Hard to argue with this.
Fans wilfully accept or won’t even acknowledge Sir Alex Ferguson’s ongoing influence at Manchester United.
- Thread starter The Oracle
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Jamie (@Vault Dweller) are here to talk about United's dreadful home defeat at the hands of Big Ange's Tottenham Hotspur. Should this have been the end of Ten Hag? How long does he actually have left? And does Nik finally want ETH out?!
Hard to argue with this.
I’m 99% sure the man that is Fergie doesn’t want that at all, it’s not in his makeup; hence why he’s recommending Ole/Phelan, calling up Ronaldo and still sitting on the board. The man is a winner and of course will want to have influence on his club.
I’m 99.9% certain if he wanted what you say, he’s step back completely from Manchester United.
Why should he? He’s our greatest manager ever. He lives until 100, he stays on the board until 100 imo. As for Ole, Fergie ‘recommending’ him didn’t matter - he was bound to get the job after his performance as interim manager. Ole was sacked in due time anyway.
Also, you calling his influence in bringing Ronaldo back a negative is plain wrong. Cavani is pretty much useless these days and Greenwood has been sent down. Without Ronaldo, we’d have Elanga, Sancho, Rashford, Lingard and Martial fighting it out for the front 3 positions, and we’d also be 18 goals short. Ronaldo coming back has been a positive, and we can thank Fergie for that (and people like Rio and Evra, in fairness).
Alex Ferguson only wants the best for Manchester United. I have no doubt about that.
Correct, the buck stops with the team appointed to manage the shareholders equity, in law and practice / real life.
If they're daft enough to take advice like that then they should accept the damage to their value.
Absolutely none of that has anything to do with what I posted, I agree with all of it.
But none of that is a guy who 99% just wants to chill with caf, drink wine and watch United :lol.
And that's essentially what United are doing (or trying to) with varying degrees of success.
The club doesn't get every hiring right (arguably most recently) but they're not doing anything that other top clubs aren't doing. Very few top clubs hire CEO's from other clubs, most promote from within look at Liverpool last year. Lots of top clubs hire former players without much experience to fill roles I assume with the hope they will grow into the roles. There are numerous examples of this over the years with many, many clubs.
Fair enough mate, but what I’m saying is that his influence has been minimal in my view over the years. I actually think he chose to step back when the Moyes appointment went as pear shaped as it could have gone.
Tony Green! I’d forgotten about him completely.
It was the lack of signings in the 69-71 era that really did for us (let’s draw a discreet veil over Ian Ure) and the total failure to replace a single one of Crerand, Foulkes and Stiles. The players we were linked to in the press were invariably attacking ones.
Things would have turned out a lot better for O’Farrell if he’d been able to put a team out with (say) Alan Ball and Colin Todd in place of out of position Alan Gowling and hopeless Steve James.
To get vaguely back on topic, how much of that was Sir Matt’s fault is open to debate. The fact remains that Edwards did start to put his hand in his pocket once the Great Man had been sidelined.
It is. It’s also a role that I’d have thought he’d be as qualified to do as anyone else.
What was bizarre (and an unnecessary burden on him) was giving him the title Technical Director. His very specific job isn’t remotely what people normally associate with that role.
Edit: I see you’ve already flagged the job title nonsense in #159
If you all wonder what Fletcher's job is about Garnacho had some very good things to say about him recently
“Justin [Cochrane] and Darren Fletcher are two members of the club who are always very attentive to me, supporting me in all kinds of decisions," the youngster said.
Thats one of our most talented players name checking him
“Justin [Cochrane] and Darren Fletcher are two members of the club who are always very attentive to me, supporting me in all kinds of decisions," the youngster said.
Thats one of our most talented players name checking him
Are we? Arnold has no previous experience as CEO, Murtough had no previous experience as DOF, Fletcher had no previous experience as technical director, Judge had no previous experience as head of contract negotiations. We seem to be on full on the job learning.
Well thank god, I was thinking i was the only sane one checking in here!It is. It’s also a role that I’d have thought he’d be as qualified to do as anyone else.
What was bizarre (and an unnecessary burden on him) was giving him the title Technical Director. His very specific job isn’t remotely what people normally associate with that role.
Edit: I see you’ve already flagged the job title nonsense in #159
Maybe since the recruitment part of the job involves a certain amount of salesmanship, somebody decided that Intra-Squad Transition Facilitator didn’t sound sexy enough. The most junior sales staff at my former company all seemed to have Director in their job title, despite directing the square root of f-all. It’s not that they all were bothered about their titles (though some certainly were
), but customers seemed to expect it.What are those stipulations?
It's obvious that the next Manager's role will be that of a "Head Coach", mainly responsible for coaching and managing the first team, implementing a defined style of play, and deciding on tactics and selections for match day, there's also players recruitment where the head coach, supported by a recruitment department that will help in finding the right type of players, the head coach is also expected to provide input and have a say in that aspect too.
There is also the expectation of integrating academy players into the first team.
so, beside what I mentioned above, which are general in nature, what other stipulations will the incoming new manager be made aware of?
And now Ferguson has made a major push to appoint Ten Hag as manager. SAF's reign of terror continues.
Steve James. Nice bloke but way out of his depth at United. Sir Matt must shoulder some of the blame but he did spend 10 years after Munich building two title winning sides and the European Cup winners. When that was accomplished, he retired but the youth set-up, once our pride and joy, was not producing much. We had to buy, as the tenures of O'Farrell and Docherty showed. Who came through and made any impact? Sammy McIlroy (great debut) is the only one that springs to mind. It wasn't until Fergie arrived that we really invested in the youth again. Big Ron promoted Norman Whiteside but Ron preferred to buy players. I agree with your point about 1969-71. I saw most home games back then and quite a few aways and you could see the team was being passed by the likes of City, Liverpool, Everton, Derby, and Chelsea. 26 years we waited as Liverpool won the lot, Forest won the league and 2 European Cups, and even Villa got one of each. Painful times.
