He's an attacking midfielder, just like Iniesta is. Their roles would actually be pretty similar, I reckon, based on how they played - both covering a decent amount of turf, both carrying the ball into dangerous areas, both venturing wide when the opportunity arises, both getting into the box when THAT opportunity comes along, etc. The difference being that Maradona is better than Iniesta in every single aspect of the game, barring the ability to adhere to the Pep formula. I wouldn't put too much emphasis on the latter here, though.
FINAL - Skizzo VS Cal - All time 3 yr peak - Auction Draft
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He's an attacking midfielder, just like Iniesta is. Their roles would actually be pretty similar, I reckon, based on how they played - both covering a decent amount of turf, both carrying the ball into dangerous areas, both venturing wide when the opportunity arises, both getting into the box when THAT opportunity comes along, etc. The difference being that Maradona is better than Iniesta in every single aspect of the game, barring the ability to adhere to the Pep formula. I wouldn't put too much emphasis on the latter here, though.
Nah, maradona is/was a trequartista who traditionally played with 3 behind him. Iniesta is part of the 3 that'd play behind a maradona.
I still prefer Platini over Maradona in that role.
Semantics. They'd both occupy much the same space in much the same role. Look at where Iniesta actually - usually - excels: Sort of wide-ish, to the left. That's where Maradona operated too. Only Maradona ventured right as well, being much more of a director than Iniesta ever was.
Makelele isn't even a top 5 DM let alone the best ever and would not come close to Maradona unfortunately.
Shocked at this comment as it's frequently shown that Diego has the work load and more to play this position easily. He puts a shift in and I couldn't think of anybody more dangerous collecting and carrying the ball from deep, which he obviously did regularly.
I can't think of a formation in which I'd want Iniesta part of a 3, then Maradona ahead of him. Like said above, they'd operate in similar areas, only one would be to a much higher level.
Question though, you've seen our defence and midfield...If you think Schweinsteiger joining the attack unmarked suddenly overwhelms us...what happens when someone inevitably loses the ball and now Maradona is completely alone running at a 2 man defence who are trying to keep tabs on Van Basten and Eusebio?
It's simplified to an extreme, but if we are going the route of being outnumbered somewhere (which I wouldn't agree with) at least we have 7 people behind the ball...All solid defensively in the GOAT or top tier. Flip it around and you have 3 on 2 on a counter attack. What sounds more dangerous?
If I had to compose a team with Maradona in it, not knowing anything about tactics or specifics, this is where I'd stick him - as a sort of default position for him:
Offensive midfielder in a free orchestrator role. That would be his designation.
If you look at how he played for Argentina (in a 3-5-2 of sorts) and for Naples, that is the very role he occupied too. The difference here, compared in particular to the legendary '86 formation, is that he has two "strikers" designated as being, well, more offensive as per the formula than him - but only one of those is a pure striker. Eusebio is not - he is very comfortable playing in a withdrawn role.
The wingback formula certainly suits the historical Maradona to a T.
Offensive midfielder in a free orchestrator role. That would be his designation.
If you look at how he played for Argentina (in a 3-5-2 of sorts) and for Naples, that is the very role he occupied too. The difference here, compared in particular to the legendary '86 formation, is that he has two "strikers" designated as being, well, more offensive as per the formula than him - but only one of those is a pure striker. Eusebio is not - he is very comfortable playing in a withdrawn role.
The wingback formula certainly suits the historical Maradona to a T.
You can't expect Maradona to defend in a midfield 3, holding his position to complete the midfield line and then still expect him to be the one to carry the offensive load and score and create.
He put a shift in like how a attacker would put a shift in, working hard to pressure around his area but not with any positional intelligence. They will have the ball so their midfield 3 would need to be defended by a midfield 3 that's going to cause a distraction with intelligent defending, that's not what maradona could do.
Say you ask him to play a more disciplined Iniestaesque role then who's hurting their defence? Expecting him to consistently get the ball from deep, drive forward and create for the other two while holding his position in midfield is a bit much, not even he'd do that as that'd mean he'd be fulfilling 2 roles in the same match.
You need Maradona with the 'hole' as his primary role, and only dropping deep when the team is struggling to get him on the ball, something he was an expert at. I think if you add another midfielder in there, have maradona as the deepest of the offensive 3 then you'd easily win the match as in transition your attackers would make a mockery of any side imaginable.
