Foreign secretary advice to LGBT fans.... Be respectful

[stevoc]

If that is true it kills every argument for having a WC in Qatar at all.

I mean I know prompting a change of attitude in Qatar been trotted out as a reason for having the WC in Qatar, but I'm not sure anyone ever really believed it would change anything. As we can see so far it looks like they're just doubling down on their backward views as opposed to softening them.

 

[Abizzz]

I mean I know prompting a change of attitude in Qatar been trotted out as a reason for having the WC in Qatar, but I'm not sure anyone ever really believed it would change anything. As we can see so far it looks like they're just doubling down on their backward views as opposed to softening them.

It seems the doubters were correct all along, yes. Good enough reason for me to never have another one in a place like Qatar again.

I'd like a system where say the winner of the 2026 WC gets to host the 2030 one and so on. Would put an end to the corruption and make sure wherever it ends up people actually care enough about the game to show up.

 

[moses]

Are you bring sarcastic? You 'liberal European types' have three of your biggest clubs owned by these countries.

Also, I hope you see this same energy in four more years when the world cup takes place in the US. Or is protesting against illegal invasions, providing weapons known to kill innocent civilians being occupied and partaking in human rights abuses in prisons just for us 'liberal brown people' type?

Yeah, just keeping presuming you actually know who you are talking with. Presume you know what else I object to or support based on where I'm from.

I was commenting on the different uses of sport in politics and was using 'liberal European types' dismissively, paraphrasing the accusation leveled at the protests from the off.

There was an assumption the world cup was to ingratiate Qatar to the West by the west, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Look at the context and don't be so eager to rush to being offended. It's getting tedious and ironically, it's slightly offensive. You're basically accusing me of being a racist throughout this whole conversation.

 

[stevoc]

It seems the doubters were correct all along, yes. Good enough reason for me to never have another one in a place like Qatar again.

I'd like a system where say the winner of the 2026 WC gets to host the 2030 one and so on. Would put an end to the corruption and make sure wherever it ends up people actually care enough about the game to show up.

We're only a few days in and Qatar have made this event more about imposing their ''values'' than the football and shown themselves up on the world stage, who knows what else we're in store for over the next 3-4 weeks. And while mass bribery is always a possibility with FIFA I don't see another middle eastern regime getting to host a World Cup for a very long time after this absolute farce.

 

[Moby]

It would be nice to win 6-2 and be thinking about that rather than all this boring gesture nonsense to the side.

Must be easy for you to say given you're likely not impacted by it and seemingly have zero empathy for those who are either.

 

[moses]

I started a thread about the protests following the killing of George Floyd. It had hundreds of pages and thousands of replies.


Only a few meager morons went into that asking "ye but what about the police in the middle east".

Yep, but sadly it does happen though. Last year there were protests about the rape culture in US colleges and some utter scumbag right wing racist fecks did a bit of what about rape culture in x, y or z counties, and the rightfully got shut down for being obvious feckers with no empathy for the victims being supported. It's vile and same vile whataboutery it's all over these threads.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

How so it's been refuted? Summarize it if needed.

1. There is a "Current Events" forum on Redcafe. People there discuss "Current Events." If you go there, you will find threads about "illegal invasions", "human rights abuses", "gun violence", "restricted abortion rights", "transphobia", things of that nature. The general opinion you will find is that Redcafe posters are broadly against all those things. They do what they can within their own country to prevent those things from happening. You are levelling a charge of hypocrisy at an imaginary person.

2. This thread is about LGBT stuff, not Qatar WC as a whole. But the fundamental problem with Qatar WC is that the bulk of the harm done (the exploitation of labor) is a direct result of hosting the WC there; they did not have the infrastructure to host this project, the manpower, nor the legal structures and culture to prevent worker abuse; the inevitable outcome is excess human suffering in the service of a World Cup. Therefore our relationship to this harm, by 'consuming' this World Cup or condoning it, is very direct. This is not the case for a World Cup hosted in the U.S, as they already have the infrastructure to host a World Cup. If you take any kind of utilitarian or harm-reduction approach to this issue (and most people do to some extent), then a U.S. WC is almost certainly much better than a Qatar WC.

 

[moses]

1. There is a "Current Events" forum on Redcafe. People there discuss "Current Events." If you go there, you will find threads about "illegal invasions", "human rights abuses", "gun violence", "restricted abortion rights", "transphobia", things of that nature. The general opinion you will find is that Redcafe posters are broadly against all those things. They do what they can within their own country to prevent those things from happening. You are levelling a charge of hypocrisy at an imaginary person.

