Fellaini

[Ash_G]

I'm equally baffled frankly. I think Spurs, for example, have done good business in centre midfield this summer bringing in players who have the potential to get better but at prices that can be more or less dismissed if they don't go on to be as good as you would want them to be. Why couldn't we do that?

Yeah but in general I'm sure there must be some stars out there just waiting for the right stage. The other thing with Fellaini I guess is that especially at that price he'd be surely a first teamer with Carrick. I always thought of us going for a younger understudy to Carrick and then a more established creative player.

 

[Theon]

So the rumors that we were waiting for his release clause to expire so we could bid less seem to be true.

That doesn't make sense though, even if he still had a release clause we could bid below it - they just wouldn't be obligated to accept

I don't understand why we've let that clause expire if we want to sign him

 

[The Neviller]

I don't think that Baines is worth only 12m (I don't think that we need him at all and do not want him here but that's something else). He is one of the two best Everton players and one of the best (of not the best) left back in England. Just for the sake of argument Madrid paid for Coentrao 30m while Liverpool paid for Johnson around 18m and neither of them was better than Baines (though they were younger). I think that Baines is worth more than 15m in today's market. Also, I don't think that there is a chance that they accept anything less than 20m for Fellaini (and rightly so). I expect them to ask for 23-25m for him. Players cost today a lot, especially if they are important for the club and the club who wants to sign them is in need for that type of player (for us a midfielder). All arguments that they get a profit from them (7m) I think are weak because there have passed 5 or more years since they signed these players and while then they were unknown players now they are among the best in the league in their positions.

You're focusing on the profit thing as if that was my main point of argument, it wasn't. I simply said its not like we offered them a loss on their initial outlay, so where is the insult.

Baines is worth little more than what we offered. Fellaini didn't attract any bids when he was available for £23mil, so how he is now worth up to £25mil is beyond me.

At most, we're a couple of million short per player on their likely market value. I see no other club currently bidding more for either player. Where is the insult?

 

[GlastonSpur]

Well with you, its a paint by numbers post. And as predictable as the sun rising in the morning and setting in the evening. Throw a few digs in about United, label them inept in the transfer market. Accuse them of not acting in a correct manner, hit reply. Rinse and repeat.

Tedious.

A perfect example of what I said a few moments ago: fail to address anything in the football-related post I've made and instead come back with yet more blather about the poster.

 

[Bestie07]

That doesn't make sense though, even if he still had a release clause we could bid below it - they just wouldn't be obligated to accept

I don't understand why we've let that clause expire if we want to sign him

Yup, very strange. Having a release clause at least put a ceiling on the transfer fee as well as a guarantee that we would get our player if we were willing to go that high. As of now, I'm not sure that Everton will even sell at the fee that was stated in his now expired release clause.

 

[The Neviller]

We are.

Ok.

 

[Sir A1ex]

Yup, very strange. Having a release clause at least put a ceiling on the transfer fee as well as a guarantee that we would get our player if we were willing to go that high. As of now, I'm not sure that Everton will even sell at the fee that was stated in his now expired release clause.

Only way it sort of makes sense is if we are confident that we can get him for less anyway, in whihc case the clause becomes an irrelevance.

 

[The Neviller]

I did address what you posted. It was another wummy dig, wrapped up in a football post. How do you expect to be taken seriously when you're so transparent. At least when Pete wums he doesn't try and pretend he isn't.

A perfect example of what I said a few moments ago: fail to address anything in the football-related post I've made and instead come back with yet more blather about the poster.

 

[Theon]

Only way it sort of makes sense is if we are confident that we can get him for less anyway, in whihc case the clause becomes an irrelevance.

That's just an unnecessary risk though. If we want the player then bid for him when there is a clear cap on the price. Waiting for it to expire doesn't add anything

The reaction of Everton today implies he won't be going for anything like £17million

 

[Someone]

I think the issue some people have is that we never went any higher than 30m for Fabregas even though he would slot into our midfield without any problems yet we are willing to overpay for Fellaini considering we could have got him for 23m.

