Loads of teams have two midfielders who both defend and attac you can't just pick and choose two teams you like and say that's what all top teams do. Carrick and Fellaini can both move forward and both defend, just because one isn't Nigel De Jong and the other Iniesta doesn't mean it won't work, unless you think it will be to confusing for them to understand a pivot?
Fellaini
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Loads of teams have two midfielders who both defend and attac you can't just pick and choose two teams you like and say that's what all top teams do. Carrick and Fellaini can both move forward and both defend, just because one isn't Nigel De Jong and the other Iniesta doesn't mean it won't work, unless you think it will be to confusing for them to understand a pivot?
I don't think we should be looking to adapt Carrick's game at the age of 32, especially when he's shown over the last two years what a brilliant player he is doing what he currently does.
How did I not know this? I think I had it in my head / presumed that they paid about £6m for him. Why the feck did they pay £15m for a 20 year-old from Belgium (before Belgium was hip)?
It probably does Fellaini a bit of a disservice, but the main plus of signing him would be we could turn up at Stoke/West Ham and similar oafish teams and now put out Ferdinand/Vidic/Jones/Fellaini/VP/Welbeck, and have plenty of height and strength to deal with them
Much better than the days we were showing up with Evans! No disrespect to him!
Much better than the days we were showing up with Evans! No disrespect to him!
?
They are not a passer and a runner. Thats the point.
They'd be fine together but a million miles from classic. Theres no need for people to tell fibs
How did I not know this? I think I had it in my head / presumed that they paid about £6m for him. Why the feck did they pay £15m for a 20 year-old from Belgium (before Belgium was hip)?
Why did you pay 15-20m for Young? 7m for Bebe?
At least he has been worth the money we paid for him.
He's been a fantastic signing, as shown by the fact he's likely to go to Arsenal or Manchester United for more than you paid for him.
So are we going back for a second bid? Or is that it?
Ed is on his way to Australia so he can rush back from Australia as we speak. Or type.
Fellaini can be a monster for us in certain situations. I still wouldn't be surprised if Cleverly started more games than him this season (if we sign him of course)
Evans is 6'2 and a comparable height to all those that you've mentioned.
He lacks the strength of all of them.
I doubt anyone would prefer to have him in centre defence against physical teams than Vidic or Ferdy
Three obvious reasons that spring to mind: English, Premier League Experienced, Top-club tax (ie same reason Arsenal can be expected to pay £15m for Cabaye, but Everton or Villa would probably get him for more like £10m and if we signed him it would be closer to £20m)
That's a joke, right? If you find anybody who knows, do post it on the caf.
No doubt. He's been an excellent signing, and turned out to be worth the £15m (though the sell-on is a bit of a piss-take).
Well Bayern have shown one way to do it, doesn't mean it's the only way. Plus Fellaini as a cm is not proven at all in the way Schweinsteiger was/is and the way Martinez showed himself to be. Also Bayern to me look like they're gonna go for the creative option this season in Thiago than the solid base in Martinez going forward, something tells me they'll still look very dominant.
Like I said I don't disagree that two solid midfielders wouldn't work my concern is that I don't think Fellaini is the quality we need. Better than Clev/Ando yes but neither should be first choice options for a title/CL challenging team. Maybe it would be different if he hadn't spent a big chunk of time playing up front, but I don't see how he's proven as someone who's going to keep it solid against the top teams which if we were going for that approach we would need.
Where as a creative player might not allow us to really compete with the very best in europe but would give us a much better chance at competing in the league. As I said I think we miss that guy who can find our wingers high up the pitch with a 50 yard pass to feet. I think that was a big aspect of our play and although Carrick is capable of great passes he's not up there with the very best which Scholes was.
As I said a creative player to allow us to do that role and an understudy who can provide the solid option when we need it would have been ideal for me. Fellaini to me does provide physicality but his style is untested in the champions league and I'm not sure he will really add significant defensive strength to overcome his lack of creativity. The other factor is how he balances with the squad. Martinez and Schwein are both very good on the ball, I don't think I've seen that from Fellaini. I can't see him provident the passes out wide I was talking about and not sure how well he would play off Kagawa.
