play off the ball up to coming back straight away from injury. But either way he was streets ahead of Fred who was poor in every way yesterday.

 

[AR87]

Unless you consider him going to ground nowhere near the ball as he did before the goal a tackle or attempted tackle or whatever. Which is where he was all day defensively… nowhere near the ball. He was outmuscled, outrun and generally second best all day even in situations he looked favorite to win. It was really poor.

This is honestly just wrong. I also re-watched the match and while I agree he definitely was beat on a some 50/50 challenges the degree to which you're describing it as is greatly exaggerated.

And his passing was as bad or worse. Always looking to turn the ball back even when the chance was there to turn and push the ball forward. So that high passing percentage means little to nowt considering he screwed up nearly every time he was brave enough to attempt a progressive pass.

Another exaggeration not actually based on the actual game nor borne out statistically.

He didn't play great, but he wasn't awful. And I don't agree McTominay was good. Yes, be played some very nice line breaking passes, but was also consistently terrible marking runs on the counter and was particularly culpable in giving up space on the shot that led to the equalizer. He was short on fitness so it's understandable.

 

[AR87]

It wasn’t a tackle. Was a ball bouncing back out from a corner he pushed out wide to Bruno who crossed into Ronaldo.

Sorry misread what you said. I did notice that and I mentioned it earlier. Doesn't mean he played a good match, but when people go over the top to pretend he played awfully it's something worth mentioning.