Books Fantasy Reads

[Revan]

Rand always came across as someone in above his head and struggling to adapt. His lashing out makes sense as he feels trapped and feels being used by others. Saidin being tainted, mentally linked to asmodean, being a target of Lanfear and frequent meetings with Shaitan himself...it's all stacked against him.

Egwene on other hand is power hungry and jumps in heads on As Mat says "She left Eamonds field further than rest of it and regrets it less" is perfect description of her. Perfect Aes Sedai tbh, power hungry, cunning and manipulative. She many have suffered physically under Elaida, but then so did Rand when he was kidnapped. Despite that brief suffering, she always had friends in Elayne, Nyn then had Siuan mentoring her. Dumped Rand when she could be Aes Sedai, dumped Siuan once she got the Seat, even was willing to sacrifise her love for the power/title.

That's a very biased way of describing them.

Egwene gets a leash in her neck in the second book and is used as weapon for the Saechan Empire, while she doesn't even have Aes Sedai training. She is kidnapped from the Black Ajah. Her mentor is killed in the fifth book. Gets repeatedly beaten from Elaida and co., to only single-handed (in a weaker state) to defend the White Tower against the Saechan Empire. Her husband gets killed in the battle, and still she managed fighting and eventually sacrificing herself while she is the only Aes Sedai capable of fighting against the dark forces.

She gets seperated with Rand by mutual consent. The entire visit from Rand happens to tell her that he is leaving her.

 

[Revan]

More than Avasarala?

Yep. Aenea is in a level of her own in sci-fi for me.

 

[DMacgraw]

Oh, and i fully agree that Rand was an arsehole of the highest order.

I see your point but let's just agree to disagree on the matter. Just to clarify myself though, i believe the lack of empathy is something that "plagues" most of the main characters, not just the female ones. And despite the WoT being a fantastic story overall, that was a huge turn off for me.

Let us talk about empathy, Red, which you accuse the characters of not having. But what about your own empathy?

Rand was a nice happy kid growing up in a small village, his main ambition being to marry his childhood sweetheart and settle down as a sheep farmer. Then he learns that he may be the Dragon reborn, the incarnation of the most hated man in the world for over 3000 years, a man whose name is synonymous with the devil (the Dark One) in most people's minds, a man who everybody knows had destroyed the world once and believe he will destroy it again. Can you imagine the horror he must have felt?

Rand spends the first three books running away from that horrible destiny, trying to find out whether he was, indeed, the Dragon reborn or whether it was just an Aes Sedai plot to create another False Dragon for their own purposes. Even his best friend, Mat, acts like a dick towards him in the first five books because he (Mat) didn't want to have anything to do with the Dragon. Then, when he accepts his destiny (after Book 3) and starts preparing the world for the Last Battle, everyone he comes across, everyone (except for Min, Loial and the other Superboys) tries to use him for their own purposes. Even Moiraine, before she went through the Tear ter'angreal, was dead set on trying to mold him to suit the White Tower's purposes!

Meanwhile, he is gradually growing insane from the same taint that caused his Lews Therin incarnation to kill everyone he loved 3000 years ago and break the world, and Rand is hanging on to his sanity by his fingernails, still trying to prepare for Tarmon Gaidon. He has the Forsaken after him, the Red Ajah after him, kings and queens manouevering for political advantage instead of uniting to save the world, the Seanchan trying to take over the world, and his mind is getting more and more filled with the taint!

As far as I can see, The ONLY reason he doesn't fully crack under all that pressure and just lay everything to waste around him is the love and support of Min. I consider it absolutely remarkable that he was able to withstand all those pressures and lead the world to seal off the Dark One again.

Now let us talk about your own empathy, Red. Do you really appreciate the impossible pressure he was under? If it were you under that much pressure, how would you have handled it? I know that compared to me Rand was a complete saint; I would have balefired Cadsuane instead of banishing her, and destroyed the entire city of Ebou Dar with Tuon and every Seanchan in it. I find it amazing that so many people complain about Rand's arrogance, and I wonder if they are reading the same story I am! And I wonder, where is the empathy of all these people who are condemning Rand as an absolute asshole ... do they appreciate what he has to deal with, and how would they have acted if they were in Rand's shoes?

