Perryn and his wife, and Siuan and her husband (the general whom name I forgot) were the only somehow mature relationships. I kind of liked Mat-Tuan (mostly cause they were in a competition on whom was crazier) but it was very unbelievable relationship. The other sucked, especially Rand's foursome.
Books Fantasy Reads
- Thread starter Alock1
- Start date
Harsh. Neither Malazan nor Black Company not LotR have sex appeal either.
And Denna in kingkiller is rather a pointless character. She neither influences the story nor Kvothe as a person. Take her out and you wouldn't even notice the difference overall.
On the contrary, his obsession with her is pretty much pivotal to the story and may explain his ruin in Book 3.
LotR didnt make you to tear your hairs out with frustration about female character. Eowyn getting together with Faramir was ham-fisted, but her character on the whole is believable, and Arwen or Galadriel have the excuse of being elvish.
Denna is the single worst character in the Kingkiller. She's an annoying bitch for the entirety of the first two books.
If being pivotal to the story is the yardstick then Wheel of time shits on most fantasy books from a significant height.
If being pivotal to the story is the yardstick then Wheel of time shits on most fantasy books from a significant height.
You're mad dude? The entire story (especially the first book) makes no sense without her. Unlike WoT/ASOIAF/LotR, Kingkiller isn't an epic fantasy. It is the story of Kvothe, and there are two main things in Kvothe's life: the revenge against Chandrian and his obsession with Denna. Take out Denna from the books, and you lose half of the story.
The second book deviates from the formula and Kvothe becomes a porn star but the second book wasn't even that great.
...
In Black Company, the relation between Croaker and Lady is one of the central things.
Rothfuss wrote her as the archetypal femme fatale. She is there to torment and toy with Kvothe, it'd be a failure on his part if we don't find her annoying. Egwene, Nynaeve or Elayne on the other hand....
And I never knocked WoT for its plot. My IGN in most MMO/RPG games is LTT ffs
Nice username change.
The female characters in LotR were awful on the whole. The only excuse is the books were written in a time when gender roles were defined culturally very differently. All of the women are praised mainly for being of fair complexion with little else to recommend them. The male characters are awed by their beauty and naught else. The only woman who has any character is Eowyn who by the end of the series gives up her warrior spirit and returns to the traditional fold to essentially be a home-maker. If the series was written today people would be out with pitchforks.
Ye, but it's meant to follow the traditional princess in a castle route is it not? Aragorn is the lost prince who would win his lady's heart against an evil Overlord. The books basically ended with a big wedding ffs
Misogyny isn't the only problem with Tolkien's writings either. In both Silmarillion and LotR, the 'born of nobler stock' trope is prevalent. Aragorn is awesome because, well, he was born that way (mostly).
I must be the only one who liked Egwene. She is annoying and goes full Aes Sedai (no-one should ever go full Aes Sedai), but somehow I still liked it, and the attack on the Black Tower were probably my favorite part of the saga (together with the ending of the fifth book), where she ruled the show. And she was great in the final book too.Rothfuss wrote her as the archetypal femme fatale. She is there to torment and toy with Kvothe, it'd be a failure on his part if we don't find her annoying. Egwene, Nynaeve or Elayne on the other hand....
And I never knocked WoT for its plot. My IGN in most MMO/RPG games is LTT ffs
Elayne started interesting, a bit like a rogue princess but with every book she became more annoying and more stupid.
Nynaeve was terrible for the first half of the saga, and alright in the second half when the author somehow mistook her character with that of Moiraine.
For all the bad character WoT has, Moiraine is my favorite character in the fantasy genre.
Impossible to disagree with this.Ye, but it's meant to follow the traditional princess in a castle route is it not? Aragorn is the lost prince who would win his lady's heart against an evil Overlord. The books basically ended with a big wedding ffs
Misogyny isn't the only problem with Tolkien's writings either. In both Silmarillion and LotR, the 'born of nobler stock' trope is prevalent. Aragorn is awesome because, well, he was born that way (mostly).
The standards are much higher nowadays though (especially after ASOIAF who did a fantastic job in the characters). Most of authors in the genre (bar Sanderson until Stormlight) take good care of their characters. Wheel of Time started when it was cool to have shit characters.