Anyway as I've said I'd take Fellaini over no one, he can certainly do a job there and I don't doubt we will be more solid with him, plus he's worth a few goals with his head and RVP's corners/freekicks. But he's not the ideal option as I don't think he's the quality player to form the sort of partnership you're talking about, and he's not got that creativity to do the one I'd like.
Moyes has said his best position is deeper, and Fellaini says he feels more comfortable there. Let's notforget it was only lst season where he played predominantly more advanced. He has still played deeper many times and done it well. SAF bought Ando for a deeper role, despite him never having played like that. Capacity and attitude is the key element. Fellaini, despite admitting he doesn't feel comfortable as a 10, still had the tactical discipline and awareness to be effective there. Why then should playing in a more comfortable role pose him much problem? Moyes know him, knows he can rely upon him to do the job whether he enjoys it or not. That's a good indication of his versatility and professionalism, as well as displaying a willingness to sacrifice his own best interests for the good of the team.
Fletcher wasn't the quality we needed either, but his differing attributes to Carrick still enabled them to form an excellent partnership. They provided that base which allowed others in the team the freedom to be more creative. This was despite Fletcher having a similar lack of creativity to Fellaini, and being far from the quality of aggressive midfielder we had enjoyed before him. In the absence of a Roy Keane, someone with desire and determination to make a difference is just as vital as someone who can spray the ball around. Fletcher proved the difference in big games for the way he set the tone by getting in the opponents faces, and limiting the impact of their star men. We shouldn't get too caught up in what Fellaini wouldn't bring, and think more of what he will bring. We have missed the influence of Fletcher in the big games, someone to stamp their authority and show that desire and determination that lifts those around him.
For all Carrick's talent, there would not have been many who would have picked him over Fletcher for those season defining big games. Why? Personality Ash, simply a question of attitude and desire to be the man. Someone who can lift teammates with their example. We miss that intimidating presence, that desire and aggression that wins games mentally, and allows the more cultured players better opportunity to shine. Fellaini can be our new Fletcher. Yes he has limitations, and so did Fletcher, but that doesn't mean we can't be a far more intimidating prospect and more effective team with him in the side.
Wasn't Fletcher limited too Pete? We still managed to win 3 titles and make 2 CL finals with him in the team. He brought attributes we lacked then, and we still lack them currently. You don't always have to have the best of the best to be effective. I think Fellaini would give us much of what Fletcher brought and a bit more goal threat on top, i hope it happens personally. I have little faith in the midfield options we have now being enough in the big games. We will be outplayed by the better teams simply because we have no-one to get stuck into their top players, and limit their threat.
You of all people should recall how effective a player like that has been for us against your lot in the past!
How did I not know this? I think I had it in my head / presumed that they paid about £6m for him. Why the feck did they pay £15m for a 20 year-old from Belgium (before Belgium was hip)?
Because he did a man marking job on Stevie GEEEEEEEEEEEEE.
Even if Moyes thought his best position was deeper he hasn't been playing there and from what I remember its been the bulk of two seasons not just one. I don't doubt Moyes backs his attitude but that's different to actually seeing it tested against the best teams.
Fletcher was perfect for the time and especially fitted in very well with a team with Ronaldo in it, having the work rate to really help cover any gaps that were left as a response. We don't have that devastating attacking talent, yes RVP is a top player but he's not Ronaldo. The other thing fletcher enabled was Scholes to play, where we could still utilize his deep play making skills, the best in the leagues. When he was picked over Carrick it was because he was playing better, not just his spirit. Spirit is great but its got to be backed by actual impact. Plus Carrick has more than shown he's up to the fight since he came back in to form.
Again I'm not saying Fellaini has nothing to offer I'm just saying he's not the ideal player and unfortunately I personally can't remember him putting in performances from central midfield in the vein Fletcher was during his peak years. Maybe he's got the same fighting spirit but doesn't mean he's got the influence from a deeper role to back it up. Also as much as a Roy Keane like player would be great I wouldn't say no to a Paul Scholes player either.
It's odd because I personally think the Fletcher Carrick combo is generally underrated and I think it would be important to have the option to go with a similar set up, as I said though my preference for an established signing would be someone who has a top passing range because I think we need that to get the best out of our wingers.
How did I not know this? I think I had it in my head / presumed that they paid about £6m for him. Why the feck did they pay £15m for a 20 year-old from Belgium (before Belgium was hip)?
He has been well worth the outlay.
