[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

Not on the bench? He’s comfortably as good as Hargreaves ever was and brings a lot of the qualities Fergie loved in Park. I would also argue there’s not much between him and Fletcher in terms of what they bring to the team.

he’s nowhere near the standard of Hargreaves, who often played at RB because of the standard of the players we had in the squad, and unfortunately we never saw the best of him due to injuries - but even so, a much better player than Fred.

he has some of the qualities of Park - energy and tenacity, but again that’s a disservice to compare the two. Park was a big game player, capable of putting in match winning performances (not goals and assists). You don’t see that from Fred.

 

[Falcow]

how much of an impact did Fred have on our exit from the CL and the FA Cup?

I honestly think the OTT praise comes from seeing him “put in a shift” which is an outdated way of judging players.

Huge....if he had played in Istanbul we wouldn't have got shafted the way we did. If he had been available for Leipzig away we wouldn't have conceded three shit goals either. So yeah he absence in those two games was crucial and the main reason why we were eliminated from the CL. Clearly his absence and not his presence were the problem. Funny how we won the CL games he played but lost the ones we didnt.

The FA cup, yeah he was shit v Leicester, wasnt the only one mind you, perhaps having a tough game away in Milan which ended a mere 65 hours before the Leicester game kicked off (also away) might have something to do with it but let's ignore that.

 

[Renegade]

Not on the bench? He’s comfortably as good as Hargreaves ever was and brings a lot of the qualities Fergie loved in Park. I would also argue there’s not much between him and Fletcher in terms of what they bring to the team.

Fred is no where near the level of Fletcher 09-11. The closest player I’d compare him from that past squad is Anderson.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Fred is no where near the level of Fletcher 09-11. The closest player I’d compare him from that past squad is Anderson.

He’s absolutely streets ahead of Anderson, believe me.

 

[stevoc]

When somebody makes a claim that somebody only passes sideways, a claim that can be directly seen by stats how that player compares to others in his same position, wouldn't you say that's a fair use of stats? Fred tends to pass it forward further and more often than most of the players he tends to be directly compared to. You can take that stat as you want, I don't actually see it as being hugely important. What it does do however is show that the claim that he does nothing but make simple sideways passes is quantifiably false.

It is a fair use of stats if people were really saying that but when people say that and I probably have, should it be taken so literally? They more than likely mean he mostly passes sideways and to be fair the guy you were replying to didn't even say he only passes sideways.

His stats are great as he picks up the ball in front of the defence, in acres of space, and pings a square ball left or right.

Almost every week this thread degenerates into a stats fest after each game and lets be honest here it does get tedious. For me anyway and at this point is don't think those stats are changing any opinions on him.

At this point there are two main camps on Fred from what I've seen the people whose opinion on him seems to be based on stats and who think that anyone who dismisses those stats are blinkered or biased. (Which may be true).

And the second camp who base their opinion on him from watching the games and think the other lot don't actually watch him and simply base their opinion on raw stats taken out of context. (Which may also be partly true)

The truth is probably somewhere in the middle, Fred's an effective if awkward passer of the ball.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

Huge....if he had played in Istanbul we wouldn't have got shafted the way we did. If he had been available for Leipzig away we wouldn't have conceded three shit goals either. So yeah he absence in those two games was crucial and the main reason why we were eliminated from the CL. Clearly his absence and not his presence were the problem. Funny how we won the CL games he played but lost the ones we didnt.

The FA cup, yeah he was shit v Leicester, wasnt the only one mind you, perhaps having a tough game away in Milan which ended a mere 65 hours before the Leicester game kicked off (also away) might have something to do with it but let's ignore that.

remind me why he wasn’t available for the game in Germany? I tend not to use games players don’t play on as a positive or a negative, as it’s just pure conjecture - you can’t with any confidence state he would have had such impacts in games he wasn’t playing in, especially when it’s a player who is so inconsistent. If we are talking about the likes of Cantona, Keane or Ronaldo then sure, but not Fred.

 

[stevoc]

Not on the bench? He’s comfortably as good as Hargreaves ever was and brings a lot of the qualities Fergie loved in Park. I would also argue there’s not much between him and Fletcher in terms of what they bring to the team.

That's your opinion mate fair enough you must rate him highly, but personally I think he's not on the same level of Fletcher or Hargreaves. He has similar energy and workrate to Park but I think Park was a better technically than Fred personally.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

It is a fair use of stats if people were really saying that but when people say that and I probably have, should it be taken so literally? They more than likely mean he mostly passes sideways and to be fair the guy you were replying to didn't even say he only passes sideways.



Almost every week this thread degenerates into a stats fest after each game and lets be honest here it does get tedious. For me anyway and at this point is don't think those stats are changing any opinions on him.