But we don't know whether more money would've landed fabregas or not, for some reason or another fabregas is flat out not available anymore, fellaini on the other hand is clearly available for the right money, his true value doesn't matter because everton don't have to sell, so we have to make deal good enough for them, most likely more than his worth, at the end of the day all that matters for me is getting the player we want, if we have to pay few millions more then, good for everton.

 

[Comsmit]

Where are you getting the Gibson fee from? It was reported around half a million. My point is that Utd have dealt well with Everton and given a number of players on the cheap. They aren't duty bound to sell us players cheap but I'd say we deserve a little better than the shite coming out of Goodison right now. You think otherwise so there's no more to say on the matter.

Gibsons fee was reportedly a million rising to 2 million based on appearances. There's plenty more I could say...perhaps don't come out with daft statements in future then. Everton don't owe us anything, we just took their manager for nothing, remember that. If they feel the offers are derisory then they are entitled to say so, we said the same when addressing Chelsea's bid for Rooney.

 

[NotoriousISSY]

That's just an unnecessary risk though. If we want the player then bid for him when there is a clear cap on the price. Waiting for it to expire doesn't add anything

The reaction of Everton today implies he won't be going for anything like £17million

But at the same time it means we won't be buying him if he's going to cost £25m or whatever the clause was.

Well that's logically speaking, otherwise we'll have wasted time in not getting him sooner.

 

[Bestie07]

Only way it sort of makes sense is if we are confident that we can get him for less anyway, in whihc case the clause becomes an irrelevance.

I am not sure we are confident about anything in this transfer window. But even if that was the case, it would have made more sense to make a bid when the clause was still active and getting him before the season started. The only reason I can think of is that Everton were point blank refusing to negotiate while the clause was active and pointing to it, while we didn't feel he was worth that much.

 

[lem8sh]

Where are you getting the Gibson fee from? It was reported around half a million. My point is that Utd have dealt well with Everton and given a number of players on the cheap. They aren't duty bound to sell us players cheap but I'd say we deserve a little better than the shite coming out of Goodison right now. You think otherwise so there's no more to say on the matter.

What shite? If they feel the offer is derisory (and it is) they have every right to say so. We don't have a God given right to buy whoever we want.

 

[Summit]

You've wasted the whole summer chasing unattainable CM targets. And now, when the season has already started, you turn to Fellaini with a lowball bid that seems purpose-designed to piss off Everton. And worse you come back in for Baines by offering the same amount that was rejected several weeks ago.

Look at the circumstances:

* He's their best player (and you also want to take their 2nd best player).
* Selling him would leave them with not much time to find a replacement.
* Compared to Everton you have huge wealth and plenty of money.
* Everton now know (after all your failed CM signing attempts) that you are desperate to sign a CM.
* Compared to the gamble they took when they signed him, he's now Prem experienced and didn't flop.

Yet you come in with an offer that - taking in account inflation - is less than what they paid for him originally (and taking into account football-fee inflation, your offer is much less than what they paid for him originally). And what's more, Fellaini now knows that at best he's 3rd or 4th target choice for United ... which is not a great incentive if you're now expecting him to kick up a fuss about wanting to leave and thereby force Everton into accepting a low offer.

To call your strategy inept would be generous.

So what now? Are you going to waste more time by incrementally increasing these derisory bid(s) every few days? Or perhaps the plan - as you've done with Baines - is to wait and then come back with an unchanged offer?

Why don't you stop pissing around? If MUFC is now resigned to seeking Fellaini and if you want Baines, then make an offer that is actually attractive to Everton, one that makes it worth their while to sell. Time is running out: you've already missed the advantage of having both players in pre-season, but now with every passing day Everton are only going to get more reluctant to sell and the fee they'll seek will only get bigger.

