Btw. I'm just watching Jairzinho's highlights against Italy, @Annahnomoss . I really think Facchetti needs some help in the game and '70 clearly was Facchetti's peak tournament, no excuses there.
Well a winger v full-back is often a straight one-on-one, whereas a striker grabbing a goal is often the product of dominance or a mismatch elsewhere on the park.
Yes, but it ignores everything that happens before and after. Send Garrincha in 10 one-on-ones against Maldini and if he gets through 2 or 3 times, it's still a good way to create something. Play on the counter with Ronaldo leading the line and you hear people say, he's good for 2 or 3 goals, doesn't matter if he's playing against Beckenbauer or Figueroa and that it's difficult for the midfielders to get a good pass off and that he still needs to beat the offside trap and control the ball and score. As deadly as Eusebio or Ronaldo were, it's really strange how many goals people see them scoring against some of the best defenders of all time.
Have to agree with Gio here. Winger are easier to block out of the game which is why Messi moved to become a striker. Basically takes 4 people creating a tight box to control Messi from scoring.
This is because centrally you have more dangerous area to move too. On the wing it is basically a 1 vs 1 which has to lead to something.
I'd say Messi in a 1vs1 on the wing is just as unstoppable as Messi 1vs2 in the central area. Messi moved into the middle, because he gained more influence on the game and played closer to goal because he's easily the best finisher in Barca's team.
Skinning a defender is obviously harder than gaining a couple of inches on a defender and getting on the end of a cross for a goal. Taking Theon's example earlier, it's not as if people thought Eusebio would skin Kohler and Beckenbauer, more that he might got on the end of something in the box or as a result of, for instance, Lato getting beyond Bobby Carlos.
Just to be clear, I'm not saying that it isn't more likely for Ronaldo to score on the counter than for Garrincha to create something against Maldini, I of course agree with that. I just have the impression that the view on both is really extreme, while the reality isn't as clear cut, that was my point.
/edit:
To bring some hypothetical numbers in the discussion:
I'd say peak Garrincha against peak Maldini could still create around 0.3 goals/assists per game while Ronaldo could score against a defense around Beckenbauer 0.5 goals per game.
The impression I have is that people assume Garrincha could create nothing, while Ronaldo could score 2.
I hope that makes sense? I'm happy to hear that my impression is completely wrong, though.
I do agree. Voters tend to analyse bits of the game in isolation to hunt out the mismatches, whereas a manager might get away with Danny Rose up against Garrincha, if the supply to Garrincha is completely cut and Rose was adequately backed up.
Does Pele have 5 or 6? I am getting different numbers depending on the sources. Espn tells me this "The king of soccer was true to his word during the three-week competition, scoring four goals and handing out six assists."
Likewise half-drunk, I'd just rattled off a team combining France's WC winning defence, Zidane as playmaker, and 4 Hungarians, whilst completely forgetting about the continent restriction. Bollocks!
And any keeper that fits...I have no idea how you lads have drafted in this and retained your sanity. My brain's about to explode after that, and there's a decent chance I've messed up on a restriction anyway!
Cheers mate! Its given me even more respect for what you lads have put together though. I didn't quite realise how hard the restrictions made it until I tried to put together a team myself!
Cheers mate! Its given me even more respect for what you lads have put together though. I didn't quite realise how hard the restrictions made it until I tried to put together a team myself!
Imagine adding the draft-order in to the mix as well. There may be 4 CB's left that suit you perfectly but then the 4 people before you all pick them and instantly you have a team with flaws.
It is why every team as some very obvious flaws left that wouldn't be there if the restrictions were less mean.
It is fun though as it becomes a lot more about tactics and how to make the best of the situation.
Thanks Absolute, I have amended the date for Balu and Annah as per their request. I can set up their match, would apreciate your help with mine and Theon's. No worries if you are caught up elsewhere on the day itself, we will get around it by re-sending it to whoever is around at that time. Thank you very much.
