[Cassidy]

He was good against Milan, what you talking about.

First half he was horrible

 

[laughtersassassin]

He was good against Milan, what you talking about.

Good in the second half. First half he was absolutely shocking. Hence why I said first half.

 

[11101]

I'm reluctant to defend Fred, but I feel like we set him up big time tactically. How often he is like an island in the middle of the pitch, tasked with receiving the ball with his back to play and then navigating a way past 4 of their players to pick out our statues who stand in a line up front.

There's no excusing him for today, but our system puts so much pressure on his every touch and pass being immaculate because of the space between our players. For a team that wants to pass out from the back, using mainly 1 midfielder as an outlet, the shape of the team is all wrong. Watch City or other great possession teams to see how they do it.

Exactly this. We put our midfield in impossible situations. Comparing to other PL midfielders, like Ndidi who everybody loved last night, Fred has many more touches per game and makes loads more passes. Inevitably, he will also lose it a bit more, but his pass completion is still better than Ndidi's. Only when you compare him to players like Rodri playing in a stacked, well functioning team, does he start to look inferior.

When he is the only player in the team taking the ball off the defence and trying to get it to the attack, it's asking for trouble. He should be playing the Kante role but we ask him to do everything.

Every midfielder that has played next to Matic in a double pivot looked bad this season. It’s unfortunate but Matic has lost his legs fir this level and shouldn’t be starting games anymore.

The above is a lot better when McTominay and Fred play together, because both will try to get on the ball and cover ground. Matic just makes everybody's job harder.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

First half he was horrible

I suppose it depends if you only view attacking contributions as worthy of judgement and not the countless times he won the ball back or got To Kessie or Metti before they managed to control the ball setting us off on an attack.
he was good first half.

 

[Cassidy]

We have to play a double pivot of players with limited ability on the ball. Says enough

 

[Cassidy]

I suppose it depends if you only view attacking contributions as worthy of judgement and not the countless times he won the ball back or got To Kessie or Metti before they managed to control the ball setting us off on an attack.
he was good first half.

Or the countless times he gave the ball away. Its not just about attacking, his carelessness with the ball creates chances for the opposition. Retaining possession is part of defending

 

[Ekeke]

So obviously he was tumescent and costly yesterday. But I wonder if anyone thinks the same way I do

That actually he isn't in what would be his ideal position. And that he would be at his best going forward and backwards down the left of a midfield diamond where running and coverage is key and doing a bit of defending and a bit of attacking is all thats expected of you, not being a specialist at either. He'd have a proper DM behind him doing the real DM job and then you could have Pogba and Fernandes on the right and in the hole providing the real attacking quality beyond Fred's support running.

I'm not suggesting this is our best setup and I certainly dont think this is the way forward, I think thats phasing Fred (and Matic) out so that McTominay, VDB, Garner and Meijbri have real chances to make a mark. But I do think that he'd do a better job in that role than in a DM role which for me is more about positioning than running. The better you are at positioning the less you need the running... I'm sure Fred could run rings around Carrick but he's half the DM.

 

[DWelbz19]

Even when he was playing his best football, his limitations were too obvious. He isn't good enough technically to start for a team that wants to challenge for big trophies

He just doesn’t look like he plays defensive midfield ‘correctly’. His stamina levels and acceleration paired with his lack of quality on the ball and lack of composure suggest that he should positionally be a defensive winger or a left midfielder in a diamond. He lacks so many of the fundamentals needed to be a holding midfielder. Intercepting the ball only takes you so far.

EDIT: basically what @Ekeke says above.

 

[rakesh289]

Fred is a limited player, but he has been brilliant this season. One of the reasons we are this high up the table. People seem to forget his through ball to Rashford just a few games ago when they criticize him or even the second half vs Milan when we had a midfield overload and some bodies between defense and attack.

He had a horrid game yesterday but you have to remember he runs himself to the ground every game and he has been overplayed.The lack of rotation options and injuries are catching up with us. Fred, Bruno,Rashford all have had a drop in performance recently and it is because of fatigue. Fred used to ping his passes even to player standing 5 yards from him and it used to infuriate me, he hasn't done that last few games and I don't thinks that's an instruction from coaches.