2. This thread is about LGBT stuff, not Qatar WC as a whole. But the fundamental problem with Qatar WC is that the bulk of the harm done (the exploitation of labor) is a direct result of hosting the WC there; they did not have the infrastructure to host this project, the manpower, nor the legal structures and culture to prevent worker abuse; the inevitable outcome is excess human suffering in the service of a World Cup. Therefore our relationship to this harm, by 'consuming' this World Cup or condoning it, is very direct. This is not the case for a World Cup hosted in the U.S, as they already have the infrastructure to host a World Cup. If you take any kind of utilitarian or harm-reduction approach to this issue (and most people do to some extent), then a U.S. WC is almost certainly much better than a Qatar WC.

Yep, and while that person most likely does exist, one cannot attack all of us on that probability.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

This kind of complaint about the West is also very odd when it's happening in a forum that revolves around a Western football team. Imagine going to an Al Sadd SC forum to complain about the "arab mind" or some such nonsense.

 

[maniak]

Honest question, have you guys who wanted Kane etc to take the yellow actually ever done something like that in your field of work?

Comparing random people who probably can't risk being fired to a multi millionaire?

 

[The Corinthian]

It’s a belief system that people CHOOSE to believe.




There are homosexual ‘conversion’ camps a short drive from where games are taking place.

Gay people are beaten in the streets and arrested for who they are. Punishable by death.

They are viewed as 2nd class citizens - LESS human… sound familiar?

There absolutely are similarities between Nazi Germany’s treatment of Jewish people and Qatar’s treatment of gays. It’s a totally valid comparison.

@Pintu has already answered this very well and I’ll just add - if we view every country in the prism of elements being similar to Nazi Germany, then guess what…literally every country can be Nazi Germany. It’s a lazy comparison to make and is just sensationalist. It doesn’t add any nuance or depth to a discussion.

Godwin's law?

That’s the one! Thanks.

 

[sullydnl]

The main reason not to compare a situation to Nazi Germany is to avoid the reflex complaints about comparing things to Nazi Germany. Pick any of the countless other repressive regimes throughout history instead to make the same point.

 

[stevoc]

1. There is a "Current Events" forum on Redcafe. People there discuss "Current Events." If you go there, you will find threads about "illegal invasions", "human rights abuses", "gun violence", "restricted abortion rights", "transphobia", things of that nature. The general opinion you will find is that Redcafe posters are broadly against all those things. They do what they can within their own country to prevent those things from happening. You are levelling a charge of hypocrisy at an imaginary person.

2. This thread is about LGBT stuff, not Qatar WC as a whole. But the fundamental problem with Qatar WC is that the bulk of the harm done (the exploitation of labor) is a direct result of hosting the WC there; they did not have the infrastructure to host this project, the manpower, nor the legal structures and culture to prevent worker abuse; the inevitable outcome is excess human suffering in the service of a World Cup. Therefore our relationship to this harm, by 'consuming' this World Cup or condoning it, is very direct. This is not the case for a World Cup hosted in the U.S, as they already have the infrastructure to host a World Cup. If you take any kind of utilitarian or harm-reduction approach to this issue (and most people do to some extent), then a U.S. WC is almost certainly much better than a Qatar WC.

It's sad that this has to be explained to people.

 

[RedStarUnited]

Comparing random people who probably can't risk being fired to a multi millionaire?

Its the national team....its nothing to do with money.

 

[Marwood]

Respond to these together as I think it's appropriate.

Muslim is not just a label Islamically. It's two words/syllables mu and Islam.

In simple terms it's a verb and means to do Islam. There is no interpretation or culture or ideas. It is just that.

I claim to be a Muslim because I "do Islam". I don't care what someone interprets or what someone's culture or what someone's idea says or comes up with. I study and discuss and argue with Muslim people/scholars/imams all the time in my pursuit for what Islam is and should be. Sometimes I accept what they have said based on the evidences they have provided. Sometimes I leave them to their devices.

Ultimately it is on me or "my choice" based on what I know. I don't apologise for that

The problem is if you can't bring yourself to say "homosexuality is morally ok", it creates a certain impression. Can you see what others might think about your reluctance to clear up where you stand?

 

[maniak]

Its the national team....its nothing to do with money.

Then why did you compare it to people's jobs?

 

[maniak]

The problem is if you can't bring yourself to say "homosexuality is morally ok", it creates a certain impression. Can you see what others might think about your reluctance to clear up where you stand?

