[LovelyLittlePanda]

This is roughly what I’d like to see next season as well, except swap Haaland for Sancho as I think that’s the more realistic transfer. Plus if we somehow get Haaland we’d be fools not to play him as the CF in every game.

If we hypothetically take Sancho as our big summer signing the consensus seems to be we can afford an additional player who constitutes a ‘compromise’. Which I take to essentially mean option 3/4 rather than option 1.

If we apply that to CDM, Rice and Ndidi seem to fall into the no.1 slot and are outside our budget. So I’d like to see us target Bissouma who wouldn’t break the bank and Brighton seem resigned to losing anyways.

Giving us a front 6 against against weaker teams of:

Bissouma Pogba
Sancho Bruno Rashford
Greenwood​

Which could then switch to this front 6 in tougher games;

Bissouma Fred
Sancho Bruno Pogba
Rashford
​

You're right about always playing Haaland CF. I was probably thinking of the recent derby where we got pinned down in our own half and the exact positions of our forwards wasn't all too relevant. Can't wait for Ole to have the luxury of deciding between Rashford/Greenwood/Pogba for the flanks

I was thinking of something like:

Big games:

Haaland
Pogba Bruno Rashford
Fred Bazoer​

Vs smaller teams: (similar to how we lined up pre Pogba's injury)

Haaland
Rashford Bruno Greenwood
Fred Pogba
​

With McTominay competing with Fred.

We'll never be able to afford both Haaland and a big name DM. I think Bazoer is the best "punt" out there.

Your suggestion of going for Sancho and a more established DM is the safer route.

I do think that the Pellistri and Amad signings were made with the intent of going after Haaland (or so I keep telling myself)

Ultimately it will depend on if the club is ready to move on some established players (Martial, Lingard, one of the keepers, etc)

If we're only selling Dalot and Pereira, we will be lucky to only get Sancho (but my preference would still be the DM)

To get back on the topic of Fred, I wish he would practice his shooting. Sometimes it's just the correct choice and I think he'd do a better job of convincing his doubters with 2-3 screamers a season to his name as oppossed to a bunch of pre-assists most people won't find or notice.

If his name was Fredandinho y'all would love him. It's simply because he has such a boring, non-exotic name that he isn't rated.

It's not pronounced Fred, but rather Frech (ch as in cheese). I could be wrong, but I sound smart now, so I'll keep believing it

 

[Olecurls99]

Again, where the team finishes is of little relevance to me. I’m sure half the people arguing with me can barely remember Kanté’s performances in his title winning season. Not the way they can tell you every misplaced pass Fred has played in two years. We just remember he ‘played well’. The detail of it probably becomes hazy. Maybe a couple of highlight/standout performances that stick in the memory, but I’m confident none of you recall, or give a shit about how he played at Southampton away four years ago. How many passes were misplaced etc. Kanté has had great seasons. Fred had a great season last season. It was unanimously agreed that he was playing well. But until it’s as part of a conquering team, the ‘yea but they need someone better on the ball’ always lingers.

Literally as soon as Kanté’s two title winning seasons were over, those conversations began about him too, criticism came in, when he was the same player. You say Kanté would have been one of our shining lights had he been here for 5 years, but he wouldn’t. Him playing in a United midfield finishing 5th and 6th, while winning the ball frequently and not doing much else would not be praised to the heavens. We know that because we can see that Fred doesn’t get praised to the heavens, despite winning the ball at a freakish rate. No, for a club that has had Paul Scholes, Keane and the like - Kanté would not be getting praised as much, instead the focus would be on what he doesn’t do ‘well enough’ from the opinion of those who are tasked to talk what is missing from United until they are once again the best team.

Simply put, when we were the best team, we had midfielders who did a lot of things better than Kanté. They didn’t do everything better than him, but they didn’t do everything better than Fred either, yet nobody cares. As soon as Chelsea start performing well below expectation, the same narrative starts about Kanté. The truth, as far as I see it, is that there isn’t much more there than there is with Fred. Makalele wouldn’t be praised to the heavens if he were just sitting in front of a United defence that ends ip 4th. Paul Pogba can put the ball on a sixpence left foot, right foot and create chances - but the conversation is more that he doesn’t defend well enough. Nobody cared about Scholes’ defending. And nobody would care about Pogba’s if United won trophies.

