Foreign secretary advice to LGBT fans.... Be respectful

[RoadTrip]

I think I get what you are saying, but I don't think you're understanding what I am.

In simple words I don't draw the line for immorality or illegality. For me Islam does. My personal opinion doesn't come into it for me.

But then why would you be engaging in discussions on these topics? You can’t possibly pass any opinion on them.

 

[bk1991]

The backing down from the European nations certainly reflects badly on them, only willing to take a stand for LGBTQ+ rights if there are absolutely no negatives consequences. I would imagine there will be some form of protest at the final group stage game if some of them will be going home regardless, will ring a bit hollow though.

Ultimately though it is FIFA and Qatar at fault here. Qatar for their retrograde view on who people love and FIFA for awarding the competition to them.

 

[Dan_F]

Again, willing to take a yellow for cheating in the game. Not willing to take a yellow to stand up for abused people. Is your hero worship so clouded your eyes that you can’t see the issue? Black Lives Matter as long as it’s ok. LGBT people can go feck themselves though, because starting a match with a yellow is just too much. Millionaires shitting themselves to take a stand because if a fecking game. And no, getting pushback on twitter from racist arseholes is not systemic bigotry. It’s not even fecking close. ”boo” like at a fecking pantomime? Oh yeah, scary stuff.

Harry Kane could have taken a rule book out on to the pitch and then throw at the ref saying “point to where it says wearing a rainbow arm band is a yellow card offence?“. And then every fecking player should have walked off if the yellow card was still produced.

Footballers, for whatever dumb reason, are seen as role models. But instead of the national team being those role models, Alex Scott stepped up and did it for them. Their money, their status, their ambition for a fecking game was more important to them. feck the lot them. feck fifa as well, but feck them right along side. Pathetic, self serving, pieces of shit.

Hero worship? I barely like the England team and certainly don’t care about Harry fecking Kane. Stop going on about Alex Scott please. I applaud what she did but it just isn’t the same thing.

I’m not even sure what your point is on BLM. Racism on twitter isn’t systemic bigotry, but racism in every day life is, which is what BLM is all about?

I’ll leave you to it and continue the conversation elsewhere, which is exactly what the armband was supposed to do. Raise awareness and open discussions about it.

 

[Roane]

But then why would you be engaging in discussions on these topics? You can’t possibly pass any opinion on them.

I think you've misunderstood the conversation. It happens if folk don't see the entirety and just come in at specific points.

I can't even remember how I joined this one. It then developed. It happens in conversation.

This particular case, as I understood it was to put my religion aside and give my opinion. My opinion is based on my religion and that is what I have and said

 

[The Boy]

Says it all really. We really should have stood up for this issue instead of bowing to the pressure.

What kind of value is it to deny people basic human rights?

What annoys me most about this is that universal human rights are suddenly being re labelled as western values.

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights was drawn up by the UN and all member countries took part. The representatives that encoded it were from different legal and cultural bckgrounds and included all the world's major religions. It is not some back of a fag packet document drawn up in London, Rome or Sydney, it is universal, it is the world's values.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

But I also believe that most of the countries that can host a WC, with the very high standards that it requires nowadays, are no angels at all. The country that lost to Qatar was the USA, hardly a flawless country. The country that organized it in 2018 was Russia, certainly not a nicer regime than Qatar.

The issue with Qatar is that the main problem, worker exploitation, was a direct necessity of them hosting the World Cup. The situation is quite different than from other countries, the level of involvement, the moral calculus, it is not the same.

 

[Gehrman]

I think I get what you are saying, but I don't think you're understanding what I am.

In simple words I don't draw the line for immorality or illegality. For me Islam does. My personal opinion doesn't come into it for me.

You're not capable of forming an opinion on something so basic?

 

[VorZakone]

You're not capable of forming an opinion on something so basic?

Bizarre, ain't it.

 

[Gehrman]

Bizarre, ain't it.