I'm probably one of the exceptions in that I utterly loathe the character cast of ASOIAF. I mean, I don't deny they are very realistic for the setting, I just couldn't care less about them. If the Others came in and wiped them all out of existence I wouldn't shed a single tear.
I very much doubt that. The constant hinting towards her troubled past suggests she's meant to come across as sympathetic and that we're supposed to root for her and Kvothe even though everyone who ends up reading the book finds her a complete bitch. Aside from when Kvothe's banging the fairy parts with her are the most annoying and boring in the book.
Women are very powerful in WoT which is party the reason why they across as annoying. Albeit, I had no issues with most of them except Elayne and Perrin's wife who's name I can't remember.
Cheers
Yeah, the nobler born thing is an affliction that continues to influence a lot of fantasy literature. I love Tolkien for basically inventing the fantasy genre but I really wish it hadn't taken so many decades for following writers to come out of his shadow.Ye, but it's meant to follow the traditional princess in a castle route is it not? Aragorn is the lost prince who would win his lady's heart against an evil Overlord. The books basically ended with a big wedding ffs
Misogyny isn't the only problem with Tolkien's writings either. In both Silmarillion and LotR, the 'born of nobler stock' trope is prevalent. Aragorn is awesome because, well, he was born that way (mostly).
Fortunately it is changing though. The new generation of authors (Rothfuss, Abercrombie, Sanderson, Abraham and so on) don't seem to give a shit about the noble blood. Abercrombie went to the extreme of (First Law spoiler):
The chosen king with noble blood, turned out to be a whore's son whom was bought for 6 mark from a wizard. To me that was the ultimate 'feck the royalty concept' from Abercrombie.
The reply was in context to IBs post on lack of 'sex appeal'. Lady/Croaker was central but didn't have sex appeal either. None of the fantasy books apart from GoT scores high in this context.
As to Denna, not disputing she is important to Kvothe...but the fact is she is a side story. Vast swathes of plot moves by without her making an appearance. The University years in Book 1, the Mayer years and trip to Ademre in Book 2...major chunks of plot writing have nothing to do with Denna. She just appears in intervals, Kvothe chases, she plays coy, disappears...rinse and repeat. It's just a drag as it's written now. We know Kvothe likes her and will chase after here early in Book 1...and pretty much hasn't progressed past that till end of Book 2. Maybe Book 3 will change my view, but as of now she's pretty much insignificant character.
Edit: The part where they go chasing the "dragon" is the only segment that was actually quasi-relevant.
She's just archetypical girlfriend. Girl playing coy boy chasing is standard fare in any romance writing. Nothing femme fatale about that. Maybe in Book 3, but not now.
Moiraine, Siuan are written better than the rest. Morgase is decently written too, though not a main character.
I love Moiraine and Siuan's relationship in New Spring. They were both among my favourite characters of the series.
I actually like most of the female characters in WoT, except for Faile who I despised. I also found Suroth/Elaida/Sevanna too similar, felt like the same template being used again and again. The female Forsaken are far more interesting than the men overall too, with Mesaana, Graendal, Semirhage, Lanfear, and Moghedien all have completely different personalities. On the other hand Be'lal, Sammael and Demandred all had the same motivation (envy of Lews Therin) and Rahvin + Balthamel were basically skirt chasers.
There is nothing with royalty or nobility provided it's written well.
You'd fail-e terribly in a WOT triviaI very much doubt that. The constant hinting towards her troubled past suggests she's meant to come across as sympathetic and that we're supposed to root for her and Kvothe even though everyone who ends up reading the book finds her a complete bitch. Aside from when Kvothe's banging the fairy parts with her are the most annoying and boring in the book.
Women are very powerful in WoT which is party the reason why they across as annoying. Albeit, I had no issues with most of them except Elayne and Perrin's wife who's name I can't remember.
Cheers
Yeah, the bad not Forskaken girls were all very similar to each other. And relatively stupid too, with Elaida being the most stupid of them all.
I think that Demandred was a very interesting character and should have given more time in the books. He was the anti-LTT, and there was the nice theory that he was life a safecheck from the universe in case Rand turns evil, then Demandred would be the humanity's last hope (he had the largest army) cause he was always going to go against LLT. Ishamael/Moridin was obviously a very nicely written character, but as you said the other male Forsaken were pointless, with the female ones being quite interesting.