Can I have this distilled into a bottle please? Excellent analysis of Fred and why our fans don't appreciate him

 

[Olecurls99]

I’m not denying Fred can have great games. I think he can be a very good player for us when used correctly with specific intentions.

What I’ve always been criticising is your idea that Fred’s peak was ‘similar’ to Kante’s and that there’s no difference between them as players.

Which is utterly ridiculous and we can use whatever metric you want to reinforce the ridiculousness of it - trophies, individual awards, stats, the ‘eye test’ - because Kante was better in all of them.

Reading through your posts it’s like Kante was a passenger in Leicester winning the league, Chelsea winning the league, and France winning the World Cup while Fred was an unsung hero in a team that finished 3rd and got to the semi-finals of the Europa League.

Kante was an integral part of multiple teams that won the biggest trophies. Fred has been a relatively important part of a team that has come close to winning nothing. The fact that they have similar play styles is the only comparison.

Yep, Kante did play in better teams. Of that there is no doubt

 

[Listar]

Again, where the team finishes is of little relevance to me. I’m sure half the people arguing with me can barely remember Kanté’s performances in his title winning season. Not the way they can tell you every misplaced pass Fred has played in two years. We just remember he ‘played well’. The detail of it probably becomes hazy. Maybe a couple of highlight/standout performances that stick in the memory, but I’m confident none of you recall, or give a shit about how he played at Southampton away four years ago. How many passes were misplaced etc. Kanté has had great seasons. Fred had a great season last season. It was unanimously agreed that he was playing well. But until it’s as part of a conquering team, the ‘yea but they need someone better on the ball’ always lingers.

Literally as soon as Kanté’s two title winning seasons were over, those conversations began about him too, criticism came in, when he was the same player. You say Kanté would have been one of our shining lights had he been here for 5 years, but he wouldn’t. Him playing in a United midfield finishing 5th and 6th, while winning the ball frequently and not doing much else would not be praised to the heavens. We know that because we can see that Fred doesn’t get praised to the heavens, despite winning the ball at a freakish rate. No, for a club that has had Paul Scholes, Keane and the like - Kanté would not be getting praised as much, instead the focus would be on what he doesn’t do ‘well enough’ from the opinion of those who are tasked to talk what is missing from United until they are once again the best team.

Simply put, when we were the best team, we had midfielders who did a lot of things better than Kanté. They didn’t do everything better than him, but they didn’t do everything better than Fred either, yet nobody cares. As soon as Chelsea start performing well below expectation, the same narrative starts about Kanté. The truth, as far as I see it, is that there isn’t much more there than there is with Fred. Makalele wouldn’t be praised to the heavens if he were just sitting in front of a United defence that ends ip 4th. Paul Pogba can put the ball on a sixpence left foot, right foot and create chances - but the conversation is more that he doesn’t defend well enough. Nobody cared about Scholes’ defending. And nobody would care about Pogba’s if United won trophies.

Mate you only need one Kante for your DM and we need Both Fred and Matic as DMs and still leak stupid goals. Comparing Kante to Fred I say you are mad.

 

[Listar]

Yep, Kante did play in better teams. Of that there is no doubt

Was Leicester title winning team much better than ours? I have my doubts. Maybe because they have Kante and we have Fred. Swap in Kante for Fred and we will be able to field both Pogba and Fernandes together then maybe can win some things

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Was Leicester title winning team much better than ours? I have my doubts. Maybe because they have Kante and we have Fred. Swap in Kante for Fred and we will be able to field both Pogba and Fernandes together then maybe can win some things

Absolutely, it's a double edged sword. Players benefit from being in better teams but they have to actually be good enough to play for those teams and elevate them. Pointless for me to say that Mctominay would be amazing for Mourinho's Chelsea because we all know they'd be half the side with him instead of Essien. If Fred was that good so as to warrant a comparison to peak Kante, then he should be one of the most celebrated figures at Old Trafford.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

If his name was Fredandinho y'all would love him. It's simply because he has such a boring, non-exotic name that he isn't rated.

