Fantasy Tournament: World Cup All-Time All-Stars

[Moby]

I'm not sure why you keep going with this. I just said despite you laughing at me saying I didn't care, that I didn't. That's it, you posted a LOL sign and I understand where you were coming from and don't have an issue with it at all.

Re: the discussions. I'm not saying there's agenda involved, just observing how easy it is to put together a side requiring less explaining, leaving people to imagine it working, and letting them argue your case while you sit back. I didn't see a single one of you out there questioning anything about Theon, when there were obvious and very clear shortcomings in his side. Again, not agenda, just that by playing the less orthodox way you end up arguing its case and everyone takes the alternative stance rather than trying to explore the upsides together, etc.

Take this for instance, it didn't get a single comment yet was a post well worth discussing, don't you think? (particularly considering how much work it takes! )

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/wc-all-time-all-stars-qf4-anto-vs-theon.383068/page-3#post-14928315

Yeah I know you told me, I am not saying I am right or about it, it's what I feel. Fair enough if it is not the case.

I told Theon in the thread what I didn't like about his team.

And anyway, you don't leave much to be added by others for your team, that also plays a big part.

 

[antohan]

That wasn't even directed at you.

I was telling Annah why I think that Ronaldo being preferred over him doesn't mean he's underrated. How was he overlooked? I picked him in second round and get plenty of kudos for it. You can start a thread right now about the best strikers of all time and it will clear it all up in a few minutes.

I picked him at 16th in the reinforcement round and he may well have gone a lot longer. I couldn't fecking believe he was still knocking around, particularly with certain sides clearly needing him. He was as good as Emile Heskey on Friday with Kohler single-handedly dealing with Ghiggia behind Carlos' back (or beating him) while man-marking him, while Scirea was going walkabout supporting the midfield. There were bound to be many chances for him, no? Nope.

Did anyone pick him now? Nope (winner has an impact there though, I'm aware, seeing as you are all over-stuffed with them).

 

[antohan]

True, never understood why. He certainly has the titles to back it up, not only with Milan, but also the Euro win in '88 with the nationalteam.

That's what World Cups do for a player's rep. I'm pretty sure 70%+ of those on here never saw him in his pomp, week in, week out. Clips are poor substitutes for that.

 

[antohan]

And anyway, you don't leave much to be added by others for your team, that also plays a big part.

So those two images told you nothing about one side stretching play along and across the pitch while another needed to untangle a deep-lying (forced by the high line) central clusterfeck? Nah, Beckenabuer's reading of the game would take care of it all.

 

[Moby]

I picked him at 16th in the reinforcement round and he may well have gone a lot longer. I couldn't fecking believe he was still knocking around, particularly with certain sides clearly needing him. He was as good as Emile Heskey on Friday with Kohler single-handedly dealing with Ghiggia behind Carlos' back (or beating him) while man-marking him, while Scirea was going walkabout supporting the midfield. There were bound to be many chances for him, no? Nope.

Did anyone pick him now? Nope (winner has an impact there though, I'm aware, seeing as you are all over-stuffed with them).

The restrictions stopped most of them from picking him. You had truckloads of pre 70 players and non winners as well so it was easy for you to fit him.

 

[Moby]

So those two images told you nothing about one side stretching play along and across the pitch while another needed to untangle a deep-lying (forced by the high line) central clusterfeck? Nah, Beckenabuer's reading of the game would take care of it all.

No comments. He's our next opponent.

 

[Balu]

Take this for instance, it didn't get a single comment yet was a post well worth discussing, don't you think? (particularly considering how much work it takes! )

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/wc-all-time-all-stars-qf4-anto-vs-theon.383068/page-3#post-14928315

I actually was pretty annoyed at that point, because every post of yours ended with some frustrated comment full of sarcasm and that really took the fun out of the discussion for me . Would certainly have commented otherwise, because I actually thought those two formations were interesting to continue the discussion.

For example, all from your 5 or 6 posts prior to the one with the two formations.

(...)
It's not outlandish. Then by the time they worked out how to play against it and exploit it... they would be playing against a 4-2-3-1. I understand though, it's more pragmatic to assume boring football will keep a clean sheet all game and eventually nick a goal. That's why I chose to go with this homage theme, because that logic is what has made the World Cup boring as feck.

(...)

Incredible really, sounds like we are all very happy to say X, Y or Z are great but when it comes to the crunch they all turn to shit and are easy to handle.

(...)
Nope, none, but I may as well have Ashley Young there.

Puskas, Romario, Ghiggia, Czibor, Laudrup, Neeskens... none of them can beat a man or take them out through their movement and receiving unmarked. Nope, all mugs.

Maybe I'm just too sensitive to handle you in a football fantasy fight, sorry .