That's an interesting idea about Demandred. Yeah, he was definitely better than Be'lal and Sammael who could probably have been cut to give Demandred more space to shine. The setup in the last book with him believing he had subverted a prophecy meant for LTT when it was about him all along was poignant.
Ishamael was an excellent character, a really good representation of nihilism taken to the extreme. I kinda liked Asmodean too, because he was so weak and thus so very different. He was the runt of the litter. Aginor's backstory of having created the Trollocs and (unintentionally) the Myrddraal plus other Shadowspan was interesting but the character itself was very plain. Would have been cooler if he had invented something new instead of being a washed up has been resting on his laurels.
I had troubling believing how stupid Elaida was but some modern politicians have made me rethink my skepticism.
I liked Denna a lot,
her appearances and their relevance to the plot never seemed in doubt to me.
It always seemed like there was much more going on with her than there seemed.
Whether it was being the lovelace heir, or maybe a denner resin addict or one of the Chandrian or in league with them in some manner
or all of the above.
And i just liked her in general basically.
her appearances and their relevance to the plot never seemed in doubt to me.
It always seemed like there was much more going on with her than there seemed.
Whether it was being the lovelace heir, or maybe a denner resin addict or one of the Chandrian or in league with them in some manner
or all of the above.
And i just liked her in general basically.
Forgot about Asmodean. He was a good character, and a shame that he was killed that early.
Nah, she's even more stupid than Donald Trump. I wonder if she has woken up yet.
Warbreaker - Gosh, this was awful. Arguably the worst piece of shit I have ever read (and I have read Queen of Fire from Anthony Ryan). Terrible writing (like real terrible even for pre-Stormlight Sanderson's standards), the most unfunny humor I have ever seen, and absolutely no redeeming quality.
And how on Earth, 'certain parts of her anatomy' for 'her tits' passed an editor?
Rating: -infinite out of 5
And how on Earth, 'certain parts of her anatomy' for 'her tits' passed an editor?
Rating: -infinite out of 5
Bit late on the top sagas list, but I'll jump in now:
1) First Law Trilogy(and stand alone books.)
2) A Song of Ice and Fire
3) Night Angel Trilogy
4) Wheel of Time(only about 5 books in, loving it but taking a long break to avoid burn out.)
5) Drenai
6) Witcher
I've abandoned Kings of the Wylde due to it being a bit cack and heavy handed. Started The Lies of Locke Lamora, which I've not really had a whole lot of time to read, but am really liking. It's not actually the kind of fantasy book I'd normally go for, but it's well written and has a lot of character. Very enjoyable so far.
Read The Witcher volume 3 graphic novel, it's pretty good, but I thought the first two were better. Starts off really good, but then loses it's way a bit. A fun read though.
1) First Law Trilogy(and stand alone books.)
2) A Song of Ice and Fire
3) Night Angel Trilogy
4) Wheel of Time(only about 5 books in, loving it but taking a long break to avoid burn out.)
5) Drenai
6) Witcher
I've abandoned Kings of the Wylde due to it being a bit cack and heavy handed. Started The Lies of Locke Lamora, which I've not really had a whole lot of time to read, but am really liking. It's not actually the kind of fantasy book I'd normally go for, but it's well written and has a lot of character. Very enjoyable so far.
Read The Witcher volume 3 graphic novel, it's pretty good, but I thought the first two were better. Starts off really good, but then loses it's way a bit. A fun read though.
I came here to post exactly this and Revan beat me to it.
.
His backstory is the most interesting of all. He was rumoured to be as brilliant as Lews Therin and was driven to envy when he had to play second fiddle to LT. That story could be worth another set of books I suppose.
Going by thread in General, if you could pick 5 fantasy book characters for a dinner/drink, who would you choose?