His name could be Dave for all I care. That’s a really shit name.

he’s still not a good player, no matter his name.

 

[AgentSmith]

Yep, Kante did play in better teams. Of that there is no doubt

This argument falls apart when you take into account the Leicester season.

And it's an odd perspective anyways. Kante was good enough to be an important part of teams who won major trophies. That fact doesn’t somehow then detract from his individual quality.

Because Kante didn’t just win the Premier League with Chelsea the season after Leicester; he was recognised by his fellow players as the best player in the league while doing it.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

This argument falls apart when you take into account the Leicester season.

And it's an odd perspective anyways. Kante was good enough to be an important part of teams who won major trophies. That fact doesn’t somehow then detract from his individual quality.

Because Kante didn’t just win the Premier League; he was recognised by his fellow players as the best player in the league while doing it.

What at Leicester? Sure that was Mahrez but iirc he got it the follow year at Chelsea

 

[AgentSmith]

What at Leicester? Sure that was Mahrez but iirc he got it the follow year at Chelsea

I should’ve made it clearer I wasn’t referencing the POTS with the Leicester season. I was only mentioning Leicester because the poster had said Kante played for better teams.

The original point that set it off was someone compared Fred to prime Kante with no difference between the two. I just found that a ludicrous comparison but it’s well-trodden ground at this point, no need to rehash it.

 

[Olecurls99]

This argument falls apart when you take into account the Leicester season.

And it's an odd perspective anyways. Kante was good enough to be an important part of teams who won major trophies. That fact doesn’t somehow then detract from his individual quality.

Because Kante didn’t just win the Premier League with Chelsea the season after Leicester; he was recognised by his fellow players as the best player in the league while doing it.

The comparison with Kante is interesting because it shows how a player is viewed depending on the level of team he's performed in. Kante was an integral part of both Leicester and Chelsea when they won the league. They were great sides and he played a huge role.

I would argue that Fred plays a huge role when we get our act together and perform every now and again. He also does the very same things for us that Kante does. Hassling and harrying and giving it off to the better technical players. Kante has been just offloading to better players.

It is also worth noting that Fred has usually been outKanteing Kante whenever we play Chelsea and is the main force behind most of our big wins over the past 2 years.

All in all I think the point that was made was very useful. A player in a great team has their positive attributes exalted whereas a player at an unsuccessful team, especially an unsuccessful Manchester United will be assessed far more for what they aren't doing.

That being said Fred has hit a bad patch over the last 5 or 6 games and I hope he can regain his form, but this notion that a player with similar passing stats to Rice, Kante et al, can't pass the ball needs to stop. Every player including Kante has a mare every now and again.

 

[AgentSmith]

The comparison with Kante is interesting because it shows how a player is viewed depending on the level of team he's performed in. Kante was an integral part of both Leicester and Chelsea when they won the league. They were great sides and he played a huge role.

I would argue that Fred plays a huge role when we get our act together and perform every now and again. He also does the very same things for us that Kante does. Hassling and harrying and giving it off to the better technical players. Kante has been just offloading to better players.

It is also worth noting that Fred has usually been outKanteing Kante whenever we play Chelsea and is the main force behind most of our big wins over the past 2 years.

All in all I think the point that was made was very useful. A player in a great team has their positive attributes exalted whereas a player at an unsuccessful team, especially an unsuccessful Manchester United will be assessed far more for what they aren't doing.

That being said Fred has hit a bad patch over the last 5 or 6 games and I hope he can regain his form, but this notion that a player with similar passing stats to Rice, Kante et al, can't pass the ball needs to stop. Every player including Kante has a mare every now and again.

The point about Kanté winning the POTS the year he won the league was intended to refute this idea that it’s merely fan’s perception of trophy winning teams that leads them to say he was better than Fred. Is there any better judge of how good a player is than the players they face on the pitch for an entire season?

Anyways it’s a debate that became boring a long time ago. I’d have thought it was a pretty safe bet to say that Kante’s peak was better than Fred’s but apparently not everyone agrees. Most people seem to though.