In the context of the ever inane numbers game, this is what I see:
Maradona won't defend in a midfield three? Alright, let's say he won't.
What does the other team offer?
Iniesta + Xavi + Schweinsteiger.
Versus:
Maradona + Van Hanegem + Rijkaard.
Iniesta offers more than Maradona defensively - fair enough.
Van Hanegem clearly offers more than Xavi.
Rijkaard clearly offers more than Schweinsteiger.
Where's the advantage?
And in a less inane comparison, Schweinsteiger actually functions, de facto, as a shield for a back four comprised of two brilliant and two - at this level - clearly sub-par defenders. Van H. and Rijkaard shield a trio of top class defenders PLUS a pair of wing backs who are both better defensively than Carlos and Alves.
Mathematically, so to speak, there's no question as to who emerges on top.
Maradona won't defend in a midfield three? Alright, let's say he won't.
What does the other team offer?
Iniesta + Xavi + Schweinsteiger.
Versus:
Maradona + Van Hanegem + Rijkaard.
Iniesta offers more than Maradona defensively - fair enough.
Van Hanegem clearly offers more than Xavi.
Rijkaard clearly offers more than Schweinsteiger.
Where's the advantage?
And in a less inane comparison, Schweinsteiger actually functions, de facto, as a shield for a back four comprised of two brilliant and two - at this level - clearly sub-par defenders. Van H. and Rijkaard shield a trio of top class defenders PLUS a pair of wing backs who are both better defensively than Carlos and Alves.
Mathematically, so to speak, there's no question as to who emerges on top.
Maradona often dropped deep to pick up the ball. It's probably when he was most dangerous, getting the ball from deep and running at defences, dribbling or picking passes to set people free.
You think its more important for the only DM on the other side - Schweinsteiger - to try and find space to be a "free" midfielder....or maybe keep an eye on Diego? Because he can't perform two roles in the same match either, can he? Or is it just Diego fecking Maradona that can't occupy space in midfield, then burst forward to attack?
Yes. Precisely. He did this better than anyone - making himself available, getting on the ball, and taking charge: Either by driving forward with the ball, or by picking out a pass at a runner. The only way to prevent him from influencing the game in this fashion is to stay tight on both him (as Matthäus did in the '86 final) - and the runners. There's no way, in my opinion, Cal's team can accomplish this to the necessary degree.
It's precisely the problem he faced in the last match: Maradona isn't shackled enough - and the rest of the team is too bloody good. Maradona played this game with Burruchaga and Valdano - here he has Eusebio and Van Basten to set up.
That said - I don't want to give the impression I think this is some sort of walkover. It clearly isn't. There's Pelé and Messi lurking on the other side.
It's tight. I said 2-1 and that's what I'll stand by.
Two great teams - and a very interesting final, with the tactical changes and all.
Good night, lads - I'm off to get drunk.
It's tight. I said 2-1 and that's what I'll stand by.
Two great teams - and a very interesting final, with the tactical changes and all.
Good night, lads - I'm off to get drunk.
Nah, disagree with that. I think he was most dangerous around the area picking up the ball in space in the hole. Sadly his teams were never as good as brazil '82 and thus unlike zico had to drop deep to start a lot of the plas. If he had cerenzo, falcao and socrates behind him he'd have even been better but thankfully for his teams' he was never all that dependent on the midfields service and would drop deep and do that whole maradona thing where he'd breach the midfield line easily beating multiple men. If he gets the ball in the 'hole' a lot more then he'd have the opportunity to decide more games. Have him coming deep a lot you won't have him as much in the final third.Maradona often dropped deep to pick up the ball. It's probably when he was most dangerous, getting the ball from deep and running at defences, dribbling or picking passes to set people free.
You think its more important for the only DM on the other side - Schweinsteiger - to try and find space to be a "free" midfielder....or maybe keep an eye on Diego? Because he can't perform two roles in the same match either, can he? Or is it just Diego fecking Maradona that can't occupy space in midfield, then burst forward to attack?
Why would Bastian need to be free? Isn't he gonna need to be strictly a defensive mid and give the ball to his midfield partners? He's serving one role. He's deffo not gonna be needed to be a box to box in this match. Although there are question marks as to whether he's enough of a defensive specialist to deal with the maradona/eusebio threat.
Disappointing upgrade from Cal considering who was available - Baresi would slotted right into that team and I think Schweinsteiger remains a concern against this calibre of opposition.