 

[caid]

Fela? From what I read, I pictured Fela to be way hotter than Denna.

That loan shark is Devi and she totally owns Kvote when Kvote tries to go up against her.

Yup thats them.
Few good characters from the place he learns Ketan too, now i think of it.
Was an interesting society he came up with

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

@DMacgraw

No one denies the huge amount of pressure Rand has to deal with. It's his predicament that makes him likeable to the readers (something that is Jordan's intention) but it's the same predicament that justifies the others' cautiousness towards him and their need to control him. It's far more easy to sympathize with him (you mentioned all the reasons why in your post) and cheer for him when he brings changes to the status quo of Jordan's world but these actions also alienate him from his friends because they originate from the belief that everybody wants his harm(of course, it's not only his fault as the others fail to put themselves in his shoes too).

And my empathy is just fine mate, there's no need for any of us to make assumptions for people we don't know and probably won't ever meet in the flesh in a thread discussing fictional characters.

 

[DMacgraw]

Empathy is the ability to put one's self in someone else's situation, in order to understand the motivation for his or her actions. The thing is, Rand has an impossible task, and any other person would have failed and doomed the world. Even he, who was the Creator's own special champion, and who is endowed with the Creator's mantle and born specifically to restore balance to the Wheel, almost failed 3000 years ago as Lews Therin, and was a whisker away from failing again this time as Rand. Nobody else could have succeeded at that task; I know I wouldn't have, and I doubt anyone else we can think of could have, because I can put myself in the situation he was in and ask how I would have reacted.

As I mentioned earlier, I am always amazed when I see fans (a whole legion of fans, not just you, believe me) post their dislike of Rand and call him an arrogant asshole among other derogatory terms. The only explanation I can think of is that these fans have not put themselves in Rand shoes, and are expecting him to behave as the nice kid we met in Emond's Field until the Final Battle. But he would certainly have failed that way. If Rand hadn't done the things he did to prepare the world, the DO would have won and broken the Wheel. And the reason he succeeded as Rand when he had previously failed as Lews Therin is because underneath all his later hardness and so-called arrogance, he remained throughout the nice kid we first met in Emond's Field; aMoL (the last book) says so outright.

I am not suggesting that you, Red, or other fans who dislike Rand and claim he is an asshole lack empathy. I am suggesting that perhaps your expectations of Rand as we first meet him is causing you to summarily reject his later behavior and maybe you are not allowing yourself to apply your empathy to his situation.

And if it is not very clear already from what I've said so far, let me confirm that my top 3 favorite characters in the Wheel of Time would be, in order, Rand, Min, and Moiraine. If I remember correctly, on the original WoT message boards and on the TOR WoT Reread threads, Mat is by far the favorite character for the majority of WoT fans (followed by Bela, I think).

 

[Revan]

Just finished Arcanum Unbounded. The Emperor's Soul and especially Edgedancer were really cool novellas (skipped Mistborn: Secret History cause I had already read it when it was released), while I didn't care that much about short stories.

With this read, I have read everything from Cosmere bar the graphic novella.

...

Also a couple of days ago, I spent two hours reading parts from the final three books in WoT. I read the chapters on the attack on the White Tower followed by Egwene becoming Amyrlin Seat, then on the next book the meeting between her and Rand, and finally the chapter on the Dragon Peace. All of these parts were absolutely sublime.

 

[padr81]

With regards Rand, I think he's a victim of his situation and he almost becomes an asshole because he see's it for the best for his friends, family etc... He has a really touching conversation with Nynaeve in Arad Doman after he exiles Cadsuane where I think his assholeness is explained better than anywhere else. Rand falsely thinks he's not a person anymore but is an object with a specific purpose to than be discarded. As said earlier after running from it he embraces it and just decides that he's not a person, just a tool, he becomes broken by all this and see's only his duty.

His comments on Lan, Mat and Perrin show just that. Little but tools for the purpose because he's incapable of seeing himself or them as anything else and he has to distance himself or he won't be able for whats coming. The fact he openly tells Nynaeve, he'll be willing to sacrifice Lan at the gap to gain any advantage he can is brilliant writing on Sanderson's part. You can read the words and understand that in plain black and white he means what he says but the reader also knows that inside he's steeling himself to do it.