At this point there are two main camps on Fred from what I've seen the people whose opinion on him seems to be based on stats and who think that anyone who dismisses those stats are blinkered or biased. (Which may be true).

And the second camp who base their opinion on him from watching the games and think the other lot don't actually watch him and simply base their opinion on raw stats taken out of context. (Which may also be partly true)

The truth is probably somewhere in the middle, Fred's an effective if awkward passer of the ball.

I can assure you I have never looked for or read any stats on Fred (before reading the @MadDogg post above) and rate him highly based entirely on watching games. To be honest, I find it a bit insane that anyone can watch the same games and dismiss him the way I’m seeing in many posts in this thread.

He has been inconsistent this season but he puts in a ridiculous amount of running in every game he plays so the crazy fixture congestion this season (and our reliance on him to be at our best) means that was almost inevitable. Also doesn’t help that it seems to be in his nature to have an occasional massive brain fart (e.g. Leicester) which sours the mood around him for weeks afterwards. Still beggars belief that anyone can watch a performance like the one against Brighton then come in here and slag him off. Nowt so blind...

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

i will never understand the disrespect our fans constantly give Fred

 

[MikeeMike]

So you just ignored the rest of the post where I point out where he is compared to others in his position? Also it's not that 29% of his passes were forward. It's that 29% of his total distance he passed went forward. That means that if he makes a forward diagonal pass out to a winger or fullback it might be classed as a 40 yard pass that only went 20 yards forward. I should also note that it was only 29% in this game, over the course of the season it was 25% as of a couple of months ago, which put him as the 9th most likely to pass forward out of the 27 deeper midfielders I noted when I took the stats. In context ,the highest at that time was Partey with 28% while the lowest was Fabinho at 19% (Fabinho's stats were taken from last season when he actually played in the midfield).


When somebody makes a claim that somebody only passes sideways, a claim that can be directly seen by stats how that player compares to others in his same position, wouldn't you say that's a fair use of stats? Fred tends to pass it forward further and more often than most of the players he tends to be directly compared to. You can take that stat as you want, I don't actually see it as being hugely important. What it does do however is show that the claim that he does nothing but make simple sideways passes is quantifiably false.

Sorry. So 29% of distance he passed went forward. So 79% was backward/square. Agreed?

 

[MadDogg]

It is a fair use of stats if people were really saying that but when people say that and I probably have, should it be taken so literally? They more than likely mean he mostly passes sideways and to be fair the guy you were replying to didn't even say he only passes sideways.

It's a regular comment that people make - that Fred only makes easy and sideways passes and never makes forward creative passes. Obviously (I hope) they don't mean 'only', but I'm sure what they do mean is that he makes easy, sideways passes far more than most others in his position. Why else would they make that claim? And stats say that that really isn't the case, and is either people underrating how much Fred does or overrating how much most others do. Either way it's obviously a harsh criticism since he's actually above average.

Almost every week this thread degenerates into a stats fest after each game and lets be honest here it does get tedious. For me anyway and at this point is don't think those stats are changing any opinions on him.

At this point there are two main camps on Fred from what I've seen the people whose opinion on him seems to be based on stats and who think that anyone who dismisses those stats are blinkered or biased. (Which may be true).

And the second camp who base their opinion on him from watching the games and think the other lot don't actually watch him and simply base their opinion on raw stats taken out of context. (Which may also be partly true)

The truth is probably somewhere in the middle, Fred's an effective if awkward passer of the ball.

I don't think anybody bases their opinion on him on stats. We all base our opinion on him from watching games. It's when different people seem to see significantly different things and have disagreements that people then go look at the stats to see how they stack up. And in Fred's particular case the stats generally tend to say that some people are incredibly harsh with some of their criticisms.

 

[MadDogg]

Not on the bench? He’s comfortably as good as Hargreaves ever was and brings a lot of the qualities Fergie loved in Park. I would also argue there’s not much between him and Fletcher in terms of what they bring to the team.

Fletch for his peak 18-24 months was definitely better, but I'd probably take Fred over him before (and after) that period. Fred's definitely better than Hargreaves was for us though (at least in central midfield, he was actually quite good out on the right). Hargreaves was quite disappointing for us in central positions.

 

[MadDogg]

Sorry. So 29% of distance he passed went forward. So 79% was backward/square. Agreed?

Sorry. So you're a troll. Agreed?

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

It's a regular comment that people make - that Fred only makes easy and sideways passes and never makes forward creative passes. Obviously (I hope) they don't mean 'only', but I'm sure what they do mean is that he makes easy, sideways passes far more than most others in his position. Why else would they make that claim? And stats say that that really isn't the case, and is either people underrating how much Fred does or overrating how much most others do. Either way it's obviously a harsh criticism since he's actually above average.