It's a fine way to avoid the question. "I'm brainwashed and rather not say I agree with my religion that homosexuality is immoral and should be punished rather brutally."

 

[The Boy]

I think I get what you are saying, but I don't think you're understanding what I am.

In simple words I don't draw the line for immorality or illegality. For me Islam does. My personal opinion doesn't come into it for me.

This is what I do not understand though.

If Islam spoke with one voice on all issues then this would make perfect sense. But it doesn't, like all major religions there are millions upon millions of Muslims with different ideas, different cultures and different interpretations of religious texts.

You have chosen a conservative interpretation, that's your right, I personally disagree, but that's neither here not there. But that interpretation is your choice and to label your it as the only understanding of Islam is basic misinformation.

EDIT: In other words it is entirely your own opinion of those texts that guides your choices.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

In simple words I don't draw the line for immorality or illegality. For me Islam does. My personal opinion doesn't come into it for me.

That's a yes on 'is homosexuality is immoral' by any reasonable standard.

 

[Moby]

You're not capable of forming an opinion on something so basic?

That's what indoctrination does.

 

[matherto]

I think I get what you are saying, but I don't think you're understanding what I am.

In simple words I don't draw the line for immorality or illegality. For me Islam does. My personal opinion doesn't come into it for me.

That's just laziness and passing the buck.

You're allowed to be an individual and still be a Muslim, you know that right?

 

[RoadTrip]

I think you've misunderstood the conversation. It happens if folk don't see the entirety and just come in at specific points.

I can't even remember how I joined this one. It then developed. It happens in conversation.

This particular case, as I understood it was to put my religion aside and give my opinion. My opinion is based on my religion and that is what I have and said

Ok but if you can’t have an opinion because of your religion, why would you even open this thread? Presumably you had to have posted at some point to be drawn into / engaged in a conversation? I’m not trying to be an ass, I’m actually genuinely interested why you’d bother entering a thread about a topic you simply cannot change your view on or pass a personal opinion on because it is driven by a religion?

 

[SilentWitness]

The words from Van Dijk pretty much confirm that football comes before anything else for the players. Sad but not surprising.

 

[The Boy]

Ok but if you can’t have an opinion because of your religion, why would you even open this thread? Presumably you had to have posted at some point to be drawn into / engaged in a conversation? I’m not trying to be an ass, I’m actually genuinely interested why you’d bother entering a thread about a topic you simply cannot change your view on or pass a personal opinion on because it is driven by a religion?

To condone Qatar's stance.

 

[Gehrman]

Ok but if you can’t have an opinion because of your religion, why would you even open this thread? Presumably you had to have posted at some point to be drawn into / engaged in a conversation? I’m not trying to be an ass, I’m actually genuinely interested why you’d bother entering a thread about a topic you simply cannot change your view on or pass a personal opinion on because it is driven by a religion?

Cause probably if his opinion contradicted the Islamic Canon then he would be afraid of incurring gods wrath.

 

[Member 105568]

The words from Van Dijk pretty much confirm that football comes before anything else for the players. Sad but not surprising.

Why's it "sad"? What difference does it make to you what Van Dijk or another footballer thinks of things outside of football? I'd be happier if England just turned up and played football. It would be nice to win 6-2 and be thinking about that rather than all this boring gesture nonsense to the side.

 

[Bole Top]

Is it really that unexpected, though?

Most of these campaigns serve the purpose of clout for them.

Taking the knee for BLM, rainbow armbands, MeToo movement.

of course it's not, very few are genuinely surprised. but they're also being expectedly called out now, which they entirely deserve. that's what happens when you're so vocal about certain cause but your support collapse at the first sign of any kind of consequence.

several teams refused to wear armbands and made their stance clear a while ago. they are now joined by every other nation who will also not wear them, but only couple of them were exposed as full of shit hypocrites. if they can accept praise, they should accept criticism as well. that's how it goes.