People have to realise Rand is a huge victim of circumstance, by the stage he actual becomes cuendillar so to speak.
He's got two wounds from the dark one that are unbearable and uncurable according to those that have bonded him.
He's been kidnapped by the Aes Sedai and beaten to a pulp, he's had his arm blown off by Semhirage.
He's wrecked with guilt particularly over Moirane who he let "die" saving him from Lanfear.
He's also had a dead man practically convincing him to embrace death in his head for years.

Rand eventually comes to see himself and his friends as nothing more than tools and becomes an asshole as it is the only way he can hold himself together to push on. For Rand imho its a sacrifice on his part of himself and his relationship with just about everyone he cares about so he can have the strength to do what must be done to save them.

 

[Revan]

@padr81

That is a great post, and absolutely agree with it.

It is nice though, how at the end of the Gathering Storm, he lets his darkness go away, fully merges with LTT, but still managed to keep his old identity and persona. On the final two books, he is Rand of the beginning of saga (obviously, much more experienced, powerful and hardened) and has fully rejected the Dark Rand persona he was for the previous 3-5 books.

 

[DMacgraw]

@Revan
Shadows for Silence and Sixth of the Dusk are not short stories, but cosmere novellas. I can't tell from your post whether you skipped them or not. If you didn't read them, you might give them a shot.

 

[DMacgraw]

Finished Joe Abercrombie's Best Served Cold, the first of the three standalone novels in the First Law world. I enjoyed it much better than the original trilogy, as Revan had suggested earlier.

But I've decided to take a break from the First Law world and read Worm, by Wildbow (J.C. McCrae). Started off great.

 

[Revan]

@Revan
Shadows for Silence and Sixth of the Dusk are not short stories, but cosmere novellas. I can't tell from your post whether you skipped them or not. If you didn't read them, you might give them a shot.

Didn't skip them, just didn't find them interesting.

 

[Revan]

Finally, started Malazan Book of the Fallen. Read around 20% of the Gardens of the Moon so far, and I have absolutely no idea what is going on. I am liking it quite a lot though. Sounds bizarre!

@Edgar Allan Pillow

Was I right starting with Gardens or there is some other preferred order? Internet seems to not agree on anything regarding Malazan.

 

[Nighteyes]

Finally, started Malazan Book of the Fallen. Read around 20% of the Gardens of the Moon so far, and I have absolutely no idea what is going on. I am liking it quite a lot though. Sounds bizarre!

@Edgar Allan Pillow

Was I right starting with Gardens or there is some other preferred order? Internet seems to not agree on anything regarding Malazan.

The internet complicates things. Read it in the publishing order and the only question from there on in is whether to read the ICE books separably or to insert them between the Malazan books.

 

[Lastwolf]

Empathy is the ability to put one's self in someone else's situation, in order to understand the motivation for his or her actions. The thing is, Rand has an impossible task, and any other person would have failed and doomed the world. Even he, who was the Creator's own special champion, and who is endowed with the Creator's mantle and born specifically to restore balance to the Wheel, almost failed 3000 years ago as Lews Therin, and was a whisker away from failing again this time as Rand. Nobody else could have succeeded at that task; I know I wouldn't have, and I doubt anyone else we can think of could have, because I can put myself in the situation he was in and ask how I would have reacted.

As I mentioned earlier, I am always amazed when I see fans (a whole legion of fans, not just you, believe me) post their dislike of Rand and call him an arrogant asshole among other derogatory terms. The only explanation I can think of is that these fans have not put themselves in Rand shoes, and are expecting him to behave as the nice kid we met in Emond's Field until the Final Battle. But he would certainly have failed that way. If Rand hadn't done the things he did to prepare the world, the DO would have won and broken the Wheel. And the reason he succeeded as Rand when he had previously failed as Lews Therin is because underneath all his later hardness and so-called arrogance, he remained throughout the nice kid we first met in Emond's Field; aMoL (the last book) says so outright.

I am not suggesting that you, Red, or other fans who dislike Rand and claim he is an asshole lack empathy. I am suggesting that perhaps your expectations of Rand as we first meet him is causing you to summarily reject his later behavior and maybe you are not allowing yourself to apply your empathy to his situation.