That said, I've gone for Cal. I don't particularly like the three centre backs here, particularly with Pele dropping deep in his false 9 role the three centre backs seems overkill.
I also agree with the comments on the two wing backs who IMO are slightly soft at this level yet are facing two unbelievably dangerous and offensive flanks in Alves/Messi and Carlos/Ronaldo. I'm not sure how much width they'll be providing against those flanks.
I would expect Cal to dominate possession here as well. Against a defensive formation with three centre backs there isn't going to be a great deal of pressing high up the park/pressing Cal's fullbacks which hands the initiative to Xavi in terms of controlling the game.
Ultimately it's a close game but I fancy Messi/Pele to make the difference offensively for Cal, whilst Xavi should exert control in midfield.
That said, I've gone for Cal. I don't particularly like the three centre backs here, particularly with Pele dropping deep in his false 9 role the three centre backs seems overkill.
I also agree with the comments on the two wing backs who IMO are slightly soft at this level yet are facing two unbelievably dangerous and offensive flanks in Alves/Messi and Carlos/Ronaldo. I'm not sure how much width they'll be providing against those flanks.
I would expect Cal to dominate possession here as well. Against a defensive formation with three centre backs there isn't going to be a great deal of pressing high up the park/pressing Cal's fullbacks which hands the initiative to Xavi in terms of controlling the game.
Ultimately it's a close game but I fancy Messi/Pele to make the difference offensively for Cal, whilst Xavi should exert control in midfield.
Well I guess we'll agree to disagree there then. Diego was great around the box, and in the hole, yes....but it limits his game to keep him there. He was most dangerous when running from deep with the ball...I think most would agree with that...and here he has ridiculous amounts of space to enjoy.
Question marks as to whether Bastian is defensive enough to deal with Maradona/Eusebio? I think that's one hell of an understatement considering the points you've raised about a midfield battle on the opposite side.
Nah, Cabrini was brilliant precisely at what he is being asked to do here: being the sole provider of width and running the flank single-handedly. In a back four I'm always a bit wary that the rest of the defence has to adjust to it, but with that trio at the back he is free to do immense damage. I would pick him ahead of Nilton or Krol in this setup TBH. Easily as worthy of being on that left flank as Alves is of manning the right one for Cal?. Would be a riveting battle that.
Amoros is the one looking less impressive, not a flank dominator AFAIC. He was great at crossing from deep or overlapping a wideman or wideish inside forward. Running the flank solo? I can't see it myself. And that's where Carlos' addition may not be too bad. I think Cal? should have looked at other options but, frankly, Maldini would have been pretty bored and largely tucking in to strengthen the backline. Given the possession Cal? is bound to enjoy, Carlos would work better and will have an absolute stormer on that flank.
Cal's starting formation is the major turn off for me, completely nuts. How long did it take to change and what was the scoreline then @Annahnomoss?
about 3-4 hours to change it I think. Match went up at 5am (my time), his post to change was at 8.50. When I came in to the thread at 9 something it was 5-2.
Just for you mate, I found this the other day and thought you would have a good laugh. It's from an absolutely terrible (but quite fun) attempt at starting a rival to Panini back in 1986. The spelling is awful, Stielike had retired from the NT, no idea what's up with Schumagger's (sic) hair. Mind you, Uwe Rahn's a photo and still doesn't look anything like him
Probably because back then there was no internet so "non-copyrighted photos in the public domain" were basically photo blowups from newspapers.My favourties is Mr. Spock impersonating Pierre Littbarski... It's fricking awesome!
That's basically 15 minutes into the game. Hmmm, not sure it would have given you an advantage. Your chaps had readied themselves for a different game so the first ten minutes or so would have been pretty meh while everyone adjusted. On the other hand, while I appreciate the team are well-drilled for tiki taka, having played it the last few games... how exactly do you switch back and forth at the drop of a hat?
I think it would take less adjustment for our team, who are playing the same players, and same formation, and basically the same style....than for the team who set up to play completely differently, then made two substitutions to adjust themselves to us.
Sure, you are largely playing the game you planned throughout, just had 15 minutes where you were given room to take more of the initiative and probably didn't. It doesn't really change things drastically at your end.
Somewhat, but as per the OP, we predicted he'd go with a hybrid formation and not go with the tiki-taka style, so we were perfectly prepared to take advantage of that. He would be the one needing to shuffle around tactically and try and get his guys going to get back in the game.