Qatar played this brilliantly it seems. people are enjoying games under their rules, players and managers behave just as they want it and other nations will face criticism after all those talks and big words because they backed down under the threats of yellow card. Qatar will remain the same as they've always been, but from now on, every strong support talk from players and managers will be met with doubt and ridicule because all of that have been tested and proven to be just empty words.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Why's it "sad"? What difference does it make to you what Van Dijk or another footballer thinks of things outside of football?

Because when you want social change, you need people to support it, and footballers are people. Not very complicated.

 

[SilentWitness]

Why's it "sad"? What difference does it make to you what Van Dijk or another footballer thinks of things outside of football? I'd be happier if England just turned up and played football. It would be nice to win 6-2 and be thinking about that rather than all this boring gesture nonsense to the side.

Because they aren't just footballers, they're people who are members of our society and I'd like to live in a society that supports their fellow humans in the ways they need and deserve to be supported.

 

[BD]

Why's it "sad"? What difference does it make to you what Van Dijk or another footballer thinks of things outside of football? I'd be happier if England just turned up and played football. It would be nice to win 6-2 and be thinking about that rather than all this boring gesture nonsense to the side.

Cause it'd be nice if they'd use their power and visibility to push for some good change? It's not an obligation of course - they could just show up and play football. But then don't act as though you care, only to drop all idea of support when there's a bit of pressure.

 

[dumbo]

These mealy mouthed feckless cnuts:

“I play in a position where a yellow card is not useful. I became a football player and I want to play these kind of tournaments.
“There are people who say we don’t have a backbone, but that’s not how it works,”
“We just want to play football. I would have loved to play with that band, but not at the expense of a yellow card.”

It’s out of our control as players. I’m sure the FA and Fifa will continue those discussions but most importantly today we focused on the game and got a great result.”

"I think every coach now deserves the right to be able to focus on the football and we understand there are a lot of issues that people want to want us to speak about,"
"We've done that for 12 months, but this is a World Cup. We won't refuse to speak and we won't refuse to answer any questions otherwise answer anything. But the predominant part of my energy has to be on preparing the team."
"Actually, I do understand FIFA's situation in that you can set a precedent and it's very difficult then, where do you draw the line? I think in an ideal world, that would have been a much clearer situation earlier."
"People know what we stand for, this group of players, we're taking the knee because it's something we feel we can make a difference with.
"There are some things that I'm not sure we're going to be able to make a difference with and therefore we should channel our energies in the right directions."

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

tbh I don't know what people expected here. There isn't a single player in the major football leagues that is out of the closet. There have been multiple cases of players refusing these type of gestures in their own country's leagues. They did not fold because they lack backbone, they folded because support for these measures isn't actually all that widespread among them, and many of them are homophobes.

 

[BD]

These mealy mouthed feckless cnuts:

I hadn't actually bothered to find quotes from them, but they're actually worse than I might've thought.

Southgate: "I do understand FIFA...where do you draw the line?". feck off you gobshite

 

[SilentWitness]

These mealy mouthed feckless cnuts:

Those Southgate ones are awful and show the weak fecker he is.

"People know what we stand for, this group of players, we're taking the knee because it's something we feel we can make a difference with.
"There are some things that I'm not sure we're going to be able to make a difference with and therefore we should channel our energies in the right directions."

He comes across awfully with these lines. Really really poor.

 

[Lecland07]

When a country is changed by an external force it is usually through military aggression e.g. The British Empire forced slavery to be ended in a lot of countries through the use of the Royal Navy, and it was not by giving their captain's armbands. Other than that, the change always has to be made and instigated internally.

Some random foreigners slapping on an armband isn't going to make a single bit of difference, so I don't get why people are getting so worked up about it the decision they have made.

In the end, I think the focus is in the wrong area. The decision to hold a world cup has no direct impact on lgbt, but it did directly contribute to the deaths and mistreatment of migrant workers. That is where the focus should really be as that is something football could have done something about.