I don't think anybody bases their opinion on him on stats. We all base our opinion on him from watching games. It's when different people seem to see significantly different things and have disagreements that people then go look at the stats to see how they stack up.

I think we disagree on the effectiveness on Fred - and I’m not one who has commentated on the direction of his passes.

where we can agree is the over reliance of stat usage of some posters to verify their opinion.

whatever your perspective on Fred, you can go out there and find a stat to back it up. That all seems a bit pointless.

ultimately, football is a game of opinions, and different perspectives, there is no black/ white wrong answer. Unless the question is “which club do you want to see lose this weekend”, and the answer is Liverpool every time.

 

[MadDogg]

Unless the question is “which club do you want to see lose this weekend”, and the answer is Liverpool every time.

No, feck you! Let me just find a stat to disagree with that!

 

[ivaldo]

I honestly think the OTT praise comes from seeing him “put in a shift” which is an outdated way of judging players.

It's just such a dishonest and reductive way of characterizing Fred as a player. It doesn't speak of his actual effectiveness but just attempts to devalue his contribution, much like saying Haaland 'sticks the ball in the net a few times,' or Henderson makes a 'couple of routine saves.' Why not access what that 'shift' does for the team? It's imperative to the way we play, and it's why, invariably, we play better with him in the team than without. He might not be cosmopolitan enough for you, you might not consider workrate and pressing as important traits in football, but a cursory glance at recent winners of the PL will bring a about a very different conclusion, as would looking at Fergies greatest sides.

 

[Marwood]

How do people watch players of the ilk of Kroos and Modric, even the lesser known players in top teams like Real, Bayern etc., how composed, precise, efficient and calculated they are on the ball and then still come to conclusion that Fred is someone who should be mainstay of Manchester United's midfield. But maybe then folks don't really watch football outside of Manchester United matches.

The bar has been set so low for most our players and it is no wonder that, year after year, Manchester United drop out of competitions and title races.

Fred will put in another few decent performances in some games, get lauded and then put in stinkers in other games causing for the team to drop out of a tournament or the run for the title. It is not just Fred though. There are many players in this team who are skilled yes, but very low on footballing IQ.

How many people want Fred as a "mainstay" of the midfield? Can you quote any?

I think the general concensus is that he's got some real positives to his game but will ultimately need replacing as a starter if we're to get back to the top.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

It's just such a dishonest way of characterizing Fred as a player. It doesn't speak of his actual effectiveness but just attempts to devalue his contribution, much like saying Haaland 'sticks the ball in the net a few times,' or Henderson makes a 'couple of routine saves.' Why not access what that 'shift' does for the team? It's imperative to the way we play, and it's why, invariably, we play better with him in the team than without. He might not be cosmopolitan enough for you, you might not consider workrate and pressing as important traits in football, but a cursory glance at recent winners of the PL will bring a about a very different conclusion, as would looking at Fergies greatest sides.

the fact it’s the only thing people can say about him is the issue.

obviously I want to see effort and energy from players - he’s the opposite of Matic in that respect, and so people seek the qualities that are deficient in him.

he doesn’t bring enough else to his game at all.

work rate is nowhere near enough.

If you look at the likes of Liverpool, City and United teams that won the PL team, of course they had work rate, but also every midfielder who played for those teams had/ have far more quality than Fred.

No idea what you mean by ‘cosmopolitan’?

 

[Redlyn]

Not on the bench? He’s comfortably as good as Hargreaves ever was and brings a lot of the qualities Fergie loved in Park. I would also argue there’s not much between him and Fletcher in terms of what they bring to the team.

BTW Park didnt make the CL final bench.

 

[ivaldo]

the fact it’s the only thing people can say about him is the issue.

obviously I want to see effort and energy from players - he’s the opposite of Matic in that respect, and so people seek the qualities that are deficient in him.

he doesn’t bring enough else to his game at all.

work rate is nowhere near enough.

If you look at the likes of Liverpool, City and United teams that won the PL team, of course they had work rate, but also every midfielder who played for those teams had/ have far more quality than Fred.

No idea what you mean by ‘cosmopolitan’?

Well it isn't. And when people have mentioned other aspects of his game that are decent and used stats to back it up, those stats are disregarded and opposed to challenged. His tackling, positioning and intercepting are all lumped in with 'workrate,' and his willingness to take risks to win the ball back will then be used to criticize those aspects of his game. It's strange that players like Bruno are (rightfully) praised for taking risks to attain a high reward, but when it comes to winning the ball back in highly promising positions it's frowned upon if he doesn't succeed. Just look at how many goals we've scored this season starting from Fred recovering possession in dangerous areas of the pitch.