I think it's pretty clear where he stands.

 

[ShinjiNinja26]

Why are they even bothering to ask FIFA’s and UEFA’s permission to do these things when they already know what the answer will be. Just fecking do it and feck the consequences if it’s what you really believe. Otherwise it just looks like a petty half hearted virtue signalling exercise.

 

[Marwood]

That's fine and I'm glad you admit that not all Muslims agree with you.

I find it interesting to finally hear that you choose to believe in something that oppresses approximately 10% of the world's population for what they are rather than choices they have made.

I also think it is really important for everyone here and elsewhere to understand that not all Muslims believe this and Islam is not an inherently homophobic religion. Like Christianity and other major religions, some sadly choose to believe that homosexuality is a sin but many others do not and instead believe that inclusivity, justice and love for all humanity are far far more important.

There is extensive polling on this.

It's a really difficult conversation to have but the figures on how muslims view homosexuality, across the globe, are pretty horrific.

The figures are pretty much ignored or blocked out because of how bad they are.

Like I say, not a nice conversation, I don’t want to believe the figures myself, but if you want to change it, it has to be fully accepted that there's a problem.

I've no doubt the figures would be similar if orthodox jew and evangelical groups were polled.

The link between faith and repressive views on homosexuality need to be examined and discussed openly for their to be progress.

 

[Doracle]

of course it's not, very few are genuinely surprised. but they're also being expectedly called out now, which they entirely deserve. that's what happens when you're so vocal about certain cause but your support collapse at the first sign of any kind of consequence.

several teams refused to wear armbands and made their stance clear a while ago. they are now joined by every other nation who will also not wear them, but only couple of them were exposed as full of shit hypocrites. if they can accept praise, they should accept criticism as well. that's how it goes.

Qatar played this brilliantly it seems. people are enjoying games under their rules, players and managers behave just as they want it and other nations will face criticism after all those talks and big words because they backed down under the threats of yellow card. Qatar will remain the same as they've always been, but from now on, every strong support talk from players and managers will be met with doubt and ridicule because all of that have been tested and proven to be just empty words.

How has Qatar played this brilliantly? They’ve been the subject of a large volume of highly critical press arising from yesterday’s events. Had the teams just been allowed to wear the rainbow armbands, the level of exposure would have been far lower and it would have been the nice but relatively pointless gesture it was intended to be.

 

[Doracle]

This is why FIFA’s approved No Discrimination armband as a replacement for OneLove is a load of rubbish. It’s doesn’t mean No Discrimination to All, because the narrative from FIFA and Qatar this entire time has been “Don’t discriminate against our way of life that allows us to persecute the LGBT community.“

FIFA have really fecked up. And any time they try to spout shit about how inclusive they are from now on these images and videos will be thrown back at them.

It’s the equivalent of “all lives matter”. Qatar can also convince themselves that they aren’t discriminating against LGBT because all they are doing is punishing acts that they view as immoral and illegal.

 

[Gehrman]

So you're for all the nasty stuff in there too?

Or just evade and claim the nasty stuff is made up. Well made up by non Muslims or ex Muslims.

 

[Ajr]

It’s the equivalent of “all lives matter”. Qatar can also convince themselves that they aren’t discriminating against LGBT because all they are doing is punishing acts that they view as immoral and illegal.

Tolerance paradox

 

[Member 105568]

Because they aren't just footballers, they're people who are members of our society and I'd like to live in a society that supports their fellow humans in the ways they need and deserve to be supported.

Do you live in Qatar? Let’s imagine VDV had taken the yellow card and worn the armband. What difference would it make? I wouldn’t get my hopes up that an armband overcomes thousands of years of Qatar’s backwards religion and the culture around it. It’s just empty, vain bollocks whether they “take a yellow” or not.

 

[SilentWitness]

Do you live in Qatar? Let’s imagine VDV had taken the yellow card and worn the armband. What difference would it make? I wouldn’t get my hopes up that an armband overcomes thousands of years of Qatar’s backwards religion and the culture around it. It’s just empty, vain bollocks whether they “take a yellow” or not.

Why do I need to live in Qatar? You realise that despite countries in the world legalising homosexuality and gay marriage, homophobia still exists and is a societal issue across the world? This isn't just about Qatar.

 

[sullydnl]

How has Qatar played this brilliantly? They’ve been the subject of a large volume of highly critical press arising from yesterday’s events. Had the teams just been allowed to wear the rainbow armbands, the level of exposure would have been far lower and it would have been the nice but relatively pointless gesture it was intended to be.

