It's not a lack of empathy. It's a feeling of superiority that stems from the previous 1000 years (or whatever it was). There is a significant distrust and not a small of amount of fear that plays a big role in the gender politics in the world which provides suitable context for the behavior.
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It's not a lack of empathy. It's a feeling of superiority that stems from the previous 1000 years (or whatever it was). There is a significant distrust and not a small of amount of fear that plays a big role in the gender politics in the world which provides suitable context for the behavior.
Exactly. It's no different to sexist terms and phrases that were (and sometimes still are) prevalent in our society, just with the shoe on the other foot.
I don't agree, i think it's a lack of empathy because it's not restricted to the male/female relationships but it's prominent in the relationships between the girls too. There's a lot of "my way or the highway" logic going on which creates tensions and more problems that could have easily been solved with an honest conversation, if the participants were willing to listen to other opinions instead of trying to force their own agenda.
And imho all the lore of Jordan's world doesn't give them the leeway to act the way they do. Five of the six main characters have grown up together ffs, that should count for something. For instance, Mat saved the three girls' sorry arses in the Dragon Reborn, was that a way to treat him afterwards? And for all the things you can accuse Nyn of, Egwene's treatment of her, especially when she became Amyrlin, was petty at least.
In the second half of the series who'll be doing the bowing and the grovelling becomes more important than the LB itself.
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Well, Egwene's a bitch so there's that.
Which is a pity really because she started out as "top five best fantasy characters ever" material for me. Fast learner, ambitious, able to put logic over emotions (for Rand this is far more difficult) and not afraid to put her hand in the fire. But when she gets what she wants all she thinks and communicates seems to become a reverberation a weird "how many times did i show everybody today that i'm so far above them" mantra.
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What did Egwene do to Nyn?
The whole "rape" scenario in T'AR just to prove that it's dangerous to venture there didn't sit well with me. Neither the "i insist you call me Mother even when we're alone", it was a needless display of power in the ToM.
Cannot remember anything about the rape scenario, to be fair.
Insisting on calling her 'Mother' was alright IMO, they both decided to become Aes Sedai willingly. Moiraine calls Siuan 'Mother' too despite that the entire 'you become Amyrlin, I find the Dragon Reborn' had been Moiraine's idea.
It's nothing to with a lack of empathy though. Egwene (and her treatment of Nyn) is a pretty bad example because she was presented as arrogant character right from the start. And the conflict between the two was a case of their beliefs being polar opposite than any lack of empathy. Egwene is in love with the whole concept of Aes Sedai while Nynaeve is anything but. Not to mention Egwene's enslavement made her even more of a control freak than she was.
Also, you cannot group Egwene and Nynaeve together. Their characters progressions are completely and utterly different.
Yep. And it takes time to get used to the change in stature. I'd argue (given the fact the whole series spanned about 2 years) that it happened a tad too quickly if anything.
People give too much stick to Egwene. She was a 20 years old girl with little to no education, and who suddenly became the second most powerful person in the world (not counting the Forsaken) after months of being tortured.
Rand is as arrogant and as big of an arsehole as her.
Rand is as arrogant and as big of an arsehole as her.
If i remember correctly in the scene in the Great Hunt where we first meet Siuan, she and Moiraine drop the form when they are left alone. So there's that. And in private i don't think there was need for formalities since Nyn may not like the AS but she has made it clear that she will not criticize them openly in front of a third party.
The "rape" scene was in the 4th or 5th book when they're all experimenting with T'AR. They both break the rules but when Nyn tries something new Egg "creates" two monster-like men who leave Nyn scarred and makes them vanish just before they rape her. From that point on she gains the upper hand in their relationship.
Oh, and i fully agree that Rand was an arsehole of the highest order.
I see your point but let's just agree to disagree on the matter. Just to clarify myself though, i believe the lack of empathy is something that "plagues" most of the main characters, not just the female ones. And despite the WoT being a fantastic story overall, that was a huge turn off for me.
I think part of the problem was that Nynaeve had difficulty accepting Egwene as Amyrlin due to the fact she babysitted and mentored her from childhood. It's a huge role reversal that Nynaeve has to come to terms with over the series. Egwene's authority as Amyrlin is always in question and she can't afford doubt from her closest friends and supporters.
Mentioning Rand's arseholery when discussing the female characters doesn't really work because the moment he accepted that he is the Dragon Reborn he also accepted that he will die soon, inevitably, irregardless of the outcome of Tarmon Gaidon. It's kinda hard to be a nice guy when you know you are toasted.
Might be true but as i wrote in my previous post i think it was pretty clear that Nyn fully acknowledges the benefits of AS training and their important role in the world. This happens early in the series when she decides that she will concentrate on healing. And despite all she's been through, Egwene has no true reason to suspect Nyn of such a thing as a coup against her. The fact that she talks to her like she does expect something like that, is what irritated me in the first place.