Now that we have players returning from injury we really need to pick our games and rotate players and buy players in the summer who can be direct starters.Hopefully now that we get more free days the players get more rest between games.

 

[Cassidy]

So obviously he was tumescent and costly yesterday. But I wonder if anyone thinks the same way I do

That actually he isn't in what would be his ideal position. And that he would be at his best going forward and backwards down the left of a midfield diamond where running and coverage is key and doing a bit of defending and a bit of attacking is all thats expected of you, not being a specialist at either. He'd have a proper DM behind him doing the real DM job and then you could have Pogba and Fernandes on the right and in the hole providing the real attacking quality beyond Fred's support running.

I'm not suggesting this is our best setup and I certainly dont think this is the way forward, I think thats phasing Fred (and Matic) out so that McTominay, VDB, Garner and Meijbri have real chances to make a mark. But I do think that he'd do a better job in that role than in a DM role which for me is more about positioning than running. The better you are at positioning the less you need the running... I'm sure Fred could run rings around Carrick but he's half the DM.

Basically, he isnt good enough for us and even his best attributes don’t fit how we want to play. Shit signing

 

[Lynty]

Definitely need to keep him as he's great utility/rotation. But he also shouldn't be a regular starter for a team who wants to win titles.

Unfortunately, money has to be spent elsewhere in the squad, so he'll be regular for a few years.

 

[stevoc]

So obviously he was tumescent and costly yesterday. But I wonder if anyone thinks the same way I do

That actually he isn't in what would be his ideal position. And that he would be at his best going forward and backwards down the left of a midfield diamond where running and coverage is key and doing a bit of defending and a bit of attacking is all thats expected of you, not being a specialist at either. He'd have a proper DM behind him doing the real DM job and then you could have Pogba and Fernandes on the right and in the hole providing the real attacking quality beyond Fred's support running.

I'm not suggesting this is our best setup and I certainly dont think this is the way forward, I think thats phasing Fred (and Matic) out so that McTominay, VDB, Garner and Meijbri have real chances to make a mark. But I do think that he'd do a better job in that role than in a DM role which for me is more about positioning than running. The better you are at positioning the less you need the running... I'm sure Fred could run rings around Carrick but he's half the DM.

It isn't, he isn't a DM and he doesn't really have the quality on the ball to dictate the play in front of a DM so yes left side of a diamond or left of a 3 man midfield would be ideal for him. That way his energy and workrate could help defend the left side of the team and cover for Shaw. And his limited passing wouldn't be so exposed because he'd always have Rashford, Shaw and a DM as options close by for the pass when he's under pressure.

But having said that i don't think those formations are ones Solskjaer would use long term or even if they are a good fit for the rest of the squad.

 

[Lappen]

So obviously he was tumescent and costly yesterday. But I wonder if anyone thinks the same way I do

That actually he isn't in what would be his ideal position. And that he would be at his best going forward and backwards down the left of a midfield diamond where running and coverage is key and doing a bit of defending and a bit of attacking is all thats expected of you, not being a specialist at either. He'd have a proper DM behind him doing the real DM job and then you could have Pogba and Fernandes on the right and in the hole providing the real attacking quality beyond Fred's support running.

I'm not suggesting this is our best setup and I certainly dont think this is the way forward, I think thats phasing Fred (and Matic) out so that McTominay, VDB, Garner and Meijbri have real chances to make a mark. But I do think that he'd do a better job in that role than in a DM role which for me is more about positioning than running. The better you are at positioning the less you need the running... I'm sure Fred could run rings around Carrick but he's half the DM.

I think you are right, but its werry worrying that every opponents just wait for us to play Fred and then put some press on him, and he lose the ball. And that hoppen close to half of the times yesterday. And unfortunately it doesn't matter where on the pitch it happens, as a DM or on the left, its still not good unogh.