Oh yeah, he's a great player no question but I just thought you needed a right back more. I guess he'll go left back with Maldini moving to central defence? It's a fair move and does make you stronger, but I just thought Cohen would be the one getting upgraded.
I will throw it out there for anyone to guess my starting line-up
The one that guessed correctly first gets an honourary place in the dugout alongside me and Aldo LOL
GK
Maspoli
Gregg
D
Maldini
Ferdinand
Cohen
Moore
Santamaria
Krol
M
Maradona
Breitner
Zizinho
Boniek
Ocwirk
Zito
Rivaldo
Garrincha
In the context of this draft it's only fair that Zanetti doesn't merit the same kudos as others. But generally I'd say he's a wee bit under-rated amongst the public. For me Zanetti, Thuram and Cafu are all on the same level and as good as I've seen from right-backs in any era. But it's probably accurate to say Aldo that Cafu and Thuram are more regularly regarded as "best of their generation" to a greater extent than Zanetti. In that sense and as much as he is well respected amongst ourselves, he deserves a bit more regard for his his general reputation. I suspect Cafu and Thuram's greater World Cup impact has much to do with that.
Agreed. I was saying generally, of course in this draft he wouldn't be weighed highly, but overall he's still not seen as one of the best of all time which I really think he is.
How many wide players got the better of him in big games? Very few, if any. People see Thuram and think he would shut out any threat, yes he was defensively ace but I always think his best was as a CB in a 3 man backline than a rightback. Zanetti is as good as any other fullback defensively, his anticipation with the pace and strength he has is absolutely brilliant.
And yeah the last part is true. Zanetti didn't win anything at national team level, but I cannot really think of much of a reason to say someone like Cafu is definitely better than Pupi. In fact if I have to pick one I would always go with Pupi. The way he has adapted to the game late into his career and still hardly let his performances dip is simply outstanding. At almost 37 years of age he was a key part of Inter when they won the CL. Was really happy to see him finally lift that trophy.
And I gave you exactly what sort of grief? You just sat back and let others do the talking for you. Your main posts are actually rejecting feedback, and valid one at that.
Yes, but it ignores everything that happens before and after. Send Garrincha in 10 one-on-ones against Maldini and if he gets through 2 or 3 times, it's still a good way to create something. Play on the counter with Ronaldo leading the line and you hear people say, he's good for 2 or 3 goals, doesn't matter if he's playing against Beckenbauer or Figueroa and that it's difficult for the midfielders to get a good pass off and that he still needs to beat the offside trap and control the ball and score. As deadly as Eusebio or Ronaldo were, it's really strange how many goals people see them scoring against some of the best defenders of all time.
Ghiggia and Czibor had countless one on ones on fullbacks who weren't Maldini standard yet got nothing. Romario and Puskas apparently also couldn't get anything, while Muller sprinting from midfield was somehow deadly. Mentalists. yourself included, clearly ;o)
BTW Pol, wouldn't mind posting the polls. I should be around most of the time bar Tuesday 5-8pm and Wednesday 10am-3pm. The ideas thrown around are pretty good.
RE: Picking-gate, don't get what the big deal is, particularly when Theon needed other players far more than Pelé (surely?).
Figueroa is upset to be forced to play with that shower
Yes, but it ignores everything that happens before and after. Send Garrincha in 10 one-on-ones against Maldini and if he gets through 2 or 3 times, it's still a good way to create something. Play on the counter with Ronaldo leading the line and you hear people say, he's good for 2 or 3 goals, doesn't matter if he's playing against Beckenbauer or Figueroa and that it's difficult for the midfielders to get a good pass off and that he still needs to beat the offside trap and control the ball and score. As deadly as Eusebio or Ronaldo were, it's really strange how many goals people see them scoring against some of the best defenders of all time.
I won't say much about Eusebio but Ronaldo at his peak was simply unstoppable. A reason for him being so great is that he tormented the very best of defenders. Nesta, Cannavaro, Thuram, you name it. Neither had an answer to him.