Not a coup or anything like that, just not fully ready to accept that Egwene personally is now her superior. It's not to do with Aes Sedai in general, it's to do with a person you always regarded as a child, your student and your responsibility now becoming your boss. And that too within a time period of a few years. Given how headstrong Nynaeve is, that was always going to be a challenge for her.
That's one way to see it. In my opinion the tables in their relationship turned before Egwene became Amyrlin and they both know it. After spending much time with Moiraine and the Wise Ones Egwene has managed to create an aura of superiority around her and she is very close to mastering the art of getting her way (we see this through Rand's PoVs in which he mentions that she has the all knowing and ever calculating AS look) Nyn has a hard time accepting it but this is now an inner struggle more than outward antagonizing (in contrast to the first 4 or 5 books). That's why i think it unnecessary from Egwene to act like that.
Not even close I'm afraid. A lot of the times Rand is arrogant because of all shit he has to deal with and some of the people he has around him (Cadsuance and Moiraine for example) but internal monologue tells a different story. Where as Egwene is quite haughty even in her internal monologues while being completely wrong most of the time.
On a side note, speaking of Cadsuane, Rand telling her "You may call me Rand Sedai" is probably one of the greatest lines in the books.
I agree with Revan on female characters being badly written. I can understand the arrogance, but the underlying immaturity continues over 1000 years is just mind numbing. Punishment by slipper beatings etc is so juevenile that you struggle to think of an adult women community engaging in that, far less one that pseudo-rules the world.
Yeah it is an inner struggle more than anything, but I think Egwene's fear is that if Nynaeve loses her temper in public even once and disrespects her (and who would put this past Nynaeve), she's going to need to publicly chastise and humiliate Nynaeve to preserve her own authority. She won't even have a choice given her own tenuous position. Egwene overdoes the dressing down at times, but she's under tremendous pressure herself and she doesn't want to waste time on this.
I guess that's true in a sense that Nyn keeps any good thoughts she has about the AS mostly to herself and therefore we, as readers, know that she probably won't lose it in public but Egwene doesn't know that. And i'll admit that i'm often ott with my criticism of Egwene because, as i said earlier, i believe she had so much more potential as a character.
Being arrogant is one thing but thoughts like "i should sign my marriage papers because i'm the supreme authority in the world"(who gives a feck who'll sign the papers, sweatheart), "i don't want to go back home because my parents will have to bow and scrape before me" (it's not like you can't make arrangements to see them in private and tell them that it's not necessary to kiss the ring, if you feel so bad about it) or the show she puts on after Rand has brought a number of people to swear fealty to her, things like these made me dread her PoV chapters after she became Amyrlin.
So who in your opinion are Top 10 favourite/best female characters in fantasy world?
I need to order this later, but off top off my head...
Feel free to add in...
Level 1 - Protagonists
Tavore Paran (Malazan)
Vin (Mistborn)
Level 2 - Significant characters (well written)
Moiraine, Siuan, Min (WoT)
Ceresi, Daenerys, Sansa (GoT)
Lady (Black Company)
Sonea (Black Magician Trilogy)
Hermione Granger (Harry Potter)
Shallan Davar / Jasnah Kholin (Stormlight)
Steris (Alloy of Law) - Started off very stereotypical, but has moved to be one of favourite characters
Level 3 - Good characters (incl. poorly written)
Jez - Tales of Keey Jay
Egwene, Nyn, Aviendha, Faile, Elaida, Elayne etc (WoT)
Denna (Kingkiller)
Molly (Realm of Elderlings)
I need to order this later, but off top off my head...
Feel free to add in...
Level 1 - Protagonists
Tavore Paran (Malazan)
Vin (Mistborn)
Level 2 - Significant characters (well written)
Moiraine, Siuan, Min (WoT)
Ceresi, Daenerys, Sansa (GoT)
Lady (Black Company)
Sonea (Black Magician Trilogy)
Hermione Granger (Harry Potter)
Shallan Davar / Jasnah Kholin (Stormlight)
Steris (Alloy of Law) - Started off very stereotypical, but has moved to be one of favourite characters
Level 3 - Good characters (incl. poorly written)
Jez - Tales of Keey Jay
Egwene, Nyn, Aviendha, Faile, Elaida, Elayne etc (WoT)
Denna (Kingkiller)
Molly (Realm of Elderlings)
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Yeah
Also, isn't Paran a guy?
I know Terry Goodkind pretty much ripped off WoT but I have to say I'm a fan of the character Kahlan. So I'd add her.
That's his whore sister. Not sure what she's doing on that list mind.
Ganoes Paran is, Tavore is his sister.