And so we move onto the next stage of discussion, where his capacity to press and win the ball back is not considered a quality, but a prerequisite for being a professional footballer, as if all professional footballers should be doing what he's doing. The only reason he wins the ball back as often as he does is because of effort and energy? Fred is intelligent in the way he does it, as was Herrera, and that appears to be missed by many who will, as I say, debase his contribution.

Henderson doesn't have more quality on the ball than Fred, nor does the likes of Kante, and it's always conveniently ignored that Pep tried to sign Fred before we signed him. Fergie used to play CBs in midfield FFS.

I mean a more worldly or Continental style of play, if you like, because Fred's qualities are so often likened and therefore disregarded as a sort of unsophisticated 'Britishness,' lacking in technical quality and therefore not elite.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

Well it isn't. And when people have mentioned other aspects of his game that are decent and used stats to back it up, those stats are disregarded and opposed to challenged. His tackling, positioning and intercepting are all lumped in with 'workrate,' and his willingness to take risks to win the ball back will then be used to criticize those aspects of his game. It's strange that players like Bruno are (rightfully) praised for taking risks to attain a high reward, but when it comes to winning the ball back in highly promising positions it's frowned upon if he doesn't succeed. Just look at how many goals we've scored this season starting from Fred recovering possession in dangerous areas of the pitch.

And so we move onto the next stage of discussion, where his capacity to press and win the ball back is not considered a quality, but a prerequisite for being a professional footballer, as if all professional footballers should be doing what he's doing. The only reason he wins the ball back as often as he does is because of effort and energy? Fred is intelligent in the way he does it, as was Herrera, and that appears to be missed by many who will, as I say, debase his contribution.

Henderson doesn't have more quality on the ball than Fred, nor does the likes of Kante, and it's always conveniently ignored that Pep tried to sign Fred before we signed him. Fergie used to play CBs in midfield FFS.

I mean a more worldly or Continental style of play, if you like, because Fred's qualities are so often likened and therefore disregarded as a sort of unsophisticated 'Britishness,' lacking in technical quality and therefore not elite.

Henderson and Kante are far better players than Fred. Henderson of 5 years ago was average, but as much as it pains me to say it, he’s been a fantastic player over the past 3-4 years, and is obviously a superior player.

I doubt you would find any neutral who thinks Fred is on par with Kante.

Pep wanted Fred, he also wanted Sanchez. Its not ignored. It’s actually stated very often. It’s such an utterly bizarre defence of him, Pep makes as many transfer mistakes as any other manager, just City can afford to replace easily and buy someone else.

it’s a laughable defence of him.

I have no issue with actually defending him, but using Pep’s interest in him as a barometer of quality is clutching at straws.

 

[ivaldo]

Henderson and Kante are far better players than Fred. Henderson of 5 years ago was average, but as much as it pains me to say it, he’s been a fantastic player over the past 3-4 years, and is obviously a superior player.

I doubt you would find any neutral who thinks Fred is on par with Kante.

Pep wanted Fred, he also wanted Sanchez. Its not ignored. It’s actually stated very often. It’s such an utterly bizarre defence of him, Pep makes as many transfer mistakes as any other manager, just City can afford to replace easily and buy someone else.

it’s a laughable defence of him.

I have no issue with actually defending him, but using Pep’s interest in him as a barometer of quality is clutching at straws.

Christ, where to begin?

Feel free to point out where I said Fred is on par with Kante. We were merely discussing the obvious inclusion of players who's key asset is the same as Freds in successful teams, Kante being an obvious choice. Though I understand why you chose not to continue that discussion and went for the strawman instead. Unless of course you're going to argue that Kante is a wonderfully technical player?

Secondly, Henderson is a fantastic player who is obviously superior? Speaking of laughable defences...

Yes. He wanted Sanchez because he had been world class. Not because he was a limited player that just ran about a bit, but because he had the ability to change games. Are you now denying that Sanchez was an excellent player? Pep wanted him for the abilities he had seen in him. Whether Sanchez was actually still capable of delivering it is irrelevant to the discussion. Again, the conflation is unsurprising. Peps interest in Fred wasn't because he thought he was the next Kroos. It's because he values a players ability to win the ball back quickly and effectively and more the ball on swiftly. If you want to offer up a different reason why he was interested in Fred then feel free. I imagine this will go on the pile of points ignored. No comparisons, no stats, no examples. It wasn't the barometer, it was one point of many that was listed that you are now desperately clinging to because you think it might be somewhere you can hold your ground.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

Christ, where to begin?