And if it is not very clear already from what I've said so far, let me confirm that my top 3 favorite characters in the Wheel of Time would be, in order, Rand, Min, and Moiraine. If I remember correctly, on the original WoT message boards and on the TOR WoT Reread threads, Mat is by far the favorite character for the majority of WoT fans (followed by Bela, I think).

It's not just that Rand was the only person that could have succeeded in sealing the dark one, this is the only world, time and place that even he could have succeeded. "I win again Lews Therin" is what the dark one tells Rand over and over. When he travels between realities/ time travels or whatever those other worlds are he sees events were he, specifically fails time and time again. The odds are staggeringly small that anything he does will lead to even temporary victory against the dark one, yet everyone acts like it's a simple matter.

I'm not that surprised, he totally was arrogant at points but I mean who wouldn't be as a 17 year old capable of defeating armies single handed. Not only is nearly everyone in the books telling him what to do and berating him for not following their exact often contradictory plan, they don't seem to understand his reluctance to kill himself at all. If I was in Rand shoes I'd have told 90% of them to feck off by book 2.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Finally, started Malazan Book of the Fallen. Read around 20% of the Gardens of the Moon so far, and I have absolutely no idea what is going on. I am liking it quite a lot though. Sounds bizarre!

@Edgar Allan Pillow

Was I right starting with Gardens or there is some other preferred order? Internet seems to not agree on anything regarding Malazan.

It's fantastic writing. More like a puzzle where you don't have all the pieces. The author drops you in the middle of a saga and expect you to navigate blind.

The best way to read Malazan is to just go about reading what is written and not bother about who the characters are, why they are doing what they are doing etc...Many will get explained away later or you'll get some hints on the way...

@mariner85

http://malazan.wikia.com/wiki/Suggested_reading_order

The link has published, chronological and combined reading orders all listed. Personally I'd recommend

Gardens of the Moon
Deadhouse Gates
Memories of Ice
House of Chains
Midnight Tides
Night of Knives
The Bonehunters
Reaper's Gale
Return of the Crimson Guard
Toll the Hounds
Dust of Dreams
Stonewielder
The Crippled God
Orb Sceptre Throne
Blood and Bone
Assail

Kharkanas and Paths to Ascendanncy are near standalone prequels and can be read anytime without spoilering the main series of books.
Bauchelain and Korbal Broach series are also standalone, though I haven't read them yet. Not my favorite characters, so will skip this for now.

 

[Revan]

It's fantastic writing. More like a puzzle where you don't have all the pieces. The author drops you in the middle of a saga and expect you to navigate blind.

The best way to read Malazan is to just go about reading what is written and not bother about who the characters are, why they are doing what they are doing etc...Many will get explained away later or you'll get some hints on the way...

Yeah, this list looked to me that it made sense. Essentially, a combined Erikson-Esslemont publishing order. I think that I will go with that (providing that I like the books), otherwise I'll skip Esslemont books.

One interesting thing is that I usually don't get too much concentrated when I read fantasy books, but I had to do that for Malazan. I was reading slowly and carefully, almost like when I read an academic paper. And it is as much confusing.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Yeah, this list looked to me that it made sense. Essentially, a combined Erikson-Esslemont publishing order. I think that I will go with that (providing that I like the books), otherwise I'll skip Esslemont books.

One interesting thing is that I usually don't get too much concentrated when I read fantasy books, but I had to do that for Malazan. I was reading slowly and carefully, almost like when I read an academic paper. And it is as much confusing.

You can skip the ones after The Crippled God. They provide additional closure, but mostly standalone. Stoneweilder too. But read the rest. Night of Knives and Return of Crimson Guard are very good stories and play important part in understanding the overall plot. Don't skip these.

There are lot of negatives about Malazan, humongous books, characters just appear with no backstory, magic is not explained clearly, story moves all around across continents, times, places, races and characters...etc. But despite all that you can really feel the epic scale of the world. So many interesting characters...

And Book 2 is like starting a new series. New story, characters, plot etc...

What I admire about the author is his ability to piece everything together. You get a hint in Book 1 that'll get connected in Book 7 etc. Astonishing.

 

[DMacgraw]

You can skip the ones after The Crippled God. They provide additional closure, but mostly standalone. Stoneweilder too. But read the rest. Night of Knives and Return of Crimson Guard are very good stories and play important part in understanding the overall plot. Don't skip these.