You can have him top defenders and all but a player like Ronaldo in his Barca form is virtually unstoppable, that is how high I rate him. Again not saying no one ever kept a clean sheet against him but when you consider a hypothetical contest it is tough to think of a strategy to curb him. That large frame running at you at that pace with that control and shooting ability is pretty much a nightmare for any defender. And then he used to shoot from those insane angles and areas. You just cannot plan on how to deal with him.
I will throw it out there for anyone to guess my starting line-up
The one that guessed correctly first gets an honourary place in the dugout alongside me and Aldo LOL
GK
Maspoli
Gregg
D
Maldini
Ferdinand
Cohen
Moore
Santamaria
Krol
M
Maradona
Breitner
Zizinho
Boniek
Ocwirk
Zito
Rivaldo
Garrincha
Did he ever fill in there at a WC? In any case, even out of position Maldini can handle Carlos, no doubt about that.
Cue Theon and Snow spontaneously combusting.
BTW Pol, wouldn't mind posting the polls. I should be around most of the time bar Tuesday 5-8pm and Wednesday 10am-3pm. The ideas thrown around are pretty good.
That would be great, thank you for offering Anto, appreciate that. It is best for both polls to be set up by the same person for the same consistency in format.
I won't say much about Eusebio but Ronaldo at his peak was simply unstoppable. A reason for him being so great is that he tormented the very best of defenders. Nesta, Cannavaro, Thuram, you name it. Neither had an answer to him.
You can have him top defenders and all but a player like Ronaldo in his Barca form is virtually unstoppable, that is how high I rate him. Again not saying no one ever kept a clean sheet against him but when you consider a hypothetical contest it is tough to think of a strategy to curb him. That large frame running at you at that pace with that control and shooting ability is pretty much a nightmare for any defender. And then he used to shoot from those insane angles and areas. You just cannot plan on how to deal with him.
Ghiggia and Czibor had countless one on ones on fullbacks who weren't Maldini standard yet got nothing. Romario and Puskas apparently also couldn't get anything, while Muller sprinting from midfield was somehow deadly. Mentalists. yourself included, clearly ;o)
Can you stop George Best by putting some great fullback? Not a way in hell. The best you can say is you will curb his influence somewhat, which is true, as compared to an ordinary fullback but the day Bestie brings his A game to the field it won't matter if he skins you the first time or after 5 tries, he will do it.
It should be even more for wingers as they are in 1v1 more often than forwards and in a lot more space hence more of a chance of them getting the upper hand in a huge battle than a forward. Bestie is who I consider the best winger of all time so the example doesn't apply to all wingers but yes most top tier ones.
I'd usually disagree but after watching Ronaldo it is hard to say what Aldo is saying is wrong. Even when they are three defenders against him he manages to get the best of the situation.
I refuse to call him 'fat'. Never understood why people can't call him Brazilian Ronaldo, or just accept that he's the one and only Ronaldo and C. Ronaldo needs an additional name.
I still believe his peak was his pre-injury form at Inter, even though Bierhoff scored more goals that season. He was so much more than a striker, he was more a false 9 than Messi in the last 2 years. It was just brilliant to watch, how he as a striker still connected all the attackers in the team.
A few more years in that form and he would be named in the same tier as Pele and Maradona, imo.
I refuse to call him 'fat'. Never understood why people can't call him Brazilian Ronaldo, or just accept that he's the one and only Ronaldo and C. Ronaldo needs an additional name.
I still believe his peak was his pre-injury form at Inter, even though Bierhoff scored more goals that season. He was so much more than a striker, he was more a false 9 than Messi in the last 2 years. It was just brilliant to watch, how he as a striker still connected all the attackers in the team.
A few more years in that form and he would be named in the same tier as Pele and Maradona, imo.
No doubt about that. It was a sad moment when he had to change style to just be a goalscorer after the injury.
In Barcelona/Inter between '96-'99 he was more of a free-forward who provided as many assists as goals. He was one of the best players of all-time during this phase and was unstoppable.
After the injuries he became "the best striker in the world" only.
and '70 clearly was Facchetti's peak tournament, no excuses there.
