Get real with some of thoseFantasy Tournament: World Cup All-Time All-Stars
- Thread starter Polaroid
- Start date
Get real with some of thoseThat is insane - literally insane
Edit - I thought you were saying those players were better than Baggio. It's still not true that 80% of those are as good as him, but its not as ridiculous as saying they are better
So Baggio is in a tier above>Fontaine, Puskas, Romario, Rossi, Schillaci, Rivaldo, Kocsis and so on?
Like I said Baggio is not at the bottom of that tier behind the legends but neither is he on top. His World Cup was not his all-time peak in my eyes Romario was the better striker in '94.
Baggio was the star man for me at the 94 World Cup, which means i would consider him very highly in the context of this draft. Fully deserving of a place in the final.
If Annah considers him a weakness then so too is his very own starter Stoitchkov i guess.
If Annah considers him a weakness then so too is his very own starter Stoitchkov i guess.
Baggio is a weakness in comparison to the other strikers - Pele, Eusebio, Ronaldo, Cruyff, Müller. Don't you agree he is the weakest striker left in the draft?
There were not a lot of quality out wide in this draft so the competition is a lot easier. He is still worse than Jairzinho/Garrincha/Charlton for example no doubt.
Like I said getting in to a player for player comparison is ridiculous and something I wanted to avoid. Every player has their own playing style like I said, which means that Baggio may be the best player for the role he will play and so on.
Erm no.. Why would you pick the best ones to try and alter what I said? I said that some of those picks were daft, which they were, not that Baggio is better than all of those players.
Of those twenty or so you mentioned Baggio would be in a tier with Puskas, Romario, Fontaine and maybe Kocsis/Rivaldo.
How is he in the same tier as Linekar or Vieri?
Do you consider Linekar to be in the same tier as Puskas? Why?
Agree with this. He's also got that goal in 1990 to add to his portfolio.
I think its quite clear that you massively underrate Baggio. Comparing him to Linekar is a joke, to be honest.
There are not 20 players better than him as you first claimed and I think your attempt at a list proves that.
I agree some of them has to go like Lineker etc, I was just writing down names for discussion in the latter EDIT. Wasn't a thought out attempt to evaluate and rank them.
Like I said some of them, like Puskas, of course deserves to be in the tier above and some most certainly a tier below.
But there are still a lot of players(10-15) who are certainly comfortably around Baggio's level.
I agree he is top class. I don't have an issue with him whatsoever. In fact, when I said Pol could do with having got him and left you Eusebio it was primarily him being better off given his other personnel. You could do with Eusebio's pace, but it is the other striker role I would have tweaked in looking for that.
All true in terms of quality, it's a matter of fit for purpose. I'm not wumming with the Vieri stuff, you seem to have real difficulty differentiating quality and functionality.
The Golden Ball is awarded before the final, that's how Kahn got it despite gifting Ronaldo with that rebound. The penos here had no incidence. That said, I wouldn't have batted an eyelid if he got it instead of Romario. Both performed at top level. In fact, I'd argue Baggio played out of his skin more than Romario whose club form that year was even better.
Last edited:
It is pointless to build discussions on made up quotes. I said there were 20 players in his tier and it ended up being more like 10-15. Is it really such a big deal? Obviously I hadn't sat down and tried to rank the players it was a random figure which ended up being quite near the actual sum.
Wow - never knew that. That is interesting, I wonder why they do it that way.
Was it not awarded at half-time in 2006, hence Zidane getting it rather than Cannavaro?
I said above that I misread you - but to be honest Annah you are continually editing and deleting your posts, it makes it impossible to keep track of what you are saying.
You deleted a post just before, that I replied to and have been editing away throughout this discussion.
Because you misquoted me, then edited your post. I was answering this post and then saw you had edited it and admitted you got it wrong.
So I quoted you after the edit to not be a nitpicking jerk.
Cutch, I don't think Baggio being deserving of a place is the issue. Is him being in a 5-2-1-2 where the 1 is Zico and the other striker is Muller. Theon really could have done with either Ronaldo or Romario there, it would make him far far more potent and it isn't a slight on Baggio but his role in the side.
Also you haven't backed up your 15 players yet - you need to chill out though mate. I said it was fine to criticise my players and I don't have a problem with it (unlike you who got very annoyed), but I just wanted you to back it up!
I don't think there are 15 as good as him. Not sure other people do as well because the list thing wasn't very convincing.
TBH, the only reason Lineker isn't in this is no one in their right midn would aim to play 4-4-2, he was immense in both his World Cups. I don't particularly rate him on his overall play, but you can't just ignore how effective he was.
I disagree, it was actually a conscious to go for Baggio in this formation which was planned from the beginning, precisely because I think it gets the best out of him - he can do both create and attack, he isn't suck in one role and you get the best of both. He's a weird player Baggio in the sense that he isn't a 10 or a 9 - he's a 9.5 and I think in a 3-5-2 as the deeper striker that role is perfect for him.
Baggio in the 4-2-2-2 with Socrates and Zico? Absolutely agree, he's being misused there.
I've never said there are 15 people exactly as good as him, you are for the third time misquoting me in this discussion and then arguing against that misquote.