Feel free to point out where I said Fred is on par with Kante. We were merely discussing the obvious inclusion of players who's key asset is the same as Freds in successful teams, Kante being an obvious choice. Though I understand why you chose not to continue that discussion and went for the strawman instead. Unless of course you're going to argue that Kante is a wonderfully technical player?

Secondly, Henderson is a fantastic player who is obviously superior? Speaking of laughable defences...

Yes. He wanted Sanchez because he had been world class. Not because he was a limited player that just ran about a bit, but because he had the ability to change games. Are you now denying that Sanchez was an excellent player? Pep wanted him for the abilities he had seen in him. Whether Sanchez was actually still capable of delivering it is irrelevant to the discussion. Again, the conflation is unsurprising. Peps interest in Fred wasn't because he thought he was the next Kroos. It's because he values a players ability to win the ball back quickly and effectively and more the ball on swiftly. If you want to offer up a different reason why he was interested in Fred then feel free. I imagine this will go on the pile of points ignored. No comparisons, no stats, no examples. It wasn't the barometer, it was one point of many that was listed that you are now desperately clinging to because you think it might be somewhere you can hold your ground.

bloody hell. Your attempt at getting in your high horse is... interesting.

you brought up Henderson and Kante, both of which I pointed out are far superior players, and yes, both do have better quality on the ball. Love it when people fire in the strawman

As I pointed out earlier, and you ignored... you do need work rate, but you need far more than just that. If you just value these “key assets“ as you call them, then there is little value of Fred, as you need much much more to be a good midfielder, the likes of which City, Liverpool and Man United title winning teams had/ have. Fred clearly wouldn’t get in any of those teams as a starter.

I’m sure he could have played instead of Cleverly or Djemba x 2. But not instead of the likes of Keane, Scholes, Butt, P.Neville, Johnstone (what an underrated player he was by the way), Hargreaves, Carrick, Ince, Fletcher, Robson and many others who I can’t remember off the top of my head. Yes P.Neville was a more effective midfielder than Fred.

point missed on Sanchez and Pep’s signings. whoosh. No one would deny Sanchez was fantastic at Arsenal for a number of seasons

Sanchez was a disaster, and would likely have been a disaster at City. In retrospect, we can all see this. The rot had set in at Arsenal already.

“Whether Sanchez was actually still capable of delivering it is irrelevant to the discussion.”

I would suggest that’s highly relevant when deciding whether to buy a player and pay him a massive wage. Come on. Thanks

But you put so much faith in Pep and his transfers/ wanted list that you blindly take that as fact that the said player should be a good transfer. You can’t use the same standard to praise Fred (because he was wanted by City) when we have another clear example of a player (wanted by City) who was a busted flush.

as I said previously, Pep had bought many duds. So did the greatest manager of all time, our very own Fergie. Just because a manager has an interest in a player, doesn’t mean that’s a barometer of how good they are, it’s laughable - still you persist.

Fergie bough the likes of Djemba x 2, Klebson and Liam Miller - doesn’t make them good players. Pep bought the likes of Nolito, Angelino, Danilo, has Mendy been worth €50m? That’s not just at city, he has many other poor signings. That’s not a criticism of Pep, all managers make bad signings - it’s why their ‘interest’ in a player has no substance when evaluating that players subsequent performance. Hopefully that’s clear.

 

[ivaldo]

bloody hell. Your attempt at getting in your high horse is... interesting.

you brought up Henderson and Kante, both of which I pointed out are far superior players, and yes, both do have better quality on the ball. Love it when people fire in the strawman

As I pointed out earlier, and you ignored... you do need work rate, but you need far more than just that. If you just value these “key assets“ as you call them, then there is little value of Fred, as you need much much more to be a good midfielder, the likes of which City, Liverpool and Man United title winning teams had/ have. Fred clearly wouldn’t get in any of those teams as a starter.

I’m sure he could have played instead of Cleverly or Djemba x 2. But not instead of the likes of Keane, Scholes, Butt, P.Neville, Johnstone (what an underrated player he was by the way), Hargreaves, Carrick, Ince, Fletcher, Robson and many others who I can’t remember off the top of my head. Yes P.Neville was a more effective midfielder than Fred.

point missed on Sanchez and Pep’s signings. whoosh. No one would deny Sanchez was fantastic at Arsenal for a number of seasons

Sanchez was a disaster, and would likely have been a disaster at City. In retrospect, we can all see this. The rot had set in at Arsenal already.

But you put so much faith in Pep and his transfers/ wanted list that you blindly take that as fact that the said player should be a good transfer. You can’t use the same standard to praise Fred (because he was wanted by City) when we have another clear example of a player (wanted by City) who was a busted flush.

as I said previously, Pep had bought many duds. So did the greatest manager of all time, our very own Fergie. Just because a manager has an interest in a player, doesn’t mean that’s a barometer of how good they are, it’s laughable - still you persist.