 

[antohan]

The restrictions stopped most of them from picking him. You had truckloads of pre 70 players and non winners as well so it was easy for you to fit him.

I'm aware, but it's topical on the Ronaldo-Romario thing. Both post-72, both SAM, both winners. Sure, most would probably pick Ronaldo first, but once not available won't consider Romario. For Ronaldo they would tear up the side to try fit him in. Romario? No chance, only if he fits. That's my point, the difference between them shouldn't prompt such completely different reactions... except of course if it boils down to vote-winning kudos, which takes us back to square one: why?

 

[antohan]

Maybe I'm just too sensitive to handle you in a football fantasy fight, sorry .

Why was it a fight though? The rival manager was nowhere to be seen yet all the votes and comments where a one-sided avalanche. Of course it's frustrating.

From the off, at least in my mind, that was the game being played. I'm aware you (and most) had voted by then, and I knew it was over anyway. I didn't expect it to be a game-changer, was just fed up at hearing the same tripe over and over again.

I guess it was unfortunate I couldn't be around enough in the early stages to make that clear earlier and was just reduced to replying to old posts with the voting already done and dusted.

 

[Annahnomoss]

I think Anto brings up a good point in that often it is better to not describe a particular role or style of players because the voters/managers are very eager to then pick a hole in the balloon. If you however just go "I have Maradona hurr durr he does what he does" people imagine their own favorite Maradona plays and reasons he is going to win it.

I've always held it against a manager if he doesn't make descriptive roles of his team and players. If someone just shoves 11 players on the pitch there will have to be an amazing skill difference to even bother voting for him then.

But most voters and managers are of the opposite opinion, the less the manager says the more cred he gets because at least he hasn't disagreed with your opinion.

 

[Moby]

I'm aware, but it's topical on the Ronaldo-Romario thing. Both post-72, both SAM, both winners. Sure, most would probably pick Ronaldo first, but once not available won't consider Romario. For Ronaldo they would tear up the side to try fit him in. Romario? No chance, only if he fits. That's my point, the difference between them shouldn't prompt such completely different reactions... except of course if it boils down to vote-winning kudos, which takes us back to square one: why?

It doesn't, really. As I said Romario isn't underrated at all but he's not at the level of Ronaldo, for me. You yourself have explained why Ronaldo is much better to have specially in a hypothetical game.

Romario is hardly underrated. It's only Ronaldo that can comfortably take him out of a discussion (who can he not) but otherwise you won't have people saying he's much below others. Theon considered him while picking Muller but couldn't because of the restrictions. And Muller is one of the greatest himself, WC or not so being considered alongside the likes of Muller, Eusebio et all doesn't make you feel he is rated well?

As I said, you don't need to listen to me. I'm the least knowledgeable around here and I'm not here to tell you of all people how good someone is, just fire up a thread in the forum and see people who have watched him live rate him highly. You won't be disappointed, really.

 

[Balu]

Why was it a fight though? The rival manager was nowhere to be seen yet all the votes and comments where a one-sided avalanche. Of course it's frustrating.

From the off, at least in my mind, that was the game being played. I'm aware you (and most) had voted by then, and I knew it was over anyway. I didn't expect it to be a game-changer, was just fed up at hearing the same tripe over and over again.

I guess it was unfortunate I couldn't be around enough in the early stages to make that clear earlier and was just reduced to replying to old posts with the voting already done and dusted.

It wasn't a fight. I'm sure I wrote quite a few positive comments about your team as well, I went through both teams, played the game out in my head and voted at a time when the game was already decided (10-3 for Theon, if I remember correctly) and I didn't know if you find the time to discuss it further. Then everytime you disagreed with what I wrote you followed it up with sarcasm, at one point I lost interest in explaining myself, that's it.

 

[antohan]

Never mind Balu. It's a pretty pointless discussion.

As said, had we started in time and been able to get everything out there from the off it should have been more even. As it turns out I couldn't, and by the time I could log back on there was this poorly conceived 1-2 which "took out my entire midfield" somehow and the game was already far from any realistic comeback.

I've been there before, making a very damaging comment and completely screwing an absent manager, which is why I try stay well away for a long time and only make a few comments here and there early on. It happens, nothing personal, I know.

 

[Balu]

Never mind Balu. It's a pretty pointless discussion.

As said, had we started in time and been able to get everything out there from the off it should have been more even. As it turns out I couldn't, and by the time I could log back on there was this poorly conceived 1-2 which "took out my entire midfield" somehow and the game was already far from any realistic comeback.

I've been there before, making a very damaging comment and completely screwing an absent manager, which is why I try stay well away for a long time and only make a few comments here and there early on. It happens, nothing personal, I know.