I think he had a quite long time playing really good last season, and I believe it was when he played regularly. I'm not shore he will play regularly and now I'm gone from believing in him to not have more believe.
Yesterdays game was awful, but he has been bad fore some time now. If he needs to be a starter to perform good enough, than we have a problem with him I think.
But you are also right, he is not a CDM, no doubt about that.
Worst scenario for me, Pogba leave, and we will be forced to play with a new CDM and McFred in front of that next year. DvdB subs now and then.

If you play as a kind of box to box, you have to know how to finish from outside the box. He absolutely doesn't...
He really need to find his game again...

 

[Kostov]

Exactly this. We put our midfield in impossible situations. Comparing to other PL midfielders, like Ndidi who everybody loved last night, Fred has many more touches per game and makes loads more passes. Inevitably, he will also lose it a bit more, but his pass completion is still better than Ndidi's. Only when you compare him to players like Rodri playing in a stacked, well functioning team, does he start to look inferior.

When he is the only player in the team taking the ball off the defence and trying to get it to the attack, it's asking for trouble. He should be playing the Kante role but we ask him to do everything.





The above is a lot better when McTominay and Fred play together, because both will try to get on the ball and cover ground. Matic just makes everybody's job harder.

Is there any other excuse left for Fred now? We put him in difficult position by passing to him? You mention Kante, but Kante is like prime Ronaldinho on the ball compared to Fred, and that has nothing to do with the system.

 

[11101]

Is there any other excuse left for Fred now? We put him in difficult position by passing to him? You mention Kante, but Kante is like prime Ronaldinho on the ball compared to Fred, and that has nothing to do with the system.

Yet Fred makes more passes, both long and short, makes more forward passes, has better passing accuracy, recovers the ball more and loses possession less. On the ball, the only thing Kante does more of is backwards passes...

 

[Cassidy]

Yet Fred makes more passes, both long and short, makes more forward passes, has better passing accuracy, recovers the ball more and loses possession less. On the ball, the only thing Kante does more of is backwards passes...

This isnt true. Kantes transition of the ball from his own box to opposition box via dribbling is lightyears ahead of anything Fred can do on the ball. Kantes ability and short passing game under the press is also lightyears ahead of Freds

 

[Josh 76]

Very strange player.
Looks crap most of the time then once in a while pulls out a performance, which makes him look world class.

 

[UpWithRivers]

It feels when he plays with Matic he is being asked to be the more progressive midfielder and he collapses. It just all seems rushed and forced and un natural. When he plays next to McTominay or even Pogba he is the main DM even though he is sht at being pure DM, he is much more comfortable and plays his game.

 

[laughtersassassin]

I suppose it depends if you only view attacking contributions as worthy of judgement and not the countless times he won the ball back or got To Kessie or Metti before they managed to control the ball setting us off on an attack.
he was good first half.

Passing and taking a proper touch are basic contributions and not attacking ones. He was awful man.

 

[mancan92]

Ndidi does everything Fred does well, but better. As well as having the added bonus of being able to control the ball. Unbelievable that people have had years to watch him, and still think he doesn’t need upgrading.

Yep ndidi showed what we are missing he's miles better than Fred. Put him with pogba and Bruno and I believe he have a title winning midfield

 

[acnumber9]

If Fred's ability was equal to his passion and work-rate, he'd be fantastic. I'd much rather have Fred in the team than Martial, who is literally stealing a living.

There’s no performance enhancing drug that you can take to improve footballing ability.

 

[11101]

This isnt true. Kantes transition of the ball from his own box to opposition box via dribbling is lightyears ahead of anything Fred can do on the ball. Kantes ability and short passing game under the press is also lightyears ahead of Freds

You can look it up for yourself if you don't believe it. Fred has long been a whipping boy on here but the stats don't back it up.

 

[acnumber9]

Exactly this. We put our midfield in impossible situations. Comparing to other PL midfielders, like Ndidi who everybody loved last night, Fred has many more touches per game and makes loads more passes. Inevitably, he will also lose it a bit more, but his pass completion is still better than Ndidi's. Only when you compare him to players like Rodri playing in a stacked, well functioning team, does he start to look inferior.