Fergie bough the likes of Djemba x 2, Klebson and Liam Miller - doesn’t make them good players. Pep bought the likes of Nolito, Angelino, Danilo, has Mendy been worth €50m? That’s just at city, he has many other poor signings. That’s not a criticism of Pep, all managers make bad signings - it’s why their ‘interest’ in a player has no substance when evaluating that players subsequent performance. Hopefully that’s clear.

Yes, as examples of similar players in successful teams. This is the 3rd time I'm making this point now. I would hope you'd have given up on pretence that I was comparing the two in ability, rather than role, but you insist on continuing because it's inconvenient to accept there is most definitely a place for a Fred type in successful teams. Kante better on the ball? We really are getting desperate now, aren't we? I love it when people ignore the strawman. It wouldn't need to be 'fired' if you replied to the points I make and not the points you would like me to make.

Ignored? Pretty sure my response about you deciding statistical evidence doesn't count covers that. What's that? You've got proof Fred doesn't have the passing of a quadriplegic? Well I can make various non-committal statements that counterbalances that!

Phil Neville a more impressive midfielder than Fred. We continue down the road of obscene. 'Look how terrible I think he is everybody!'

Predictably, we see another post devoted to the mention of Pep; that is, the one sentence I mentioned him in as an example of many.

Yeah, I missed the point. As you say, whoosh! I genuinely don't know how I can make this any simpler. I'll give it it one more go. Pep was used as an example NOT because his interest is a barometer of how good a player is, but because of the TYPE of player he is. You know, the talentless water carrier? Because he, like every other manager and team mentioned, acknowledge the importance of that role and don't try to disregard the abilities needed to play it. Which goes neatly back to the original point where you tried to reduce Fred's abilities to running about and trying hard, and you've continued in this very post. That's why you've now moved on to wildly ridiculous statements about how other basic players are better and how horrendous the rest of Fred's game is. You've taken comfort in the absurd. Hopefully that's clear.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

Yes, as examples of similar players in successful teams. This is the 3rd time I'm making this point now. I would hope you'd have given up on pretence that I was comparing the two in ability, rather than role, but you insist on continuing because it's inconvenient to accept there is most definitely a place for a Fred type in successful teams. Kante better on the ball? We really are getting desperate now, aren't we? I love it when people ignore the strawman. It wouldn't need to be 'fired' if you replied to the points I make and not the points you would like me to make.

Ignored? Pretty sure my response about you deciding statistical evidence doesn't count covers that. What's that? You've got proof Fred doesn't have the passing of a quadriplegic? Well I can make various non-committal statements that counterbalances that!

Phil Neville a more impressive midfielder than Fred. We continue down the road of obscene. 'Look how terrible I think he is everybody!'

Predictably, we see another post devoted to the mention of Pep; that is, the one sentence I mentioned him in as an example of many.

Yeah, I missed the point. As you say, whoosh! I genuinely don't know how I can make this any simpler. I'll give it it one more go. Pep was used as an example NOT because his interest is a barometer of how good a player is, but because he was interested in Fred because of the TYPE of player he is. You know, the talentless water carrier you've decided he is? Because he, like every other manager and team mentioned, acknowledge the importance of that role. So your childish exaggeration of his abilities still doesn't detract from how important his abilities are to a success team. That's why you've now move on to wildly ridiculous statements about how other basic players are better and how horrendous the rest of his game is. You've taken comfort in the absurd. I hope that clears that up for you.

And goodnight.

 

[Falcow]

remind me why he wasn’t available for the game in Germany? I tend not to use games players don’t play on as a positive or a negative, as it’s just pure conjecture - you can’t with any confidence state he would have had such impacts in games he wasn’t playing in, especially when it’s a player who is so inconsistent. If we are talking about the likes of Cantona, Keane or Ronaldo then sure, but not Fred.

I didn't realise we were comparing him to Keane, Cantona and Ronaldo now. High standards indeed. Saying he is inconsistent is very subjective by the way and based on his performances over the last two years, one I and many others would disagree with.

Maybe it is just coincidence that both Leipzig and Istanbul tore through us like there was no one in midfield to stop them. All 5 of those goals were horrendous to concede. Reminds me of the Sheffield United game at home recently which we lost in which he didnt play - another game we wouldnt have lost had he played or CP at home this season, or Spurs at home this season....that's a hell of lot of conjecture.

The only thing the sending off proves is that we were lost without him. We hockeyed RB 5-0 with Fred in the side, a game in which he was absaloutely phenomenal in (as he was in the away game v PSG that we also won).