I think Fred is a great asset to the squad and can be an excellent option for the team when used correctly. He’s at his best in games where he’s able to use his energy and ball-winning skills higher up the pitch, away from our goal. These typically tend to be against ‘better’ teams and that’s a valuable tool for a manager to have at their disposal.

When paired with a technically and defensively sound CDM who plays slightly deeper and helps bring the ball out from the back I think we’ll see a much more consistent version of Fred.

 

[LovelyLittlePanda]

The point about Kanté winning the POTS the year he won the league was intended to refute this idea that it’s merely fan’s perception of trophy winning teams that leads them to say he was better than Fred. Is there any better judge of how good a player is than the players they face on the pitch for an entire season?

Anyways it’s a debate that became boring a long time ago. I’d have thought it was a pretty safe bet to say that Kante’s peak was better than Fred’s but apparently not everyone agrees. Most people seem to though.

I think Fred is a great asset to the squad and can be an excellent option for the team when used correctly. He’s at his best in games where he’s able to use his energy and ball-winning skills higher up the pitch, away from our goal. These typically tend to be against ‘better’ teams and that’s a valuable tool for a manager to have at their disposal.

When paired with a technically and defensively sound CDM who plays slightly deeper and helps bring the ball out from the back I think we’ll see a much more consistent version of Fred.

Spot on.

I'm not even convinced he's only useful vs big teams. He's decent on the ball and certainly more creative than McTominay.

Fred has done fine vs smaller teams when they sit back a la Moyes or Wolves.

It's vs teams that press where he can look suspect. We started having more trouble with our build up after Pogba's injury. Fred + a more technical DM would maybe still be viable vs weaker teams, but the pairing might lack goals from midfield, depending on the new DM.

We just need an extra DM option. Fred could play more to his strengths and wouldn't be forced into having so much creative responsibility. If Kante or Ndidi would be asked what's been demanded of Fred recently, they wouldn't look as good. I think this realisation is why I've changed my tune. Happy to learn.

 

[He'sRaldo]

The main difference between Kante and Fred is that Kante has an area where he excels and absolutely dominates, whereas Fred needs help in all areas.

If Fred was as reliable defensively and physically as Kante, then we'd be a title winning team as we'd be able to field Bruno + Pogba and send the fullbacks high up without having to worry about Fred being easily bypassed. But he isn't and thus we have to play him with another defensive midfielder, which has a knock-on effect on the whole team.

That's the difference between the influence of a decent player and a world class player on a team.

 

[LovelyLittlePanda]

I don’t know how you haven’t been promoted yet.

My own fault, really. I bit a wum on the newbie forums. Should have used better judgement.

The main difference between Kante and Fred is that Kante has an area where he excels and absolutely dominates, whereas Fred needs help in all areas.

If Fred was as reliable defensively and physically as Kante, then we'd be a title winning team as we'd be able to field Bruno + Pogba and send the fullbacks high up without having to worry about Fred being easily bypassed. But he isn't and thus we have to play him with another defensive midfielder, which has a knock-on effect on the whole team.

That's the difference between the influence of a decent player and a world class player on a team.

Can we define better defensively and physically? They're both midgets and Fred's really not that slow.

If you're of the opinion Fred is worse than Kante because he's easier to dribble past, that's fair. There's a few areas in which Fred outshines Kante, like interceptions and progressive passing (probably because he's two-footed), but yeah, I'd still take Kante.

Where would you rank Fred in the league compared to similar players? I'd put him 3rd, someone else might rank him below Rice. Fine.

Can we say Martial or Cavani is the 4th best CF in the league? Is Greenwood the 4th best RW in the league?

We can compare our other players to world class players as well. I think the gap between Cavani/Martial and Mbappe/Haaland, or Greenwood and Salah is bigger than Fred and Kante.

I'd prefer we upgrade on Matic or strengthen that CF/RW area rather than upgrade on Fred, but I agree that having to accomodate Fred is the result of him not being world class.

 

[kettledrumhamster]

The main difference between Kante and Fred is that Kante has an area where he excels and absolutely dominates, whereas Fred needs help in all areas.

If Fred was as reliable defensively and physically as Kante, then we'd be a title winning team as we'd be able to field Bruno + Pogba and send the fullbacks high up without having to worry about Fred being easily bypassed. But he isn't and thus we have to play him with another defensive midfielder, which has a knock-on effect on the whole team.