I agree. I think I would have been left with a greater liking of Malazan overall if I hadn't read OST and the subsequent Esslemont books. In my view, the books ended with a moral failure even worse than how Jordan rewarded the Seanchan and their empire built on enslavement of women. I hated it so much I refused to read the rest of the Esslemont books and haven't touched any Malazan books since, including the Kharkanas books.

Spoiler

Book 2 of the series, Deadhouse Gates, started with a revolt on the continent of Seven Cities against the Malazan Empire. A large chunk of the book consisted of an attempt by the governor of one of the provinces to lead several thousand Malazan civilians to safety across hostile territory under constant attack by the desert tribes, to a fortified city several thousand miles away and still in Malazan hands. After incredible bravery and hardship the garrison managed to deliver the civilians to the fortified city, only for the soldiers to be betrayed by suborned elements within the city. All the soldiers guarding the civilians were crucified outside the gates of the city. It is one of the most heroic, inspiring and harrowing tales in all of fantasy.

The point is, the whole rebellion against the Malazan Empire was instigated by a Jhistal priest, and he was the prime mover of the betrayal and crucificion of the heroic soldiers. I hated him with a passion. Well, guess what happens in OST? That Jhistal priest becomes the new Emperor of the Malazan Empire!!!!

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I hated it so much I refused to read the rest of the Esslemont books and haven't touched any Malazan books since, including the Kharkanas books.

Yup. Mallick and Korbolo are my top two most despicable characters too.

Spoiler

Good that you skipped Kharkanas then as there's a similar character there too. But it gives lot of information about Azathanai (Draconus, Brood, Errant, K'rul etc), Jaghut (Gothos, Hood before he was Lord of Death etc)

But you should read Path to Ascendancy. Good backstory to Emperor/Dancer.

 

[DMacgraw]

What I liked best about Malazan are the characters, especially the Bridgeburners and the Bonehunters. I liked Helian and Throatslitter and Deadsmell and, of course, Quick Ben and Kalam and Fiddler and the others. I kept reading the series because of those characters. I also greatly enjoyed many of the characters first introduced in Letheras (Tehol, Bugg, Ublala; Shurq and Harlest, who may be some of the most unique fantasy characters I've come across).

I didn't particularly care for the direction of the story starting in Toll the Hounds, because the focus shifted away from the characters I was interested in and followed the backstory of the Tiste races (Yan Tovis and all that). I suppose he did that to lead into the Kharkanas trilogy, but that part of the story didn't interest me much.

 

[The Bloody-Nine]

I have tried a great many fantasy series but I've always been put off Malazan by the polarising opinions. Some people adore it, some people swear it's unintelligible garbage.

I just finished 'Sins of the Empire' by Brian McClelland, the first in a new trilogy featuring the powdermage characters from his original series. Have to say, I wasn't blown away, no pun intended. I really enjoyed the original trilogy but something was off with this one.

Prior to that I read the Grim Company trilogy, which is by Luke Scull (a former Bioware employee). As a big Abercrombie fan it was pretty amusing. Very much in the mould of The First Law.

 

[Revan]

Prior to that I read the Grim Company trilogy, which is by Luke Scull (a former Bioware employee). As a big Abercrombie fan it was pretty amusing. Very much in the mould of The First Law.

Been planning to read it for a few years now. Heard good words about it on westerosi forum, essentially it was described as 'Abercrombie, but with magic'.

 

[The Bloody-Nine]

To begin with I was thinking it was a little too Abercrombie, with similar characters, etc. It soon develops into its own thing, though. I'd certainly say it's worth a look.

 

[harshad]

Looking at all these usernames based off fantasy characters makes me want to petition damien for a name change

 

[Cnaiür urs Skiötha]

Been planning to read it for a few years now. Heard good words about it on westerosi forum, essentially it was described as 'Abercrombie, but with magic'.

I thought Grim Company was better than Joe`s first book (although characters have been a plus for Joe).

Everybody who likes this Kind of books should absolutely read Angus Watson - The Age of Iron trilogy.

 

[Cnaiür urs Skiötha]

Finally, started Malazan Book of the Fallen. Read around 20% of the Gardens of the Moon so far, and I have absolutely no idea what is going on. I am liking it quite a lot though. Sounds bizarre!