 

[SilentWitness]

When a country is changed by an external force it is usually through military aggression e.g. The British Empire forced slavery to be ended in a lot of countries through the use of the Royal Navy, and it was not by giving their captain's armbands. Other than that, the change always has to be made and instigated internally.

Some random foreigners slapping on an armband isn't going to make a single bit of difference, so I don't get why people are getting so worked up about it.

You seem to think that them doing this is to try and change the opinion of people in Qatar? It's bigger than that.

 

[Abizzz]

When a country is changed by an external force it is usually through military aggression e.g. The British Empire forced slavery to be ended in a lot of countries through the use of the Royal Navy, and it was not by giving their captain's armbands. Other than that, the change always has to be made and instigated internally.

Some random foreigners slapping on an armband isn't going to make a single bit of difference, so I don't get why people are getting so worked up about it the decision they have made.

In the end, I think the focus is in the wrong area. The decision to hold a world cup has no direct impact on lgbt, but it did directly contribute to the deaths and mistreatment of migrant workers. That is where the focus should really be as that is something football could have done something about.

If that is true it kills every argument for having a WC in Qatar at all.

 

[Roane]

This is what I do not understand though.

If Islam spoke with one voice on all issues then this would make perfect sense. But it doesn't, like all major religions there are millions upon millions of Muslims with different ideas, different cultures and different interpretations of religious texts.

You have chosen a conservative interpretation, that's your right, I personally disagree, but that's neither here not there. But that interpretation is your choice and to label your it as the only understanding of Islam is basic misinformation.

EDIT: In other words it is entirely your own opinion of those texts that guides your choices.

That's just laziness and passing the buck.

You're allowed to be an individual and still be a Muslim, you know that right?

Respond to these together as I think it's appropriate.

Muslim is not just a label Islamically. It's two words/syllables mu and Islam.

In simple terms it's a verb and means to do Islam. There is no interpretation or culture or ideas. It is just that.

I claim to be a Muslim because I "do Islam". I don't care what someone interprets or what someone's culture or what someone's idea says or comes up with. I study and discuss and argue with Muslim people/scholars/imams all the time in my pursuit for what Islam is and should be. Sometimes I accept what they have said based on the evidences they have provided. Sometimes I leave them to their devices.

Ultimately it is on me or "my choice" based on what I know. I don't apologise for that

 

[tomaldinho1]

These mealy mouthed feckless cnuts:

Hand on heart did we expect anything else? Characters in football are about as meek as they come now, scared of doing anything remotely ‘different’.

There’s a lot of people will never look past Maradona as the goat because he was actually a human being, he’d not been brought up in luxury and as mental as he was he was just like all of us would be if we were crazily talented and then had the world at our feet.

Those Southgate ones are awful and show the weak fecker he is.

"People know what we stand for, this group of players, we're taking the knee because it's something we feel we can make a difference with.
"There are some things that I'm not sure we're going to be able to make a difference with and therefore we should channel our energies in the right directions."

He comes across awfully with these lines. Really really poor.

Yeah surely if he’s going to not say anything positive he can just say ‘no comment, obviously we are not in agreement but I can’t say any more’ or something. It’s not a good look but it’s better than the waffle he’s coming out with.

 

[The Boy]

Ultimately it is on me or "my choice" based on what I know. I don't apologise for that

That's fine and I'm glad you admit that not all Muslims agree with you.

I find it interesting to finally hear that you choose to believe in something that oppresses approximately 10% of the world's population for what they are rather than choices they have made.

I also think it is really important for everyone here and elsewhere to understand that not all Muslims believe this and Islam is not an inherently homophobic religion. Like Christianity and other major religions, some sadly choose to believe that homosexuality is a sin but many others do not and instead believe that inclusivity, justice and love for all humanity are far far more important.

 

[matherto]

Respond to these together as I think it's appropriate.

Muslim is not just a label Islamically. It's two words/syllables mu and Islam.

In simple terms it's a verb and means to do Islam. There is no interpretation or culture or ideas. It is just that.