That's the difference between the influence of a decent player and a world class player on a team.

Why then are Chelsea not a title winning team, considering their forward players and the ability of Kante to do two jobs where Fred can only do one?

 

[He'sRaldo]

Why then are Chelsea not a title winning team, considering their forward players and the ability of Kante to do two jobs where Fred can only do one?

Chelsea did win the title with Kante in that exact role.

 

[Listar]

Chelsea did win the title with Kante in that exact role.

Its weird people argue against facts.

It is like saying why isn't then the sky blue if the reflection of the sea theory is correct.

 

[432JuanMata]

Fred isn’t good enough in the long run at all. He usually looks good with Mctominay beside him in games against bigger sides where we drop off and let them dominate possession, it plays to his strength of getting around and hustling. But when it comes to games where he try play football his technical ability let’s him down. He is useful now but if we are looking to improve and start dominating games we need someone better on the ball.

Sometimes I can’t believe he is Brazilian he is actually terrible and passing, even times when he spreads the play out to the wings and it’s a completed pass it’s usually behind or ahead instead of into feet.

 

[LovelyLittlePanda]

I laughed at that cause I don't know what that means. Are you trying to say because of his shortcomings he is not world class? I don't know of any world class players that after accommodating for them actually become worse. It is like saying Ronaldo is worse after we built a team to be more defensive because of his defensive shortcomings

There's not really an upgrade to (prime) Ronnie, while there are a few to Fred.

You don't see a difference between accommodating a water carrier and accommodating an all-time great?

The former is solved by fielding an extra player, the latter by playing Ronnie in his natural position. They're hassles and bothers on a different scale.

 

[MadDogg]

The main difference between Kante and Fred is that Kante has an area where he excels and absolutely dominates, whereas Fred needs help in all areas.

If Fred was as reliable defensively and physically as Kante, then we'd be a title winning team as we'd be able to field Bruno + Pogba and send the fullbacks high up without having to worry about Fred being easily bypassed. But he isn't and thus we have to play him with another defensive midfielder, which has a knock-on effect on the whole team.

That's the difference between the influence of a decent player and a world class player on a team.

Pogba and Kante play together in the international game, and despite being a much slower tempo and easier opposition they still generally have to play a third hard-working central midfielder on the wing to compensate. Personally I don't think Pogba is suited to playing in a two man midfield (or as one of the deeper two in a three), especially in England. He can do it brilliantly at times, but I don't think he'll ever be consistent enough there. Ndidi is perhaps the only one I know of that might be able to make it work next to him, as he does even more defensive work than Kante and Fred and tends to do it in a more controlled way.

Kante is generally at his best when he's partnered with another central midfielder who is also quite good defensively. Drinkwater for Leicester, then Matic for Chelsea were the partners he had in his two best seasons. Both Kovacic and Jorginho do quite a lot of defensive work now (more than any of Pogba, Matic or McTominay do for us) as well. It allows Kante to push up and hunt the ball and press the opposition as he wants, knowing that if they get past him his partner is still going to be in position to help out.

Kante is better than Fred defensively but it's not by a huge amount. He basically plays the same role that Fred should play for us, but Fred also has to combine that with being our main playmaking central midfielder when he's partnered with McTominay or Matic. I actually think he does that better than Kante would be able to, but he obviously shouldn't have that role as he's not simply not good enough at it. He should be like Kante where he is the weakest member of the midfield on the ball but his unlimited energy and ball-winning ability brings an important advantage of their own.

 

[Tomuś]

Weird how his thread hasn't been bumped. Was one of only 2 or 3 player that were good for the whole game, finally felt like an 'old' Fred's performance. Good.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Weird how his thread hasn't been bumped. Was one of only 2 or 3 player that were good for the whole game, finally felt like an 'old' Fred's performance. Good.

Haters gonna hate.

Very good performance. Agree he was one of only 2 or 3 that performed in both halfs.

 

[Floyd]

I’m not his biggest fan but he was good today.

 

[11101]

Was back to being good again today, though he wasnt tested much through the middle.