As for the sending off, you can blame Fred, Ole for not making the sub at half time or the prick of a ref who decided that two wrongs would make a right and sent him off for what was never a second yellow.

As for our FA cup exit, I'll assume you agree with me that tiredness after a gruelling away game in Italy 2.5 days earlier was the main factor in the teams poor performance. Blaming Fred for both exits is just agenda driven really.

 

[ivaldo]

I didn't realise we were comparing him to Keane, Cantona and Ronaldo now. High standards indeed. Saying he is inconsistent is very subjective by the way and based on his performances over the last two years, one I and many others would disagree with.

Maybe it is just coincidence that both Leipzig and Istanbul tore through us like there was no one in midfield to stop them. All 5 of those goals were horrendous to concede. Reminds me of the Sheffield United game at home recently which we lost in which he didnt play - another game we wouldnt have lost had he played or CP at home this season, or Spurs at home this season....that's a hell of lot of conjecture.

The only thing the sending off proves is that we were lost without him. We hockeyed RB 5-0 with Fred in the side, a game in which he was absaloutely phenomenal in (as he was in the away game v PSG that we also won).

As for the sending off, you can blame Fred, Ole for not making the sub at half time or the prick of a ref who decided that two wrongs would make a right and sent him off for what was never a second yellow.

As for our FA cup exit, I'll assume you agree with me that tiredness after a gruelling away game in Italy 2.5 days earlier was the main factor in the teams poor performance. Blaming Fred for both exits is just agenda driven really.

Did you expect any less? Every post he makes on the matter goes more towards the extreme. We're at the point now where Fred just runs around a lot. It's no surprise he's comparing him to some of history's greatest players for emphasis.

 

[ivaldo]

And goodnight.

Good choice to stop yourself there.

 

[AR87]

How many people want Fred as a "mainstay" of the midfield? Can you quote any?

I think the general concensus is that he's got some real positives to his game but will ultimately need replacing as a starter if we're to get back to the top.

Exactly this.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

I didn't realise we were comparing him to Keane, Cantona and Ronaldo now. High standards indeed. Saying he is inconsistent is very subjective by the way and based on his performances over the last two years, one I and many others would disagree with.

Maybe it is just coincidence that both Leipzig and Istanbul tore through us like there was no one in midfield to stop them. All 5 of those goals were horrendous to concede. Reminds me of the Sheffield United game at home recently which we lost in which he didnt play - another game we wouldnt have lost had he played or CP at home this season, or Spurs at home this season....that's a hell of lot of conjecture.

The only thing the sending off proves is that we were lost without him. We hockeyed RB 5-0 with Fred in the side, a game in which he was absaloutely phenomenal in (as he was in the away game v PSG that we also won).

As for the sending off, you can blame Fred, Ole for not making the sub at half time or the prick of a ref who decided that two wrongs would make a right and sent him off for what was never a second yellow.

As for our FA cup exit, I'll assume you agree with me that tiredness after a gruelling away game in Italy 2.5 days earlier was the main factor in the teams poor performance. Blaming Fred for both exits is just agenda driven really.

without inciting other posters... feck it, let’s incite him

Please read what I wrote, and I in no way compared him to those players.

I said, you can’t determine that a missing player would have made a difference in those games, unless they were of the calibre of player I mentioned.

For clarity, that applies to most of our squad. @ivaldo - perhaps you should note this before jumping in so quickly.

Even the most staunch supporter of him wouldn’t group him in that way. Would they?

Fred and OGS were both to blame for the defeat at PSG. Both made extremely poor, and frankly inexperienced choices. Yes the ref was at fault (but we have no control over the ref) but Fred should have 100% have been sent off earlier, it’s seemingly forgotten that he headbutted a player in the match...

Anyway. We disagree about Fred, and for absolute clarity I didn’t compare him to anyone.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

Did you expect any less? Every post he makes on the matter goes more towards the extreme. We're at the point now where Fred just runs around a lot. It's no surprise he's comparing him to some of history's greatest players for emphasis.

extremes. Just reread your post.

You've got proof Fred doesn't have the passing of a quadriplegic?

You actually wrote that.

 

[ivaldo]

extremes. Just reread your post.

You've got proof Fred doesn't have the passing of a quadriplegic?

You actually wrote that.

And you took that as sincere? The worrying thing is, you are in yours

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

I thought you had already opted out of replying to my post? You did a laughing green smile and everything!

I thought the insanity of your comment warranted being highlighted.

I’m “extreme”for saying P.Neville was a better midfielder... which he was, and carried it on for Everton. Yes you post this sort of crap...

 

[ivaldo]

I thought the insanity of your comment warranted being highlighted.