1. Quick Ben (Malazan)
2. Matrim Cauthon (WoT)
3. Bilbo Baggins (LotR)
4. Master Elodin (Kingkiller)
5. TBC
2. Matrim Cauthon (WoT)
3. Bilbo Baggins (LotR)
4. Master Elodin (Kingkiller)
5. TBC
Nah. In fact (not rumour), he was a tad less brilliant, a tad less powerful in the OP, a tad less accomplished, ..., a tad less everything than Lews Therin
His backstory is the most interesting of all. He was rumoured to be as brilliant as Lews Therin and was driven to envy when he had to play second fiddle to LT. That story could be worth another set of books I suppose.
On the criticism of the WoT non-forsaken female characters. I get the impression (from a couple of decades spent on WoT message boards) that a significant portion of the fans who can't stand The Supergirls (Egwene, Nynaeve, Elaine, Aviendha, Min) and the Aes Sedai (Elaida, Siuan, the Sitters, and the rest) are men. What we need to remember is that it was men who broke the world 3000 years ago and brought an end to the Age of Legends, and it was the women who led the world out of the darkness and currently hold most of the power in the world. The women have, essentially, been the top dogs in the world for 3000 years. Is it remarkable that, under those circumstances, most of the women we meet in the story will act arrogantly and dismissively towards the men? Look at our society where men have historically been dominant and how men have historically acted towards women! I think Jordan's women characters fit the world he created, and when we are not looking at his women through our own gender biases, would understand why they behave as they do.
at the Phoenix Inn in Darujhistan
Bloodraven (ASoIF)
Dworkin (Amber)
Erzebet (Rise and Fall of DODO)
Absolutely. 100% agreed. Made the same point a while back.
I agree, that's how the book started especially Nynaeve and Egwene. It was a bit annoying and I even posted the same here about it but I don't think that's how it finished. THe changes were apparent from about the 4th book. I thought that was the whole point of the series? Balance. Men and Women, Saidar and Saidin working together for the greater good. We start the series where men who could channel are frowned upon by Aes Sedai and absolutely despised by the Red Ajah. We ended it with a Red Sister falling in love with an Ashaman. Nynaeve who seemed to treat all men with contempt was primarily responsible for Lan raising the Golden Crane. Perrin and Mat, who were utterly clueless ended the series by working together with their wives. Moirriane dropped her Aes Sedai ways to guide Rand on the right path. That was the whole point of Callandor to the story. As an angreal it was useless. Hell, the most effective of the forsaken in Demandred was the only one who seemed to feel any kind of genuine affection for a women (that Sharan women). The world is better off when men and women work together. When they didn't, they broke the world and tainted Saidin. When they did work together, they cleansed Saidin and sealed the Dark one again.
Also, one of the main reasons for the mistrust between the sexes according to my interpration of the series is that taint of Saidin. That lead to all the power being in the hands of the women. The White Tower ruled the world in all but name. Aiel are basically ruled by the Wise Women, the Seanchan by an Empress, the best known Monarch in the series (Morgase) also a women. It imbalanced things too much and sowed the seeds for the mutual mistrust. THat's my vew anyway.
Also, one of the main reasons for the mistrust between the sexes according to my interpration of the series is that taint of Saidin. That lead to all the power being in the hands of the women. The White Tower ruled the world in all but name. Aiel are basically ruled by the Wise Women, the Seanchan by an Empress, the best known Monarch in the series (Morgase) also a women. It imbalanced things too much and sowed the seeds for the mutual mistrust. THat's my vew anyway.
Most of fantasy readers are men, to be fair.
But I do not agree with you. I think that people didn't like them because they were written badly. Nynaeve was very annoying for half of the saga, and Avienddha was worse. Elayne wasn't annoying but was very stupid. I think that everyone liked Min (and she wasn't supergirl at all), and I liked Egwene (although most people hate her).
Elaida was Donald Trump of Westeros, while I think that people liked Siuan, and Moiraine is universally loved. In fact, despite that she wasn't terribly strong in the power (compared to the supergirls and to the new actors that came in the second half of the saga), she had the biggest contribute in the war (together with Egwene), balefiring a Forsaken, saving Rand's stupid arse in the fifth book, uniting everyone in the final book and then assisting Rand in the final battle.
So, going for the top 5 fantasy character to have a drink with (not in order):
Varys - A Song of Ice and Fire
The Fool - Reals of the Elderlings
Glokta - The First Law
Moiraine - The Wheel of Time
Lady - The Black Company
Hoid - Cosmere
Yeah, I do not know to count.