I claim to be a Muslim because I "do Islam". I don't care what someone interprets or what someone's culture or what someone's idea says or comes up with. I study and discuss and argue with Muslim people/scholars/imams all the time in my pursuit for what Islam is and should be. Sometimes I accept what they have said based on the evidences they have provided. Sometimes I leave them to their devices.

Ultimately it is on me or "my choice" based on what I know. I don't apologise for that

So you're for all the nasty stuff in there too?

 

[Manncunian]

What annoys me most about this is that universal human rights are suddenly being re labelled as western values.

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights was drawn up by the UN and all member countries took part. The representatives that encoded it were from different legal and cultural bckgrounds and included all the world's major religions. It is not some back of a fag packet document drawn up in London, Rome or Sydney, it is universal, it is the world's values.

This in spades.

And it’s working somewhat. Even some of those in the West are now convinced basic human rights are purely Western values and simply part of our culture, hence shouldn’t be part of every nation’s culture.

Labelling basic human rights as “values” or “cultural issues” enables it to become a battle between the West and the rest. This is just so wrong. Every human on the planet deserves access to basic human rights, and if any culture/belief/religion/politics says otherwise, it deserves absolutely NO respect from anyone. It should be called out and criticised until we are blue in the face.

However, it does feel very much like fighting a losing battle.

 

[Mr Pigeon]

Says it all really. We really should have stood up for this issue instead of bowing to the pressure.

What kind of value is it to deny people basic human rights?

This is why FIFA’s approved No Discrimination armband as a replacement for OneLove is a load of rubbish. It’s doesn’t mean No Discrimination to All, because the narrative from FIFA and Qatar this entire time has been “Don’t discriminate against our way of life that allows us to persecute the LGBT community.“

FIFA have really fecked up. And any time they try to spout shit about how inclusive they are from now on these images and videos will be thrown back at them.

 

[hasanejaz88]

They don't care. This particular 'sportswashing' exercise is not for us liberal European types. The rest of the world will love Qatar for this.

Are you bring sarcastic? You 'liberal European types' have three of your biggest clubs owned by these countries.

Also, I hope you see this same energy in four more years when the world cup takes place in the US. Or is protesting against illegal invasions, providing weapons known to kill innocent civilians being occupied and partaking in human rights abuses in prisons just for us 'liberal brown people' type?

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Or is protesting against illegal invasions, providing weapons known to kill innocent civilians being occupied and partaking in human rights abuses in prisons just for us 'liberal brown people' type?

This argument has been refuted ten thousand times already.

 

[Mr Pigeon]

Those Southgate ones are awful and show the weak fecker he is.

"People know what we stand for, this group of players, we're taking the knee because it's something we feel we can make a difference with.
"There are some things that I'm not sure we're going to be able to make a difference with and therefore we should channel our energies in the right directions."

He comes across awfully with these lines. Really really poor.

Also “we’re taking a knee because we know it can make a difference”. I’m a pale as feck white fecker with a white fecker upbringing so obviously it’ll be different for me but that knee yesterday was weak, rushed and about three seconds long, and stood for feck all after the events leading up to it that day. It looked like a theatre piece or superstition that the England team now just do before a match. You can bet your arse that if FIFA turned around and promised the same yellow card punishment for kneeling then they wouldn’t do that either. What’s the point of a symbol if you can drop it at the first sight of inconvience.

 

[hasanejaz88]

This argument has been refuted ten thousand times already.

How so it's been refuted? Summarize it if needed.

 

[Abizzz]

Also, I hope you see this same energy in four more years when the world cup takes place in the US. Or is protesting against illegal invasions, providing weapons known to kill innocent civilians being occupied and partaking in human rights abuses in prisons just for us 'liberal brown people' type?

I started a thread about the protests following the killing of George Floyd. It had hundreds of pages and thousands of replies.


Only a few meager morons went into that asking "ye but what about the police in the middle east".