I’m “extreme”for saying P.Neville was a better midfielder... which he was, and carried it on for Everton. Yes you post this sort of crap...

And you took that as sincere? The worrying thing is, you are in yours

Maybe you missed it the first time.

 

[Raven]

I thought the insanity of your comment warranted being highlighted.

I’m “extreme”for saying P.Neville was a better midfielder... which he was, and carried it on for Everton. Yes you post this sort of crap...

What in earth are you banging on about? Fred is currently the most important CM in a team that's 2nd and in the latter stages of the Europa, whilst Phil Neville was a squad filler for us and a bang average midfielder for Everton. You seriously haven't got a clue what you're talking about.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

What in earth are you banging on about? Fred is currently the most important CM in a team that's 2nd and in the latter stages of the Europa, whilst Phil Neville was a squad filler for us and a bang average midfielder for Everton. You seriously haven't got a clue what you're talking about.

nothing wrong with a difference in opinion. I’m very pleased about our league position, but clearly we are nowhere near challenging - 2nd doesn’t really mean anything. However we are improving, and making progress.

fred would have the same sort of profile as Neville if he was playing for those United sides. Our current midfield is poor - that applies to all of our midfielders, and we need an overhaul.

 

[Raven]

nothing wrong with a difference in opinion. I’m very pleased about our league position, but clearly we are nowhere near challenging - 2nd doesn’t really mean anything. However we are improving, and making progress.

fred would have the same sort of profile as Neville if he was playing for those United sides. Our current midfield is poor - that applies to all of our midfielders, and we need an overhaul.

Fred is superior in every way I can think of to Phil Neville and not just by a little bit. The comparison is pretty much a show of disrespect to Fred. I agree that our midfield needs to improve but Fred will still be an important part of it even when someone else is brought in because his skill set is very rare. What we're missing is a controlling midfielder. Next Scholes, we had Keane, next to Pirlo, Juve had Vidal, next to next to Jorginho, Chelsea have Kante.

If we continue with 4231, which I assume is the plan, Fred is an excellent player to have in the team. If we switch to a 433 there's more of a discussion to be had but I still think he'd be good as the DM.

 

[lex talionis]

Fred is a fine squad player for United. But I’d like to see more consistency from him (borderline criminal v Leicester City) and an improved short passing game when he creeps into the final third. That’s all. Asking anything more of him would be asking too much from him.

 

[Ali Dia]

Half the posters in here are totally dismissive acting like Fred is the first on the chopping block if we sign a new midfielder but in all likelihood it’s Pogba who’s going to move on (Matic next) and Fred is almost certainly safe for next season. If Pogba stays I don’t think we sign any midfielder. Fred Pogba Bruno will be our preferred lineup but Pogba and Bruno really need to sort out their interplay and dynamic. It’s like 2 separate attacking midfielders playing in each other’s way a lot of the time. If Pogba goes it’ll be rice or someone, Fred, Bruno and I think that’ll be a better and more balanced midfield.

 

[tjb]

Half the posters in here are totally dismissive acting like Fred is the first on the chopping block if we sign a new midfielder but in all likelihood it’s Pogba who’s going to move on (Matic next) and Fred is almost certainly safe for next season. If Pogba stays I don’t think we sign any midfielder. Fred Pogba Bruno will be our preferred lineup but Pogba and Bruno really need to sort out their interplay and dynamic. It’s like 2 separate attacking midfielders playing in each other’s way a lot of the time. If Pogba goes it’ll be rice or someone, Fred, Bruno and I think that’ll be a better and more balanced midfield.

The problem is Fred isn't a DM. His positional play and lack of strength make it impossible for that trio to work in midfield. Fred didn't start after project restart for a reason, when Matic is deemed fit, he was relegated to the bench...ironically this period was by far the best we played under Ole. Why? We were able to control games due to having midfielders that had the on ball ability to passive and recieve the ball with good first touches who didn't get flustered at the slightest pressure and had the the positional intelligence on the ball to recieve passes from the defence and off the ball to prevent counter attacking opportunities. Unfortunately, pogbas poor injury record and Matic getting older and losing his legs meant that the ideal partnership we had in midfield fell apart at the start of the season and we have not been able to replicate that since despite being second.
Playing in a two man midfield means the midfielder has to have a lot about his game and can't afford to be too limited, especially at united who play with wide forwards rather than wingers. Fred isn't a bad player, but he can't be permanently tasked with thag responsibility. If we stick with a 4231, he needs to be replaced with someone more rounded ( maybe even two players).However if we move to a 433 and push Bruno deeper, Fred can function as a ballwinner( rotating with mctominay and vdb), whilst we sign a DM that can help build up and stop counters.