Do you know what mate, I agree with most of that. At the start of the window we went for Thiago, all looked good at one point until Bayern came in. Then more or less the day after barca sold Thiago, we went hard for Fabregas and said he was our primary target. Why didn't we bid earlier for him I was wondering, but then I thought that surely there would be no way we'd go public with chasing Fabregas, if we hadn't had the go ahead, and then it all comes out that we have been bidding blind for him. To top that saga off we released to the media that Edd was on his way home from Australia to carry out urgent business...we are still wating to find out what that was about too.

Then we have Fellaini, who had a buy out clause for around 23m (I think). And a lot of people thinks that is a fair price for him, yet we wait until that clause has expired and bid 16m for him. I said in this thread earlier that we would do that and got laughed off the thread for it.

So yeah, much of what you have said is pretty much bob on, for a cnut!

 

[Comsmit]

I take it you rate him, I don't. It's that simple really not exactly rocket science.

No its not that simple, rate him as what, being able to play football? Being able to play football very well? Or not being able to play football as good as say...Fabregas?

Rating someone isn't just a simple measure as in "yes I rate them" or "no I don't."

 

[Theon]

But at the same time it means we won't be buying him if he's going to cost £25m or whatever the clause was.

Well that's logically speaking, otherwise we'll have wasted time in not getting him sooner.

I think the clause was £23million

Yeah, what you're saying I think is that the fact that United refused to bid the £23million when the clause was active means we'll never go over it now. So basically that it is irrelevant.

Letting it expire though doesn't add anything, we could have still decided to bid under the clause. Situations can change as well, we haven't signed anyone this summer and judging on the targets Moyes clearly wants to improve centre mid. If it gets to the 28th/29th and noone has been brought in Moyes could easily reassess the Fellaini situation and be prepared to offer a higher fee - simply because the other deals like Fabregas haven't been successful.

If that happens United's value of £20million now could easily become £25million at the end of the window, in which case the clause would have benefitted us. Personally I just think if we wanted Fellaini then we should have negotiated when there was a clear cap on the price

 

[The Neviller]

What shite? If they feel the offer is derisory (and it is) they have every right to say so. We don't have a God given right to buy whoever we want.

We have a right to bid whatever we want for whoever we want, though. Nobody has said Everton should have accepted the bid. They are well within their rights to reject it. Whining about it being "insulting" is a load of balls, though.

If the bid is derisory, how much are the two players worth, individually, in the current market? I see no clubs outbidding us for either, 28/29 year old left backs don't often cost much more than £12mil, and nobody wanted Fellaini for £20mil+. So, what are they worth, if not our "derisory" offer?

 

[lem8sh]

No its not that simple, rate him as what, being able to play football? Being able to play football very well? Or not being able to play football as good as say...Fabregas?

Rating someone isn't just a simple measure as in "yes I rate them" or "no I don't."

Jesus Christ this is getting tedious I dunno are you genuinely slow or just taking the piss. In my opinion he is not good enough to play for Manchester United. You clearly think differently which is fine. Simples.

 

[acnumber9]

What shite? If they feel the offer is derisory (and it is) they have every right to say so. We don't have a God given right to buy whoever we want.

Did Utd run crying to the media about a derisory offer for Rooney? They have every right to reject it but why not leave it there?

 

[Someone]

You've wasted the whole summer chasing unattainable CM targets. And now, when the season has already started, you turn to Fellaini with a lowball bid that seems purpose-designed to piss off Everton. And worse you come back in for Baines by offering the same amount that was rejected several weeks ago.

Look at the circumstances:

* He's their best player (and you also want to take their 2nd best player).
* Selling him would leave them with not much time to find a replacement.
* Compared to Everton you have huge wealth and plenty of money.
* Everton now know (after all your failed CM signing attempts) that you are desperate to sign a CM.
* Compared to the gamble they took when they signed him, he's now Prem experienced and didn't flop.