When he is the only player in the team taking the ball off the defence and trying to get it to the attack, it's asking for trouble. He should be playing the Kante role but we ask him to do everything.





The above is a lot better when McTominay and Fred play together, because both will try to get on the ball and cover ground. Matic just makes everybody's job harder.

McTominay regularly gets on the ball less than any other midfielder we have.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

First half he was horrible

Sums him up. Plays like a 16 year old prodigy. Wank signing. 50 million and we get someone this limited whose performances fluctuate absurdly. No composure whatsoever.

 

[Cassidy]

You can look it up for yourself if you don't believe it. Fred has long been a whipping boy on here but the stats don't back it up.

The part I bolded isnt something that can be looked up. Stats dont tell full stories and need to be read in context. Do you disgaree with what I said about transition and dealing with pressing?

 

[Kostov]

Yet Fred makes more passes, both long and short, makes more forward passes, has better passing accuracy, recovers the ball more and loses possession less. On the ball, the only thing Kante does more of is backwards passes...

Try and watch them play instead of barking on the stats info.

 

[mancan92]

You can look it up for yourself if you don't believe it. Fred has long been a whipping boy on here but the stats don't back it up.

I'm into stats aswell but nobody watching those two players would ever say Fred is better on the ball.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Exactly this. We put our midfield in impossible situations. Comparing to other PL midfielders, like Ndidi who everybody loved last night, Fred has many more touches per game and makes loads more passes. Inevitably, he will also lose it a bit more.

It's one thing to lose the ball and another to do so in such suicidal areas. The pass from Maguire was not that difficult for a midfielder with a bit of composure. But Fred plays like he's had Viagra for the legs or something.

Also, that his ball retention and passing stats are compared to someone who is a genuine DM who protects the back 4 something Fred is not very good at, is worrying. That's the issue with both Fred and Mctominay, they're not good enough defensively to justify being so average on the ball.

 

[11101]

The part I bolded isnt something that can be looked up. Stats dont tell full stories and need to be read in context. Do you disgaree with what I said about transition and dealing with pressing?

Kante is better at bring the ball forward through dribbling, but he is no better on the turn or in quick passing. The difference is he never finds himself isolated, receiving the ball in dangerous positions the way Fred does. That's on the teammates around him and the coaching as much as the player himself.

Fred's strength is in covering ground, recovering the ball and moving the ball quickly in a high tempo system high up the pitch. He's one of the best in the league at that. We often play him in a deep sitting low tempo system with players who can't do one touch passing to save their lives, and we wonder why it goes wrong?

McTominay regularly gets on the ball less than any other midfielder we have.

You'll see i've said in the past McTominay is probably the one we most need to upgrade on in midfield. That or he needs to learn to get more involved. But, he works best with Fred and vice versa.

 

[Cassidy]

Kante is better at bring the ball forward through dribbling, but he is no better on the turn or in quick passing. The difference is he never finds himself isolated, receiving the ball in dangerous positions the way Fred does. That's on the teammates around him and the coaching as much as the player himself.

Fred's strength is in covering ground, recovering the ball and moving the ball quickly in a high tempo system high up the pitch. He's one of the best in the league at that. We often play him in a deep sitting low tempo system with players who can't do one touch passing to save their lives, and we wonder why it goes wrong?




You'll see i've said in the past McTominay is probably the one we most need to upgrade on in midfield. That or he needs to learn to get more involved. But, he works best with Fred and vice versa.

Kante finds himself isolated quite a bit.

 

[El Jefe]

I've thought for a while that he's like AWB in midfield. If you put him in CM, he'd do a lot of things well but also do many things horribly and that is Fred.

The problem is, no amount of workrate or ball winning can make up for his poor first touch and erratic passing.

There's no midfielder I've seen play for us that has passed the ball out of play as much Fred. He is a specialist at unforced errors so no surprise he cost us when Leicester actually looked to force the errors.

 

[El Jefe]

Easy now after a shit show from Fred and Kanté has returned to being flavour of the month only a week ago.