I said that there are 10-15 players that can be considered in his tier. I also said I don't think he would be at the bottom.
Puskas
Kocsis
Rummenigge
Rivaldo
Rossi
Schilachi
Romario
Piola
Leonidas
Walter
Stabile
Vava
Fontaine
Possibly: Seeler, Albert, Ademir, Rahn, Hidegkuti
Lineker was outstanding in '86 and '90. As a pure number 9 there are only a handful who performed better.
Aye, as said before I think only Romario, Puskas and Fontaine had the same impact - I think he was better than Romario in'94 for example, but he isn't as good a player as Puskas.
Just to take the first questionable one of a few - How is Rummenigge as good as Baggio in this draft?
And how would that be different from pre-game? It actually, yet again, proves how deciding it pre-game leaves them with egg all over their face. Kahn and his rebound in 02, Zidane's headbutt... hence it being safer to give it to someone not even involved like Schillacci or Forl'an
(not that they didn't deserve it).This is the fourth time you "misquote" me now it is getting ridiculous.
I've not said each of those is exactly as good as Baggio, I've said they could be considered in the same tier just below the greatest.
If I had said all those players were exactly as good then that would be completely insane would it not? The problem would then not be questioning if Rummenigge and Baggio are exactly as good - but rather how I can think 15 players are exactly as good?
Jesus Christ, stop being retarded.
The point of a tier is that the players are generally on the same level - generally as good as each other.
But seeing as your being so pedantic about it, I'll rephrase - How is Rummenigge at the same or similar level to Baggio in this draft?
Rummenigge had a great World Cup, even slightly injured he had a massive impact on his team and scored 5 goals working around the injury. Showed great work-rate regardless and lead his team to a WC-Final.
Very similar to Baggio? At least in my eyes Rummenigge deserves to be mentioned in the same tier as Baggio. They never really reached the legends but had great performances.
No different, merely an observation my good friend.And how would that be different from pre-game? It actually, yet again, proves how deciding it pre-game leaves them with egg all over their face. Kahn and his rebound in 02, Zidane's headbutt... hence it being safer to give it to someone not even involved like Schillacci or Forl'an
It's quite a catalogue of blunders - Ronaldo's flaccid show in '98, Kahn's spill in '02, Zidane's headbutt in '06.BBC website said:
Great read, pretty hilarious.
Rummenigge wasn't at that level though. I'm not trying to play him down but he was capable of so much more in 1982 and didn't reach the heights of Romario or Baggio in '94.
So you are saying that Rummenigge doesn't deserve being mentioned in the same tier of strikers as Baggio regarding WC peak? Not even as one of the lower in that tier?
Probably we just have different ideas of how similar players has to be in skill-level to be in the same tier. In my eyes if two players have carried/lead their team to a WC final and lost, both scoring the same amount of goals and both were considered among the best players in their WC - then it is fair to consider them in the same tier even if one can be better than the other.
The problem is your #10 likes playing the exact same way and is also very much a 9.5, and used to turn "9" on the exact same side you have Baggio. I've tried to think about it more as a XMAS tree type setup with both him and Zico but it really lacks in width and Muller looks stranded. That's actually what I was getting at with this not looking like Brazil 02 at all, not a single one of the front three are like any of those three.
There's no getting around the importance of having someone pacey up there, just like Tito had Rossi and Vavá so whichever way the other team went about defending one would still cause all sorts of trouble.
That was beautiful to be honest. I didn't think about it until you pointed it out either. Should have been his main selling point and something he prepared for then he would have had me.
The half-time vote really worked in Zidane's favour: after his audacious penalty, before his head-butt.
Possibly?
There's nothing Beckenbauer would relish more than having Uwe Seeler upfront, he really took him under his wing and made his very best to make the kid shine. It's lovely, you actually wonder if Seeler thought "maybe I won't win this one, but this kid will".Possibly?
I love Seeler, he was the polish that really made the great players shine. If a real manager got to do a draft like these I am sure they'd appreciate the Seeler type a lot.
I'd say Kalle was a clearly better player than Baggio who was unlucky not to be able to play at his peak powers, yet still managed to be influential. Baggio playing at his peak powers managed, not a more influential role, but... errr... a more single-handed one, if that makes any sense.
Wouldn't put Kalle in a lower tier myself, no.
Nice point on Zico, that is true.
I don't think it changes it too much, he can still get forward and I've said in the games one of the elements I like is the potential for interchange and interplay between those two. Also Zico was definitely still a 10 - I can't remember who it was but in a PM someone actually said to me that they thought Zico was too advanced on my formation graphic and I wasn't getting the most out of him as a midfield playmaker.
I definitely don't think Rummenigge was a better footballer than Baggio, even outside of World Cups. They would be in the same tier though, but to say he is clearly better is way off IMO.
In World Cups I think its clearer cut and Baggio was certainly better, as was Romario.
If you look up my draft plan in the last page or so, I was happy taking Seeler all the way to a final and thought it much more pressing to get the defence sorted and people like Matthaus/Falcao/Diego/Pelé. It wa sbound to happen that Ronaldo/Romario/Eusebio showed up, but I was fine sticking with him. Cracking little player.