Yet you come in with an offer that - taking in account inflation - is less than what they paid for him originally (and taking into account football-fee inflation, your offer is much less than what they paid for him originally). And what's more, Fellaini now knows that at best he's 3rd or 4th target choice for United ... which is not a great incentive if you're now expecting him to kick up a fuss about wanting to leave and thereby force Everton into accepting a low offer.

To call your strategy inept would be generous.

So what now? Are you going to waste more time by incrementally increasing these derisory bid(s) every few days? Or perhaps the plan - as you've done with Baines - is to wait and then come back with an unchanged offer?

Why don't you stop pissing around? If MUFC is now resigned to seeking Fellaini and if you want Baines, then make an offer that is actually attractive to Everton, one that makes it worth their while to sell. Time is running out: you've already missed the advantage of having both players in pre-season, but now with every passing day Everton are only going to get more reluctant to sell and the fee they'll seek will only get bigger.

It's such a shame that the club isn't run by someone as intelligent and experienced in the transfer market as you glatson.

I mean moyes after all those years of experience in the game has decided, out of the blue, chasing fabregas knowing very well that the player doesn't want to come and the club doesn't want to sell, i'm sure there were no hints whatsoever from his agent that it may happen, moyes just wanted to do it for the sake of doing it.

Also how dare the club make a starting bid to everton lower than what they expect? what respectable club would do that? let's just ask how much do they need and hand it over without any negotiations.

And your point about fellaini is spot on, knowing he wasn't out first choice will probably hurt him so much that he won't bother chasing after a move to the champions of england and double his wage in the process.

We've truly fecked up, i wish we had someone at the club like you.

 

[The Neviller]

Do you know what mate, I agree with most of that. At the start of the window we went for Thiago, all looked good at one point until Bayern came in. Then more or less the day after barca sold Thiago, we went hard for Fabregas and said he was our primary target. Why didn't we bid earlier for him I was wondering, but then I thought that surely there would be no way we'd go public with chasing Fabregas, if we hadn't had the go ahead, and then it all comes out that we have been bidding blind for him. To top that saga off we released to the media that Edd was on his way home from Australia to carry out urgent business...we are still wating to find out what that was about too.

Then we have Fellaini, who had a buy out clause for around 23m (I think). And a lot of people thinks that is a fair price for him, yet we wait until that clause has expired and bid 16m for him. I said in this thread earlier that we would do that and got laughed off the thread for it.

So yeah, much of what you have said is pretty much bob on, for a cnut!

It saddens me to see United fans agree with a Spurs fan clearly on the WUM.

 

[NotoriousISSY]

I think the clause was £23million

Yeah, what you're saying I think is that the fact that United refused to bid the £23million when the clause was active means we'll never go over it now. So basically that it is irrelevant.

Letting it expire though doesn't add anything, we could have still decided to bid under the clause. Situations can change as well, we haven't signed anyone this summer and judging on the targets Moyes clearly wants to improve centre mid. If it gets to the 28th/29th and noone has been brought in Moyes could easily reassess the Fellaini situation and be prepared to offer a higher fee - simply because the other deals like Fabregas haven't been successful.

If that happens United's value of £20million now could easily become £25million at the end of the window, in which case the clause would have benefitted us. Personally I just think if we wanted Fellaini then we should have negotiated when there was a clear cap on the price

Just adds more fuel to the 'Moyes and Woodward are clueless' fire.

I don't really understand myself either. The reported clause seems a suitable price, but I'm guessing Fellaini isn't necessarily the player we REALLY wanted and we're playing the odds at getting a good midfielder signed up as opposed to going all out for an absolutely top player because it seems an absolutely brilliant midfielder isn't going to happen.

 

[datura]

Everton seem to have employed Liverpool's PR team to issue their communications. That's the only embarrassing bit about this situation.

 

[lem8sh]

We have a right to bid whatever we want for whoever we want, though. Nobody has said Everton should have accepted the bid. They are well within their rights to reject it. Whining about it being "insulting" is a load of balls, though.