I love Hellian from Malazan. Her idea to have an invasion by pub crawl was worth the entry price of Reapers Gale alone.
I thought Robin Hobbs were a strong collection.
Not so much Molly who was a bit vanilla, but Kettricken and Starling and there was a big pile of good characters in Liveships.
I liked Eowyn in Lord of the Rings, though the way her story was wrapped up was a bit disappointing.
I liked Denna and Kvothes college friends, girlfriend who's name i cant remember was quite good. She was a medic mostly i think? The loanshark was interesting too.
Oh and I kind of love Auri.
Haven't read WoT.
Fela? From what I read, I pictured Fela to be way hotter than Denna.
That loan shark is Devi and she totally owns Kvote when Kvote tries to go up against her.
Sorry that Medic chick was Mola I think. I keep mixing those two up.
What's wrong with Tavore? She's one of the few female protagonists and one well written too.
I've only read the first four or five WoT books so far and have found both the women and men to be quite annoying. There's been times I'm hoping Lanfear will turn up and wipe the smugness off Nynaeve and Egwene for a while. Elayne is ok compared to the others, Nynaeve is just an annoying braid tugging judgemental bitch. Egwene isn't far behind her. Faile is a douche nozzle of the highest order. Moraine is pretty great though.
Top Five Female Characters off the top of my head would be:
1) Monza Murcatto(First Law/Best Served Cold)
2)Ciri(Witcher)
3)Yennefer(Witcher. Purely because she is a thundering bitch done right.)
4)Moiraine(WoT. So far.)
5) Arrianne(ASOIAF)
I'd give Cersei an honourable mention.
Top Five Female Characters off the top of my head would be:
1) Monza Murcatto(First Law/Best Served Cold)
2)Ciri(Witcher)
3)Yennefer(Witcher. Purely because she is a thundering bitch done right.)
4)Moiraine(WoT. So far.)
5) Arrianne(ASOIAF)
I'd give Cersei an honourable mention.
I've read a load of clunky series recently and I'm looking for something a little shorter (though longer than a novella) to get my teeth into - preferably a stand alone novel.
Any suggestions?
Any suggestions?
Tigana, Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell and Perdido Street Station come highly recommended, but a bit heavy ( by reputation as I haven't read)
City of Stairs is a comparatively lighter read though very good story telling, which I enjoyed thoroughly.
Going Postal and Making Money are more fun and some of the best Terry Pratchett books I've read.
Gaiman's American Gods (TV show on) and Good Omens (With Terry Pratchett) are also good.
As always thank you for the suggestions. Read most of those but curiously haven't even touched the words of the late great Terry Pratchett. Will dive in.
And yet in the end he survived and went to chill with his harem while Egwene sacrificed herself to win the war. Rand also came once very close to totally destroying the world because of his insanity, while Eggy controlled herself better despite that she suffered as much - if not more - than Rand.
Fela is hotter than Denna. I think that Bass said that Denna wasn't even that hot, Fela is surprised as very beautiful, a nice girl and loved Kvothe. But he is stupid to go for Denna.
Devi was a fantastic character and totally destroying Kvothe was awesome.
...
Top 10 female characters:
1. Moiraine Damondred - The Wheel of Time
2. Cersei Lannister - A Song of Ice and Fire
3. Vin - Mistborn
4. The Lady - The Black Company
5. Monzcarro Murcatto - The First Law
6. Daenerys Targaryan - A Song of Ice and Fire
7. Denna - The Kingskiller Chronicles
8. Kettricken - The Realm of the Elderlings
9. Siuan Sanche - The Wheel of Time
10. Yennefer - The Witcher
B: Arya Stark - A Song of Ice and Fire
B: Egwene al'Vere - The Wheel of Time
Aenea from Hyperion Cantos (science-fiction) is the only female character in literature that I like as much as Moiraine.
Tigana and The Lions of Al-Rassan from Guy Gavriel Kay are absolutely awesome. Supremely good writing (the best in the genre in that aspect), interesting complex characters, great stories and low on magic.
Rand always came across as someone in above his head and struggling to adapt. His lashing out makes sense as he feels trapped and feels being used by others. Saidin being tainted, mentally linked to asmodean, being a target of Lanfear and frequent meetings with Shaitan himself...it's all stacked against him.
Egwene on other hand is power hungry and jumps in heads on As Mat says "She left Eamonds field further than rest of it and regrets it less" is perfect description of her. Perfect Aes Sedai tbh, power hungry, cunning and manipulative. She many have suffered physically under Elaida, but then so did Rand when he was kidnapped. Despite that brief suffering, she always had friends in Elayne, Nyn then had Siuan mentoring her. Dumped Rand when she could be Aes Sedai, dumped Siuan once she got the Seat, even was willing to sacrifise her love for the power/title.