Varys - A Song of Ice and Fire
The Fool - Reals of the Elderlings
Glokta - The First Law
Moiraine - The Wheel of Time
Lady - The Black Company
Hoid - Cosmere
Yeah, I do not know to count.
I agree that people in general liked Min, but I think that was related to her not being a super-girl. It's no coincidence that most of the girls who are hated are very strong in the Power but don't have the authority to match at the start of the series. They're the arrogant new kids on the block, who haven't yet figured out their place in the world. Min is never that person, she never tries to acquire power or authority intentionally.
She's also the one who is most devoted to her man, Min's role is basically to help Rand throughout the series and be his confidante. Moiraine accepts falling into a similar role by TFoH. Whereas Elayne, Egwene, Aviendha, and Nynaeve are off running around chasing their own glories. Doing so brings them into conflict with the main male leads who are doing the same.
By the end of the series all of the female characters have had their humbling moments as well as experiencing changes that come with facing up to responsibility and are more likeable for it (imo). They're more comfortable in their own skin, more settled romantically, and wiser. This makes them better people.
I will note that the exception to this is Faile, who is tremendously annoying despite being devoted to Perrin and not being a channeler. She's also just as irritating by the end as she was in the beginning. What can I say; sorry @harshad I'm back to hating Faile again.
5 characters to have a drink with :
Dolorous Edd - ASOIAF
Kelsier - Mistborn
Hoid - Cosmere
Arthur Weasley - Harry Potter
Oberon - Iron Druid
Harry Dresden - Dresden Files
Dolorous Edd - ASOIAF
Kelsier - Mistborn
Hoid - Cosmere
Arthur Weasley - Harry Potter
Oberon - Iron Druid
Harry Dresden - Dresden Files
Most people don't have a gripe with main female cast of the WoT because they're overpowered and strong opinionated. It's their complete lack of empathy that's staggering through most of the series plus the fact that they can't finish a sentence without mentioning that all men are weak and wool headed idiots. It's funny in the first couple of books but ends up tiring and serving no purpose. Egwene's a good example of bad writing, so many moments of awesomeness followed by inner monologues and dialogues that make you want to bang your head against a concrete wall. Not that Rand "woe is me" al'Thor is any better, by the way.
I guess it's a thing now, arguing that men hate strong female characters. Well, that didn't stop WoT from becoming a best seller world wide. And, as Revan mentioned, it's mostly men (the fans of fantasy epics) that got Jordan these numbers. Imo it's the AS, as an organization, that people don't like and they would not have liked them even if they were men. And, tbf, Jordan doesn't portray them in the brightest of colors. Moiraine is universally loved because, although she's AS through n' through, she doesn't believe that everybody in the WT has handled/can handle everything in the "bestest" possible way.
Personally, i would have loved reading the first five books solely from Moiraine's perspective. That's how far better written she is from the rest of the boys and girls. And i would have loved to see more things from Siuan and Lanfear's PoVs.
I guess it's a thing now, arguing that men hate strong female characters. Well, that didn't stop WoT from becoming a best seller world wide. And, as Revan mentioned, it's mostly men (the fans of fantasy epics) that got Jordan these numbers. Imo it's the AS, as an organization, that people don't like and they would not have liked them even if they were men. And, tbf, Jordan doesn't portray them in the brightest of colors. Moiraine is universally loved because, although she's AS through n' through, she doesn't believe that everybody in the WT has handled/can handle everything in the "bestest" possible way.
Personally, i would have loved reading the first five books solely from Moiraine's perspective. That's how far better written she is from the rest of the boys and girls. And i would have loved to see more things from Siuan and Lanfear's PoVs.
This.
Moiraine, Siuan and Lan are the best written characters in the saga. And you can fully understand all three of them only if you read The New Spring novella.
Egwene was magnificent in actions, but her dialogues left much to be desired. In addition, she went from a rebel girl with little education and extremely stubborn, to the Aes Sedai-st of all Aes Sedai in a space of two minutes. I can forgive her, the attack on the White Tower and the final battle were two of the high points in the entire saga, and she was the main protagonists on all those two events.