If the bid is derisory, how much are the two players worth, individually, in the current market? I see no clubs outbidding us for either, 28/29 year old left backs don't often cost much more than £12mil, and nobody wanted Fellaini for £20mil+. So, what are they worth, if not our "derisory" offer?

They rejected 12mill already for Baines so 28mill would definitely be undervaluing the two of them in Evertons eyes.

 

[GlastonSpur]

I did address what you posted. It was another wummy dig, wrapped up in a football post. How do you expect to be taken seriously when you're so transparent. At least when Pete wums he doesn't try and pretend he isn't.

No, you didn't. You've responded instead with two (and now three) posts about me as a poster and have failed to address a single one of the points I made.

You seem to treat anything that's remotely critical of United as either a wind-up (if it's from an opposition fan) or an act of disloyalty or heresy (if it comes from a United fan). Most of the time when I see your posts you're tangling with other United fans because they've dared to say something that doesn't toe the party-line.

 

[lem8sh]

Did Utd run crying to the media about a derisory offer for Rooney? They have every right to reject it but why not leave it there?

Because they don't have to. Jesus you're crying over nothing here, they felt it was derisory and they said so it's not the end of the world is it.

 

[The Neviller]

They rejected 12mill already for Baines so 28mill would definitely be undervaluing the two of them in Evertons eyes.

We're not looking through Evertons eyes. I asked you a question, which you've avoided. If our bid was derisory, how much are they worth?

 

[Ainu]

I don't see why Everton should be so outraged about this bid. It's on the low side but that's the point of an opening bid. Either they tell us to feck off or they counter our bid by telling us their valuation. I feel their reaction is completely uncalled for, certainly seeing as we've seemingly always had a good understanding with Everton in the transfer market.

They probably want between 5 and 10 million pounds more, so an opening bid that's only a few million per player short isn't ridiculous at all. It's a decent starting point for a negotiation. They'll probably counter it by asking around 38m and with some back and forth settle around £33-35m, which is fair for both parties in my opinion.

In short, this just seems like a perfectly normal way to behave on the transfer market. No idea what all the fuss is about. I agree we've left it late but that's another matter entirely.

 

[Goooose]

It's funny how this bid was inevitable, but when it finally happens we bid nowhere near enough for Everton to accept.

 

[Summit]

It saddens me to see United fans agree with a Spurs fan clearly on the WUM.

WUM or not, I agree that we have been inept in the transfer window so far. His WUM isn't working on me like it is on you though, as what he is saying isn't far from the truth tbh so it is hard to get up tight about it.

 

[lem8sh]

We're not looking through Evertons eyes. I asked you a question, which you've avoided. If our bid was derisory, how much are they worth?

I don't rate Fellaini at all so asking me is pointless. I can see where Everton are coming from in terms of their previous valuation of Baines. But if I had think of an offer probably around 33-34 million? £20m for Fellaini which would still only be £5m profit and £13m-£14m for Baines.

 

[Bestie07]

I don't see why Everton should be so outraged about this bid.

Bidding the same amount for Baines that was already rejected earlier on in the summer is "derisory and insulting". It's almost as if we are expecting the player to kick up a fuss.

 

[Deleted 20801]

No, you didn't. You've responded instead with two (and now three) posts about me as a poster and have failed to address a single one of the points I made.

You seem to treat anything that's remotely critical of United as either a wind-up (if it's from an opposition fan) or an act of disloyalty or heresy (if it comes from a United fan). Most of the time when I see your posts you're tangling with other United fans because they've dared to say something that doesn't toe the party-line.

Can't believe I'm agreeing with Glaston.

 

[datura]

Bidding the same amount for Baines that was already rejected earlier on in the summer is "derisory and insulting". It's almost as if we are expecting the player to kick up a fuss.

How do you know what we've bid? All supposition treated as fact.

 

[Slevs]

We rejected 12m before, does he think We will lose our memory and accept the same fee a month down the line? Insulting.