 

[Rossa]

Thought he was overall our best player today alongside Maguire.

 

[simplyared]

A massive improvement today from his recent performances. He'll be baggin a few soon. Yes I can actually see a goal comin soon.

 

[drdoityourself]

It was quite a brilliant second half from him. The commentator in my broadcast didn't pay him a single compliment though. He was there to win possession at an impressive rate and Brighton couldn't get out of their own half after the break, even though they dealt well with our initial press. MOTM for me.

 

[youngrell]

Best game for a little while. Maybe tries less expansive work when he has Pogba next to him?

 

[MadDogg]

He had a poor 5 minute period right at the end, but otherwise he was one of our better players. It was another match where it was incredible just how many times the commentators refuse to acknowledge pretty much anything he does. He won the ball back time after time after time without the commentators saying anything about it, and a few of our better attacks came from his passes into space that again weren't mentioned.

Hopefully this is the start of him getting out of his recent poor form, but I've said that a couple of times lately and he's followed it up with a poor match.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Chelsea did win the title with Kante in that exact role.

I remember him having Matic next to him. When it was Bakayoko it didn't go as good.....

 

[Poborsky's hair]

Pretty much our most consistently performing player with Harry Maguire since their arrival to the club bar first few weeks settling in. Now we have to infect Pogba with his workrate too and get used to him because they are our potentially best starting duo in midfield. It really is unreal, I guess if there was another game today he could easily play and run another 13km.

 

[MadDogg]

Best game for a little while. Maybe tries less expansive work when he has Pogba next to him?

The thing is that he HAS to be the main ball-player in midfield when he's next to McTominay or Matic. McTominay simply isn't good enough on the ball and doesn't get involved enough, and Matic spends most of the match playing in the defence. Fred, while doing the job better than them, certainly isn't good enough on the ball that he should be the one we are relying on to control and create. It's like asking Kante to play that role and then complaining that he's not good enough.

When Fred plays next to Pogba he should, in theory at least, find it easier as he doesn't have to be the main creator, and he should also have more time and space since the opposition can't focus on him as much.

 

[Van Piorsing]

Some of his diagonal passing was decent today, which I don't think was his main task.

We need to find team balance when we press and transform into attack, perhaps he'll find rhythm too.

 

[criticalanalysis]

I haven't checked but I guess Fred had a break during the international games because it showed.

He was back to his busy best in terms of pressing and harrying. However I thought he was sloppy with the ball more than a few times.

Hopefully he can kick on and recapture some of that form from last year where he was a beast.

 

[Ali Dia]

He’s played against quite a few players that everyone is mad for us to sign and he’s won the midfield battle. I think our main problem is not creating enough chances when Bruno isn’t at it. A fit Pogba should help with that. I’d continue with Pogba Fred Bruno when they are fit.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

Couple of trademark “hands in the air” apologies. I’m not a fan of his, but he did well tonight, passing is hit and miss (not the completion stats please...), but lots of energy and some good interceptions.

don’t really see him and Pogba working, both sloppy with their passing.

 

[WR10]

He’s taken the standing tackle to a whole new level. The way he flicks the ball into a pass out of a tackle is a unique trait.

Too bad he is woeful at mostly everything else

 

[#07]

I can't believe so many people on the CAF think Fred was really good tonight. He struggles to pass the ball more than 10m. People have been watching crap for so long that they've convinced themselves Fred is at an acceptable level. Phil Neville was significantly better in midfield than Fred, and nobody ever raved about Phil Neville's performances for United. Putting it about a bit cannot be the benchmark for a Man Utd midfield player.

 

[Eriku]

I can't believe so many people on the CAF think Fred was really good tonight. He struggles to pass the ball more than 10m. People have been watching crap for so long that they've convinced themselves Fred is at an acceptable level. Phil Neville was significantly better in midfield than Fred, and nobody ever raved about Phil Neville's performances for United. Putting it about a bit cannot be the benchmark for a Man Utd midfield player.

Wow. I thought he was excellent tonight. Industrious, pressed all over, ran and covered channels well, did his usual thing of intercepting and dispossessing, and kept the ball moving and switched play nicely. I really don’t see how anybody can be negative about his performance tonight.