That's actually a fair point that makes sense and explains your frustration, why didn't you say that earlier? I'm pretty sure at the time I wrote that comment, the poll was already heavily against you, so I don't think it was that heavily damaging. I understand how it was over the top though and especially without you being online to comment on it. My bad, sorry.

 

[antohan]

That's actually a fair point that makes sense and explains your frustration, why didn't you say that earlier?

Because I knew you probably didn't mean it that way so thought it was rather pointless to engage in a poor me sympathy-vote seeking discussion (which actually is what you wound up thinking I was doing ).

I'm pretty sure at the time I wrote that comment, the poll was already heavily against you, so I don't think it was that heavily damaging.

No idea, just know what the scoreline was when I logged back on and what I could trace it back to. In any case, if it was already slipping away, you should have done what I often do which is sticking up for the absent manager getting slaughtered! Cue everyone being surprised when I end up voting against him

I understand how it was over the top though and especially without you being online to comment on it. My bad, sorry.

No worries mate, your first draft, it took me more than one to wrap my head around that!

 

[Balu]

These drafts are much more complicated than I thought .

 

[Moby]

I still haven't managed to do it.

 

[antohan]

Speaking of, @Polaroid , I assume we are doing the usual whereby semifinalist votes don't count in any games? That is, semifinalists can't influence the outcome of who they play against. With so few votes floating around you would be tempted to overlook it, but with the aggro going into the semi you wouldn't want a game settled by those votes!

 

[antohan]

These drafts are much more complicated than I thought .

It's an art mate, an ART!

Told you I would share my draftplan once I went out. It's actually not rocket science, just needs a fair bit of time put into thinking things through early on and flexibility along the way:

 

[Balu]

That's not what I meant . I'm quite happy how my team turned out without any plan at all. I struggle more with the politics or whatever you want to call it.

 

[antohan]

Should have shat on Bozsik and picked Matthaus, then get Passarella instead of Figueroa, along with Romario (incredible really). Maradona didn't look like becoming available though so stuck with Bozsik and the Magyars instead of my original plan to get Matthaus or Falcao to strengthen that midfield and make it more "back and forth".

 

[Annahnomoss]

Speaking of, @Polaroid , I assume we are doing the usual whereby semifinalist votes don't count in any games? That is, semifinalists can't influence the outcome of who they play against. With so few votes floating around you would be tempted to overlook it, but with the aggro going into the semi you wouldn't want a game settled by those votes!

This must be the case. Semi-finalists and their assistants can't vote as 2 votes can decide one way or the other.

Even commenting is a bit dirty, but hard to prevent it.

 

[antohan]

That's not what I meant . I'm quite happy how my team turned out without any plan at all. I struggle more with the politics or whatever you want to call it.

I know what you meant, just remembered we had this "this is so complicated" thing going on earlier when discussing draftplans and who certain people usually voted for, etc.

 

[Balu]

It really is .

 

[Moby]

To be fair Balu you couldn't have started with a tougher draft. The restrictions in this one are probably the toughest we have had.

 

[Balu]

To be fair Balu you couldn't have started with a tougher draft. The restrictions in this one are probably the toughest we have had.

But they are brilliant, way better than in the all time draft, imo. For example, I really liked that we had to pick so many old players and were forced to look into earlier world cup tournaments. The restrictions are tough and can drive you crazy, yet they still allow to recreate partnerships or even pick a core of 3 or 4 players from the same team. I really enjoyed planning with the restrictions from the beginning.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Yeah this draft has been perfect with the restrictions. In the all-time drafts and what not every team has so many options every team is perfect even from round 1.

Every team has some clear weaknesses(individual skill-wise) in this draft whether it be Pol's RB, My CB's, Balu's DM's and Theons striker.

It really adds some dimensions to this game and it will not only be about who has the best players - but also who can exploit that hole the best. I am really looking forward to both games and I can't predict a winner in either.

 

[Balu]

Yeah this draft has been perfect with the restrictions. In the all-time drafts and what not every team has so many options every team is perfect even from round 1.

Every team has some clear weaknesses in this draft whether it be Pol's RB, My CB, Balu's DM's and Theons striker.

It really adds some dimensions to this game and it will not only be about who has the best players - but also who can exploit that hole the best. I am really looking forward to both games and I can't predict a winner in either.

Calling Müller and Baggio a weakness, just because Anto believes they lack pace seems a bit harsh .

 

[Annahnomoss]

Calling Müller and Baggio a weakness, just because Anto believes they lack pace seems a bit harsh .

Strikers would be plural, striker is not. In easier drafts the teams would be smacked with Müller quality all over the pitch in a Semi final.

 

[Moby]

Strikers would be plural, striker is not. In easier drafts the teams would be smacked with Müller quality all over the pitch in a Semi final.