It's not Uniteds valuation that matters, it's ours. Martinez said that he was delighted the clause was lifted, so I think in all honesty he believes that 20m is the lowest bid we will accept from you.

It is classless in the sense that I can only see this as being an attempt to unsettle the two.

You could have said at the time that there are other bidders and wanted more than 12 million. Don't forget one month isn't that long but it's a long time in the transfer market. It's almost the end and there have been no other bidders for Baines, so we may have said that we're not upping our bid cause the other bidders haven't done anything.

They're been unsettled ever since Moyes left for Utd, every Everton player must have been praying that he takes them with him, and these newspaper stories about Fellaini and Baines have been there ever since Sir Alex retired. It's a bit foolish to say it's an attempt to unsettle them. If there was any unsettling going on, it started way before these bids.

 

[Stretch]

You've wasted the whole summer chasing unattainable CM targets. And now, when the season has already started, you turn to Fellaini with a lowball bid that seems purpose-designed to piss off Everton. And worse you come back in for Baines by offering the same amount that was rejected several weeks ago.

Look at the circumstances:

* He's their best player (and you also want to take their 2nd best player).
* Selling him would leave them with not much time to find a replacement.
* Compared to Everton you have huge wealth and plenty of money.
* Everton now know (after all your failed CM signing attempts) that you are desperate to sign a CM.
* Compared to the gamble they took when they signed him, he's now Prem experienced and didn't flop.

Yet you come in with an offer that - taking in account inflation - is less than what they paid for him originally (and taking into account football-fee inflation, your offer is much less than what they paid for him originally). And what's more, Fellaini now knows that at best he's 3rd or 4th target choice for United ... which is not a great incentive if you're now expecting him to kick up a fuss about wanting to leave and thereby force Everton into accepting a low offer.

To call your strategy inept would be generous.

So what now? Are you going to waste more time by incrementally increasing these derisory bid(s) every few days? Or perhaps the plan - as you've done with Baines - is to wait and then come back with an unchanged offer?

Why don't you stop pissing around? If MUFC is now resigned to seeking Fellaini and if you want Baines, then make an offer that is actually attractive to Everton, one that makes it worth their while to sell. Time is running out: you've already missed the advantage of having both players in pre-season, but now with every passing day Everton are only going to get more reluctant to sell and the fee they'll seek will only get bigger.

All my thoughts are summarised in this post. Glaston wums but this is spot on for me. We've been poor in our transfer dealings.

 

[shaggy]

WUM or not, I agree that we have been inept in the transfer window so far. His WUM isn't working on me like it is on you though, as what he is saying isn't far from the truth tbh so it is hard to get up tight about it.

His points ring true but we all know it's been a disastrous transfer window. It was very smugly written.

 

[The Neviller]

No, you didn't. You've responded instead with two (and now three) posts about me as a poster and have failed to address a single one of the points I made.

You seem to treat anything that's remotely critical of United as either a wind-up (if it's from an opposition fan) or an act of disloyalty or heresy (if it comes from a United fan). Most of the time when I see your posts you're tangling with other United fans because they've dared to say something that doesn't toe the party-line.

What is there to respond to in your post, other than that its another post slating United by a poster with a history of making wumming comments, and being banned from areas within the forum for doing it. This season you've just decided to do it in the transfer forum.

You're a clever guy, Glaston, who tries to wrap his little digs up in reasonable sounding posts, but the fact you've spent the summer in every United transfer related thread making the same posts with the same digs in them show exactly what you're at. You're looking for bites. Luckily you've chosen a summer where many of our fans have had the head staggers, so you'll get plenty of "Good post Glaston, I agree with that" comments, when the truth is you probably should have just been told to feck off like you would have been any other summer.

 

[acnumber9]

Because they don't have to. Jesus you're crying over nothing here, they felt it was derisory and they said so it's not the end of the world is it.

And by not doing so they've been dicks. Could just have easily told Utd it was derisory instead of dragging it out in public.