Yep, you got away with it due to strengths elsewhere in the team. City used De Jong two seasons ago but soon got shot. In the modern world, Barca, Bayern et al don't play donkeys in CM.
There is a fallacy permeating this forum about how Fellaini is not cut out for United. I have been watching football for almost 30 years and spent 14 years coaching it and over that time I think I can spot the strengths and weaknesses of most players I watch. Here is how I think Fellaini would work out at United.
Advantages
He would solidify a midfield that has been lacking a consistent ball winner and physical presence since Roy Keane.
His passing is short and simple.
Surprisingly quick footed with the ball in tight situations
His aerial presence at set pieces will be beneficial for us in both boxes.
His overall aerial ability is probably unsurpassed in the PL
He does have an eye for goal in the box and I imagine he would get close to 10 for us per season.
Worked with the manager before.
Disadvantages
Lack of pace could hurt in a fast flowing game. However if he is to sit the furthest back in a midfield 3 that may not be that a big of an issue.
His temperament is questionable at times and he might pick up cards quite regularly.
Does not have a long range shot or the ability to score many outside the box
Not consistent enough with through balls or incisive passing
As you can see, for me, the advantages outweigh the doubts. I think what has been made clear by Moyes transfer targets this summer
is that he values players with premier league experience and to me that is the key with Fellaini.
He isnt the big extravagant latin signing everyone is clamoring for and because he is perceived as a long ball donkey many on here
dismiss him as being a legitimately good player for us. I think overall he would give us an extra edge in both boxes and some steel in midfield and
certainly would flourish being surrounded by better players.
Advantages
He would solidify a midfield that has been lacking a consistent ball winner and physical presence since Roy Keane.
His passing is short and simple.
Surprisingly quick footed with the ball in tight situations
His aerial presence at set pieces will be beneficial for us in both boxes.
His overall aerial ability is probably unsurpassed in the PL
He does have an eye for goal in the box and I imagine he would get close to 10 for us per season.
Worked with the manager before.
Disadvantages
Lack of pace could hurt in a fast flowing game. However if he is to sit the furthest back in a midfield 3 that may not be that a big of an issue.
His temperament is questionable at times and he might pick up cards quite regularly.
Does not have a long range shot or the ability to score many outside the box
Not consistent enough with through balls or incisive passing
As you can see, for me, the advantages outweigh the doubts. I think what has been made clear by Moyes transfer targets this summer
is that he values players with premier league experience and to me that is the key with Fellaini.
He isnt the big extravagant latin signing everyone is clamoring for and because he is perceived as a long ball donkey many on here
dismiss him as being a legitimately good player for us. I think overall he would give us an extra edge in both boxes and some steel in midfield and
certainly would flourish being surrounded by better players.
If we continue to play with traditional wingers, which is far from certain. Moyes played Pienaar and Mirallasout wide, none of which are wingers as SAF employed them. A 4-2-3-1, which is likely should we sign Fellaini, depends more on wide players coming in to give goal threat, and allowing the full backs to provide the width. We have Nani, Young, Zaha, Welbeck, Rooney and Kagawa who would all be comfortable interchanging behind RVP. As i said too much emphasis on wingers and playmakers spreading the ball to them. We can still create width within a narrower system, and that seems to be a far more progressive approach than a reliance on touchline wingers as we had under SAF. The game has moved on from that approach, and we will do no better in Europe if we continue with such a stretched out midfield. A narrower, more solid system allows for better control of the ball, and makes it far easier to employ an effective pressing game. Which i fully expect to see from Moyes.
Yeah: 'The kids love little things like that'. Eee-oww.
Fellaini is nothing like De Jong though. In effect De Jong is a third CB, offering little more than physicality in front of the back 4. Fellaini has far more to his game than that, and is far more intelligent than many like to give him credit for. He is no Redondo, that's for sure, but then you don't have to be to still be effective. I like his attitude, he lifts himself for the big games and has the look of a winner who believes he can make the difference.
In my view it was his desire and refusal to accept defeat that saw Everton come back from 2 goals down twice with only 10 mins to go at OT a couple of years ago. His performance in that last 20mins gave Everton the belief that they could get something from the game and they did. That result cost us the title, and Fellaini's determination played a huge part in them achieving it.