Not really. Had him in the last one till the final, he was the one doing the smashing.

What's wrong with Muller?

 

[Annahnomoss]

Not really. Had him in the last one till the final, he was the one doing the smashing.

What's wrong with Muller?

Müller is top class. But Baggio is of course some levels below Cruyff/Ronaldo/Müller/Eusebio which are the remaining strikers. Anyhow it is pointless to continue the discussion as it is unfair on Theon - every team has some players that are severely weaker than the other 3 remaining teams players in that area. So if we want to discuss it lets bring every teams weakness in to the picture - or we leave it!

 

[antohan]

But they are brilliant, way better than in the all time draft, imo. For example, I really liked that we had to pick so many old players and were forced to look into earlier world cup tournaments. The restrictions are tough and can drive you crazy, yet they still allow to recreate partnerships or even pick a core of 3 or 4 players from the same team. I really enjoyed planning with the restrictions from the beginning.

Different targets really. The All-time served its purpose by making people spread their net beyond the usual suspects and get acquainted with really random players and sides. The Decades one then stretched people across time. Yes, there's more room for working on teams functioning, gelling, having a defined style, etc. here, but I don't think this would have been half as good without those two prior ones. I could list a fair few players who would hardly be in the quarters, let alone this semifinal stage, and getting any credit whatsoever.

 

[Balu]

Fair enough, Gio certainly did a great job with Davids, I'll have to thank him for that .

 

[antohan]

Fair enough, Gio certainly did a great job with Davids, I'll have to thank him for that .

Do thank him, it kept costing him dearly to keep banging on about Davids the one man midfield

 

[antohan]

Müller is top class. But Baggio is of course some levels below Cruyff/Ronaldo/Müller/Eusebio which are the remaining strikers.

I don't actually have an issue at all with Baggio as a great player, it's just the context he is playing in that doesn't stack up for me. Zico is doing much of what he can do, while the side is crying out for something different upfront. Forget Romario, I'd play Vieri ahead of him, even when he obviously doesn't have the same standing in the game, let alone relative to the other strikers. You don't even need to agree with Vieri specifically, since both Ronaldo and Romario could have been picked and the winning constraint would have been sorted via Yashin anyway.

 

[Theon]

Christ, my team seems to have took a battering these past few pages - thanks for kicking that off anto

Müller is absolutely top class - there is no doubt and anything else is nonsense. We've said he has been underrated before and itsthe exact same thing again here. He is easily up there with Eusebio and the others that Annah mentioned. The only striker I would consider to be better is Ronaldo, anyother option for striker is on the same level or worse.

Re Baggio - He is probably a tier below legends like Eusebio or Müller, but at a peak level he certainly isn't far off at all. And his World Cup in '94 was outstanding, so in this draft should be rated at his highest. I thought he was better than Romario, for example, and if he had scored that penalty no doubt he would have won the Golden Ball.

 

[Theon]

Forget Romario, I'd play Vieri ahead of him

 

[Annahnomoss]

Christ, my team seems to have took a battering these past few pages - thanks for kicking that off anto

Re Baggio - He is probably a tier below legends like Eusebio or Müller, but at a peak level he certainly isn't far off at all. And his World Cup in '94 was outstanding, so in this draft should be rated at his highest. I thought he was better than Romario, for example, and if he had scored that penalty no doubt he would have won the Golden Ball.

Sorry mate, tried to prevent it the best I could but people kept nitpicking and bringing it up further.

Like you say Baggio is in the tier below the absolute greats. In my eyes this tier consists of around 20 players one can pick to fit the team. Bunch of Golden Ball winners in that tier as well with amazing goal-scoring records.

 

[Theon]

Sorry mate, tried to prevent it the best I could but people kept nitpicking and bringing it up further.

Like you say Baggio is in the tier below the absolute greats. In my eyes this tier consists of around 20 players one can pick to fit the team. Bunch of Golden Ball winners in that tier as well with amazing goal-scoring records.

No worries, I don't mind the discussion at all - I'm very comfortable with my team and Baggio.

Who would the twenty players be? That seems a lot.

 

[Annahnomoss]

No worries, I don't mind the discussion at all - I'm very comfortable with my team and Baggio.

Who would the twenty players be? That seems a lot.

Specifying that this tier can of course be ranked and Baggio would not be at the bottom of it for sure.
Without any order and some may even be contested to be in the tier above this:
Romario
Puskas
Schillaci
Rossi
Piola
Leonidas
Walter
Stabile
Kocsis
Vava
Fontaine
Rivaldo

13 from the top of my head and I am sure there are more up there.

EDIT: Rummenigge, Vieri, Lineker, Seeler, Albert, Ademir, Rahn, Hidegkuti, Bergkamp