Depends on what they want from the tournament maybe?

If the goal is to present a benign face to the sort of countries who bridle at anti-LGBT measures, all that criticism is a problem. But if the goal is to project power within their own region then the fact that they're successfully bullying their way to a WC on their own terms to the dismay of pro-LGBT critics they disdain is possibly a plus.

 

[dumbo]

Do you live in Qatar? Let’s imagine VDV had taken the yellow card and worn the armband. What difference would it make? I wouldn’t get my hopes up that an armband overcomes thousands of years of Qatar’s backwards religion and the culture around it. It’s just empty, vain bollocks whether they “take a yellow” or not.

It would show LGBT football fans watching that there are players willing to stick there neck out there for their principles and risk disciplinary action to stand with them. It would show people that Fifa's bullying threats are less important than respect and inclusiveness. It would maybe give Qatar's LGBTQ communities hope that change is possible even if the present looks bleak. It would possibly bring greater awareness to the issue. It would show Fifa that players have power and that they should be wary because they are looked at in a more favourable way than the grubby administrators are. It would show the fans that players are not cowards and stooges who value football above human dignity.

I dunno, nothing I guess.

 

[Doracle]

Depends on what they want from the tournament maybe?

If the goal is to present a benign face to the sort of countries who bridle at anti-LGBT measures, all that criticism is a problem. But if the goal is to project power within their own region then the fact that they're successfully bullying their way to a WC on their own terms to the dismay of pro-LGBT critics they disdain is possibly a plus.

Perhaps. My assumption was that it was to raise prestige globally, which is clearly not helped by all the coverage of Qatar being a backwards country with outdated laws around basic human rights. I doubt anyone in the region is that impressed by their bullying of fifa - I suspect everyone already knows that throwing a few quid their way can generally get favourable outcomes…

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

The region put Qatar under a blockade in 2017, long after the WC had been awarded. Projecting "power" over trivial things is considerably less important than using actual power in actual conflicts.

 

[Member 105568]

Why do I need to live in Qatar? You realise that despite countries in the world legalising homosexuality and gay marriage, homophobia still exists and is a societal issue across the world? This isn't just about Qatar.

Yes, I realize that. Just like I realise there’s all sorts of other bad stuff going on anywhere in the world at any time. I could decide one day that Luke Shaw’s opinion on Monsanto or American gun laws is really, really important. But what would be the point?

I just don’t see footballers as having much (any) importance in solving it. I don’t see the point in feeling “let down” or “betrayed” when they feck it up. Not quoting your words, but it’s generally what’s going round.

People putting so much store in what footballers think and do outside of football just seems a bit mental to me. Most of their “views” are just following someone else, taken from their PR, or just a sense of what they should say. No wonder that when it comes to the crunch they put football first. That’s not good, but as I said, why hang so much on them in the first place?

 

[Gehrman]

While I do support footballers trying to make moral or political statements for me it's still like hollywood celebrities thinking they are the beacon of humanity at the Oscars. Its unsurprising they back down the moment their career could be even slightly hurt. Fair fecks to the players of Iran and their supporters though.

 

[moses]

England and the other Western countries, with their behaviour here, have screamed:

"WE HAVE VALUES! WE HAVE GREAT VALUES! AND WE STAND BY OUR VALUES ... but only if there are zero negative consequences for us."

Simple, isn't it?

Yep, spinless fecks, but that doesn't mitigate the situation in Qatar. It's still shite.

 

[moses]

While I do support footballers trying to make moral or political statements for me it's still like hollywood celebrities thinking they are the beacon of humanity at the Oscars. Its unsurprising they back down the moment their career could be even slightly hurt. Fair fecks to the players of Iran and their supporters though.

That's only true if they never get yellow cards or if a yellow card actually impacted a career. They risk it to celebrate a goal and argue over a throw in, but won't risk it for human rights. On a wider level they ,transgress hugely and still get taken back by clubs. They're spineless pricks.

 

[moses]

Yes, I realize that. Just like I realise there’s all sorts of other bad stuff going on anywhere in the world at any time. I could decide one day that Luke Shaw’s opinion on Monsanto or American gun laws is really, really important. But what would be the point?

I just don’t see footballers as having much (any) importance in solving it. I don’t see the point in feeling “let down” or “betrayed” when they feck it up. Not quoting your words, but it’s generally what’s going round.

People putting so much store in what footballers think and do outside of football just seems a bit mental to me. Most of their “views” are just following someone else, taken from their PR, or just a sense of what they should say. No wonder that when it comes to the crunch they put football first. That’s not good, but as I said, why hang so much on them in the first place?