@Edgar Allan Pillow

Was I right starting with Gardens or there is some other preferred order? Internet seems to not agree on anything regarding Malazan.

I managed to finish GotM but stopped. It felt more like a Comic without Pictures than Fantasy literature.

Right now I read The Black Company (first trilogy). It is similar strange so far but the second book is a lot better than the first.

 

[The Bloody-Nine]

I thought Grim Company was better than Joe`s first book (although characters have been a plus for Joe).

Everybody who likes this Kind of books should absolutely read Angus Watson - The Age of Iron trilogy.

Yep, they are decent. Watson has a new book out, 'You Die When You Die', the first in his new West of West trilogy. Have you tried it yet? It's on my list.

 

[Nighteyes]

I managed to finish GotM but stopped. It felt more like a Comic without Pictures than Fantasy literature.

It's because the game is essentially derived from table top RPG and DnD games. Its also why a lot of the plots are completely random and lack logic. Chances are Eriksen quite literally tossed a coin and wrote parts of the book.

 

[Revan]

Read half of Gardens and still doesn't make much sense. I am following to some degree the main story, but they story in that other city seems to have written from a random character generator.

 

[DMacgraw]

I'm quite enjoying Worm. But what a monster of a book! That single book clocks in at 4,429 pages, equivalent to four books the size of Words of Radiance or the first five books of the Wheel of Time combined. Anybody here read it?

 

[Unmutual]

Right now I read The Black Company (first trilogy). It is similar strange so far but the second book is a lot better than the first.

I'm just coming into the final stretch of the third book. Fun stuff, but hard to see how it could be sustained over 6 more books with such a simple style.

 

[caid]

Read half of Gardens and still doesn't make much sense. I am following to some degree the main story, but they story in that other city seems to have written from a random character generator.

First book is hard work but it gets easier

 

[DMacgraw]

I'm just coming into the final stretch of the third book. Fun stuff, but hard to see how it could be sustained over 6 more books with such a simple style.

The next book (The Silver Spike) is a standalone novel that more or less finishes the story in the first trilogy. After that, well you know how we are reading the 'chronicles of the Black Company of Khatovar'? The next two books are about the Black Company going back south to seek their roots, Khatovar. The final books describe events arising from the presence of the Black Company in the south. The last book in the series so far, Soldiers Live, brought the series to what is generally considered to be a satisfactory conclusion. Yet, Cook apparently indicated that he planned to write further books about the Black Company. Perhaps the fact that he hasn't been able to come up with a way to continue the story in nearly 20 years suggests that it may be more difficult to do so than he thought.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I just finished 'Sins of the Empire' by Brian McClelland, the first in a new trilogy featuring the powdermage characters from his original series. Have to say, I wasn't blown away, no pun intended. I really enjoyed the original trilogy but something was off with this one.

Prior to that I read the Grim Company trilogy, which is by Luke Scull (a former Bioware employee). As a big Abercrombie fan it was pretty amusing. Very much in the mould of The First Law.

i read Promise of Blood im powdermage trilogy. It was decent, but never inspired me to read the rest. I still have kept it for 'maybe later'.

Been looking at Grim Company for a while now. Maybe after I finish Attack on Titan.

 

[The Bloody-Nine]

I recently began The Farseer Trilogy. It's a bit of a slow starter. Or maybe it's just that I'm more of a grimdark fan.

Is it worth persevering?

 

[harshad]

@The Bloody-Nine Yes

 

[GhastlyHun]

I recently began The Farseer Trilogy. It's a bit of a slow starter. Or maybe it's just that I'm more of a grimdark fan.

Is it worth persevering?

The setup for one of the vastest fantasy universes out there. Definitely worth persevering. And getting the others, of course.


Btw, some off-topic: Do we have a notable 'Sci-Fi reads' thread around here? Are people in this thread sci-fi readers as well? I certainly am, and it would be nice to have a discussion/recommendation thread for that as well.

 

[The Bloody-Nine]

That will be two for the 'yes' camp then. Would either of you agree that it starts out slow? I'm wondering if it's just me.

 

[GhastlyHun]

I honestly do not remember... it's ages ago that I read the original Farseer trilogy.