Alves and Carlos happen to be key players for 2 of the most successful sides ever, and you seem to have completely ignored that I've the better forwards, by some distance.
His main comparison was the midfield, addressing the odd points raised by someone else.
Alves and Carlos both were parts of great sides...however, the fact remains that defensively they're suspect, and with the counter attacking threat we have here, they'd not offer the protection Maldini and Ferdinand need.
I don't see how they're defensively suspect against your wing-less formation.
You're right. Because at no point throughout the game will Cabrini or Amoros attack, or my midfielders or forwards drift out wide.
No doubt by far the best pic.Cabrini or Amoros venturing forwards leaves Cristiano or Messi all alone, sound idea.
Cabrini or Amoros venturing forwards leaves Cristiano or Messi all alone, sound idea.
Not quite sure how you imagine things playing out in your head
Still a better idea than leaving Maldini - Ferdinand - Bastian against Maradona - Eusebio - Van Basten
Really?Not quite sure how you imagine things playing out in your head
Still a better idea than leaving Maldini - Ferdinand - Bastian against Maradona - Eusebio - Van Basten
I may leave your players 3 on 3 against a great CM, a great CB and possibly the best defender ever.
You're having your FB venture forwards and leaving 2 of the best players ever all alone...
Who is getting left alone? And they'll hardly be charging up field all game...but there's no reason for them not to when the opportunity arises. Especially since Ronaldo and Pele will hardly be employing your high press system.
Plus a great CM and a great CB stopping Maradona and Eusebio won't work out too well in your favour.
Maldini also has Van Basten ranked as the best player he's played with or against. Take it with a pinch of salt...but with the amount of space they'd have to exploit with your full backs pushed so far up...they'd be deadly.
You try to make it sound like Alves and Carlos are going to spend their time standing around in your half of the pitch. The fact is whilst neither of them are famous for their defending, they're both very quick and will able to do a good enough job to track your FBs in the rare occasion they venture forward, or track the runs of your strikers if they go out wide.
No more than you try to make it sound like Ronaldo and Messi will be in acres of space.
I refer you to Cabrini or Amoros venturing forwards, ie leaving Messi or Ronaldo in acres of space that only requires one Hollywood ball from any of my players, even a long throw by Schmikes would work.
Neither of them are line hugging wingers. They'll both cut inside...where I have 3 defenders.
How you figure a long ball throw from Schmeichel would somehow open a defence of Scirea, Figueroa, Ruggeri with Rijkaard and Van Hanegem in front...I don't even know.
I think you have more of an issue trying to get your forwards to play this high press game...especially when Ronaldo and Pele won't be into it. With Scirea and Figueroa back there, both can pick a pass and spring my team forward quickly.
You have a couple too many passengers to quite pull off that style...and your defence -while improved over previous matches - wouldn't have a shot at stopping our attack going forward.
You have a couple too many passengers to quite pull off that style...and your defence -while improved over previous matches - wouldn't have a shot at stopping our attack going forward.
They'll cut inside when there's space, but if your FBs have gone upfield, they can both put in a great cross when the occasion calls for it. Needless to say, a pin-point Messi goal to Ronaldo's head is
Also, it's not like Neymar or Suarez, Villa or Pedro were that great in terms of pressing. Ronaldo is more than capable of doing it. Messi's ability to drift effortlessly into midfield will help me dominate possession in midfield and Maradona being quite isolated for much of the game.
They'll cut inside when there's space, but if your FBs have gone upfield, they can both put in a great cross when the occasion calls for it. Needless to say, a pin-point Messi goal to Ronaldo's head is
Good thing my defenders are all good in the air
No, but they also didn't drop to the floor in a strop either. With Ronaldo losing the ball, which will happen, he's a "high risk" player in that regard...and your team pushing up so high...you're susceptible to counters...just like the actual Barca team are. The fact that I have two of the best players to play on the counter in Maradona and Eusebio spells trouble for that defence of yours.
You changed your entire tactics so you wouldn't try the same thing against the style that's had the most success against your team...then ended up making two subs and having to try and alter your tactics then on the fly.
Now you're going back up against the same style that has exposed the flaws in Pep's Barca sides...except (like anto said) it's on steroids. They've never had to compete with Rijkaard hounding them. Or try to break down a defence like Scirea-Figueroa-Ruggeri.
You play a high line, against the forwards we have, you get punished.