Try over an 18 month period. Not a chance Kanté has been better in that period.

I mean if you count when Kante was having injuries troubles sure.

Hindsight or not, your post was completely off the mark. They may be the same type of player but they are definitely not of the same level of quality.

I recall you making similar posts about KDB and Pogba and were wrong with that too.

 

[SuperiorXI]

Very strange player.
Looks crap most of the time then once in a while pulls out a performance, which makes him look world class.

He has never looked world class

 

[MUFC OK]

Rewatch that horror show in his first season v Brighton, and I don’t think he’s improved. This guy has to be sold in the summer, no way bear good enough.

 

[Rozay]

I mean if you count when Kante was having injuries troubles sure.

Hindsight or not, your post was completely off the mark. They may be the same type of player but they are definitely not of the same level of quality.

I recall you making similar posts about KDB and Pogba and were wrong with that too.

Wrong about neither. Kanté is no Xabi Alonso on the ball, and he is not another level of ball winner to Fred either. They’re as good as each other on the ball. Kanté has had plenty of criticism, his star is bright now and Fred has just had his worst game. Easy pickings, but they are same level.

As for PP and Kevin, can see why anyone would say Kevin is better and I won’t tell them they are mad. But they are similar quality to me, and have different functions in a football team too. This G+A generation obviously looks at things quite binary. And even then, their Goals to Game stats are pretty identical over their times in Manchester anyway.

As is the case with both comparisons, narrative always very different when a player wins titles.

 

[AgentSmith]

Wrong about neither. Kanté is no Xabi Alonso on the ball, and he is not another level of ball winner to Fred either. They’re as good as each other on the ball. Kanté has had plenty of criticism, his star is bright now and Fred has just had his worst game. Easy pickings, but they are same level.

As for PP and Kevin, can see why anyone would say Kevin is better and I won’t tell them they are mad. But they are similar quality to me, and have different functions in a football team too. This G+A generation obviously looks at things quite binary. And even then, their Goals to Game stats are pretty identical over their times in Manchester anyway.

As is the case with both comparisons, narrative always very different when a player wins titles.

You keep making these sweeping statements about stats being the same when they aren’t. You did it comparing Fred to Kante’s prime and you’ve just done it with Pogba and De Bruyne.

- Pogba has 73 goals and assists in 14,969 minutes at United. Giving him a goal or assist every 205 minutes.

- De Bruyne has 169 goals and assists in 19,182 minutes at City. Giving him a goal or assist every 113 minutes.

De Bruyne is better than Pogba. Kante is better than Fred. The fact that the other two have won trophies and individual player of the season awards just reinforce that fact, not cloud it. Nor does it discredit Pogba or Fred; Pogba is excellent and Fred can be great when used correctly.

 

[Rozay]

You keep making these sweeping statements about stats being the same when they aren’t. You did it comparing Fred to Kante’s prime and you’ve just done it with Pogba and De Bruyne.

- Pogba has 73 goals and assists in 14,969 minutes at United. Giving him a goal or assist every 205 minutes.

- De Bruyne has 169 goals and assists in 19,182 minutes at City. Giving him a goal or assist every 113 minutes.

De Bruyne is better than Pogba. Kante is better than Fred. The fact that the other two have won trophies and individual player of the season awards just reinforce that fact, not cloud it. Nor does it discredit Pogba or Fred; Pogba is excellent and Fred can be great when used correctly.

I mentioned goals, not assists. Thank you.

 

[AgentSmith]

I mentioned goals, not assists. Thank you.

De Bruyne at City - a goal every 300 minutes.

Pogba at United - a goal every 405 minutes.

 

[mancan92]

No one outside of united would say Fred is as good as Kante. No one.

 

[Rozay]

De Bruyne at City - a goal every 300 minutes.

Pogba at United - a goal every 405 minutes.

Well this is something that changes of course. When I looked at the figures last summer, the figures were almost identical.

Just looked on Wiki:

Pogba - 127 games/28 goals
Kevin - 176 games/42 goals

Obviously Kevin’s is better, but there isn’t that much in it.