If Monsanto sponsored United and Luke Shaw make a huge deal of it, then it would be relevant and have impact and highlight who they were to a wider audience. Context is huge. Qatar hasn't randomly been singled out.

 

[Gehrman]

That's only true if they never get yellow cards or if a yellow card actually impacted a career. They risk it to celebrate a goal and argue over a throw in, but won't risk it for human rights. On a wider level they ,transgress hugely and still get taken back clubs. They're spineless pricks.

Yeah they are like Hollywood celebrities. Agree that not even risking a yellow is spineless. But presumably they would get a yellow each game if they wore the armband correct?

 

[moses]

When a country is changed by an external force it is usually through military aggression e.g. The British Empire forced slavery to be ended in a lot of countries through the use of the Royal Navy, and it was not by giving their captain's armbands. Other than that, the change always has to be made and instigated internally.

Some random foreigners slapping on an armband isn't going to make a single bit of difference, so I don't get why people are getting so worked up about it the decision they have made.

In the end, I think the focus is in the wrong area. The decision to hold a world cup has no direct impact on lgbt, but it did directly contribute to the deaths and mistreatment of migrant workers. That is where the focus should really be as that is something football could have done something about.

What message did their capitulation give to the LGBT people in Britain? Or all the gay footballers we keep waiting to come out? This has been a huge setback to the LGBT communities everywhere.

 

[SilentWitness]

Yes, I realize that. Just like I realise there’s all sorts of other bad stuff going on anywhere in the world at any time. I could decide one day that Luke Shaw’s opinion on Monsanto or American gun laws is really, really important. But what would be the point?

I just don’t see footballers as having much (any) importance in solving it. I don’t see the point in feeling “let down” or “betrayed” when they feck it up. Not quoting your words, but it’s generally what’s going round.

People putting so much store in what footballers think and do outside of football just seems a bit mental to me. Most of their “views” are just following someone else, taken from their PR, or just a sense of what they should say. No wonder that when it comes to the crunch they put football first. That’s not good, but as I said, why hang so much on them in the first place?

Because they are members of our society as much as they are footballers, because they have colleagues and fans who provide them with the means to be footballers who are part of the LGBTQ+ community, because they stated how much they cared about the issue and how much they support it. They have put themselves in a position to be criticised. The point is they are in a position which is seen worldwide. While we can do our bit in our small communities and circles to make a difference, it is obviously much bigger when someone with a huge platform to do so like a footballer conveys the message. They don't need to solve anything, that's not why people are pissed off. People are pissed off because they did not back up their statements of support. They crumbled the second that they'd be inconvenienced they crumbled. People who are gay or part of the LGBTQ+ community are more than inconvenienced every single fecking day of their lives just because they have the audacity to say "I am gay". It is not a case of hanging onto what footballers say or do. It's a case of human beings saying they support a cause but showing that their support is nothing more than a token for them to look good. That's what is sad. That they care more about themselves, about football, about them looking good when it suits them, instead of being people that actually fecking care.

 

[moses]

Yeah they are like Hollywood celebrities. Agree that not even risking a yellow is spineless. But presumably they would get a yellow each game if they wore the armband correct?

Worth finding out. Even one image of Van Dijk or Kane staring at a ref getting a yellow card on behalf of the worlds LGBT community would be huge. It would be amazing, huge reward for basically no risk.

 

[Kaush949]

I see 'Islamophobe' thrown around a lot.

I fundamentally wonder. Why is islamophobia wrong? Or is it a misnomer?

We should be against any discrimination towards arab-culture. That is racism.

But, islamophobia, christianophobia ( both religion and that self-centered c*nt), hinduphobia are all ok in my books as long as they take aim at the shitty and backwards aspects of those religions.

I love the arabic culture and I am also indifferent towards the hijab - because a person is free to wear as they choose. But, I also think both Islam and Christianity are bunch of snake oil. So, is every aethiest an islamophobia?

 

[GreenFieldsGoldenBarley]

I think you've misunderstood the conversation. It happens if folk don't see the entirety and just come in at specific points.

I can't even remember how I joined this one. It then developed. It happens in conversation.

This particular case, as I understood it was to put my religion aside and give my opinion. My opinion is based on my religion and that is what I have and said

An opinion based on religion is still an opinion. Some Muslim people find the resource within their religion to accept gay people. It seems like you are using your religion as an excuse for the fact you do not.