I've seen him have a good game too but I've seen far more where he's simply not at the races against a top-class CM. And that's playing for Everton where he can sit in a 451. Not Man Utd where he's in a CM two.
Totally different to de jong. Fellaini would offer a huge attacking threat.
I have some concerns over his discipline but trust moyes so would be fairly happy if he signs.
I have some concerns over his discipline but trust moyes so would be fairly happy if he signs.
Hopefully, we have seen the last of the CM 2 and touchline wingers. I expect Moyes to pack the midfield far more, and employ a narrower system to better implement an effective pressing game if nothing else. Moyes hasn't had the success of SAF, and has no reason to defer from what served him well at Everton. SAF stuck with what served him well over the years, but in the end it looked a little naïve and predictable especially in Europe. Moyes will have to be far more cautious, he will certainly not be given anywhere near as much leeway as SAF was for strange team selections.
That's probably the biggest fear Id have as well. The spotlight is such at United that he could become an easy target with refs.
I do think he's improved drastically in terms of picking them up....the stupid ones I mean. His role is such that he's always going to pick up a fair number. His red card record is good though.
Can somebody clear up what could a misunderstanding or myth about Fellaini's contract wihich i have been told? This being that Standard Liege stipulated that they would receive the remainder of any sell-on fee in excess of 15-16m.
A newspaper review i just heard was discussing United's joint bid being increased to £35m you see.
A newspaper review i just heard was discussing United's joint bid being increased to £35m you see.
Fine retort. He would walk into that Arsenal midfield. Then again Arsenal are used to donkeys
Good points made here along with Apothesis's relevant post just previous. He would win a load of balls in midfield we currently don't do, turn over possession and allow the more highly technical and creative players the opportunity to do their damage. Just because he doesn't spray 80 yard balls for fun doesn't mean he is useless to us, he has his own unique style, a combination of strength, dominance and aerial prowess that he mixes with a surprisingly good technique for a lad so physically big, take a look at his performance against us on the opening day of last season, he was unplayable. I would be delighted to sign him, he would make a contribution at both ends of the pitch and add some dominance to the middle in general.
Why do you trust Moyes? what has he done to have earned any United supporters trust? I don't get it, I could understand him setting his Everton teams out a certain way, and also buying the players he did on a limited budget, he was trying to keep Everton in European places, so fair enough. But this isn't Everton, he's like a deer in the headlights with his handling of transfers so far, he's made a right fecking balls up of it imo, that goes for Woodward to.
Maybe his mates in the media who wrote that article bigging up his scouting network, and him having dossiers on thousands of players should ask him how on earth they've managed to scout thousands of players and yet when push comes to shove the only ones he wants are Fellaini and Baines? are we supposed to believe that in all his years of looking for players he hasn't seen anyone apart from Fabregas who he thought was a huge talent but was out of his reach at Everton? it's strange that he's scouted the world yet is only interested in players who he's either managed or has played against him in the premier league. I think it's making him look fecking daft and lacking in imagination and knowledge of players tbh.
Whats funny is ive seen the same fans who wanted Fergie to go for him last season but this season dont want Moyes to go for him. Weird.
I'd let him get a season under his belt before we start significantly analyzing his activity in the transfer market. Whatever scouting he did or potential targets he fancied were based on the outlook of Everton up until two months ago, not a title winning squad - I'm sure it takes more than a couple of youtube videos to change that.
Exactly why he shouldn't be turning to Fellaini and Baines, they're at the level they should be at, a team fighting to get into Europe, not a team looking to win the European cup. Lets not forget that in one of his earlier interviews after he got the job, there was something mentioned about him and Lumsden regularly having lengthy talks about the players they would love to sign if they were at a club like United, are Baines and Fellaini now their dream signings? this is some baffling bollocks going on here.
I'd rather they didn't sign anyone and just go with Carrick, Anderson, Cleverley and when he's fit Powell, maybe Moyes can then get his crack unit of super scouts to scour the earth for a player superior to Fellaini, that should take them all of 10 minutes.
You make it all seem so simplistic and easy. Thats the baffling bollocks, that people can view it all as something that can be solved in the time it takes to have a beer and a pie.
Yeah, but they're undoubtedly the two most stand-out players in that team. You put them in a team where their ability level is at least matched everywhere else in the team/squad, and they become important cogs in a mightier machine.
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