Brian Greenhoff was a good player, though maybe he’d have had a more notable career it’d he’d stayed in midfield. But yes there’s no doubt the youth setup declined in Sir Matt’s final years and thereafter.
Don’t forget how close we came to winning the league in 1980…
Inconsistency again. Got turned over at Ipswich then drew with Everton and Brighton. Lost at Forest and the last game at Elland Road. But, as I recall, Liverpool's goal difference was massive. Didn't Louis Edwards die that season?
I don't suppose you went to Norwich for that League Cup match did you? That was a miserable trip home.
Last edited:
I don’t think I’ve seen a picture or any footage of Ralf speaking to Phelan. Anyone prove me wrong? Even at games Phelan stands and is no where near the touch line or bench.
Very original and thoughtful op.
So SAF couldn’t stop the twins who he liked, or Evans or Smalling leaving the club, neither could he stop Moyes and Co handing Rooney a 6-year contract, etc. However DdG and McT playing for us somehow must be because of him. Great logic.
So SAF couldn’t stop the twins who he liked, or Evans or Smalling leaving the club, neither could he stop Moyes and Co handing Rooney a 6-year contract, etc. However DdG and McT playing for us somehow must be because of him. Great logic.
Ok lets try this again. You say PL teams can't be compared to teams in certain other leagues I don't agree but ok how about some top PL teams then. Can you name the current CEO and DOF at Liverpool, Chelsea or Arsenal?
Liverpool
CEO Billy Hogan promoted from within no previous experience as a CEO at another club.
DOF Michael Edwards promoted from within no previous experience as a DOF at another club.
Chelsea
CEO Guy Laurence hired with no previous experience as a CEO of another football club.
DOF Marina Granovskaia hired from within with no previous experience as a DOF.
Arsenal
CEO Vinai Venkatesham hired from within with no previous experience as a DOF at another club.
DOF Richard Garlick hired from WBA, does have experience as a DOF.
So at those 3 clubs only one out of the 6 had previous experience in their current role with 4 of them promoted from another role within the club. So what exactly are United doing that other top English clubs aren't?
There were lots. Mike Duxbury, Arther Albiston, Our Captain Martin Buckan. Louis Macari. At one time England had the entire United forward like with Pancho as CF, and Coppel and Hill as the two wingers.
Micheal Edwards was head of performance analyst at Portmouth (nearly 6 years) and Spurs (2 years) before moving to Liverpool. He started as Director of technical performance there first as technical director and then as Sporting director.
Chelsea has a different system to ours and more akin to Milan during the Berlusconi time (first years). The owner had been involved in football from day 1 putting his own money on the line, they are extremely active in recruitment (not just on the pitch but off it) and they tend to have zero tolerance towards failure. Those working in Chelsea know that if they badly perform then they are out so everyone on their toes. I don't know why you're mentioning Arsenal though. They haven't won a league title since before our time.
Our system is different and quite ironically is completely opposite to Chelsea's. Despite not working for 9 whole years, people within it keeps getting promoting, sometimes to the ridiculous. Take Fletcher as an example. He was hired as U16 coach in October 2021, by January he became first team coach only to get another promotion in early March. Now he's on the bench in a weird situation as Rangnick himself can't figure out Fletcher's entire role with United.
Here is another guess: Fletcher is apprenticed to Rangnick and learning how to become a Director of Football, and therefore he has to show up anywhere Rangnick is going to. The so-called consultancy is that Fletcher could ask his teacher questions when needed.
I actually could not come up any rational guess on Phelan's role though. He is a coach who is not participating or planning the training sessions. What kind of coach this could be or what exactly he is coaching ?
I actually could not come up any rational guess on Phelan's role though. He is a coach who is not participating or planning the training sessions. What kind of coach this could be or what exactly he is coaching ?
All good to great, but the original point was about the youth setup. Of the players you mention only Duxbury and Albiston came up through there; the rest were signings.
I always thought it was daft persisting with Duxbury at centre back when it was obvious he was more comfortable as a full back.
Yeah and Murtagh was head of performance at Everton before moving to United to become DOF.
So we cant compare United to clubs in other leagues and they can't even be compared to others clubs in the same league as they have a different 'system'
.Do you need a hand moving those goalposts mate?
I can't remember Duxbury playing as CB regularly. I always remember him as a full back.
Coming back to the immediate topic I feel that keeping former players like Fletcher is not good for the club going forward. They need to reinvent and that's by doing it in a different way to what SAF did decades ago.
Too many ex players having too much say is not good.
If we get ETH then it's a good decision by the owners.
How do you explain Pogba and dealing with the virus? personally pretty sure Sir Alex wouldn’t have sanctioned his return, nor our dealings with the fat virus. If Sir Alex had influence he’d certainly not have put up with the constant shite spewed by the virus in the eve of massive games.
Yeah and Murtagh was head of performance at Everton before moving to United to become DOF.
So we cant compare United to clubs in other leagues and they can't even be compared to others clubs in the same league as they have a different 'system'
Do you need a hand moving those goalposts mate?
Do you think that United improved since Murtough joined the club? If not then what justify his promotion (and that of Judge, Fletcher and the rest?)?
Chelsea are completely different to us, its like basically like night and day. Roman is very involved at the club while our owners are not. Chelsea are very inpatient with everyone really which means that everyone is on his toes. We take ages to get rid of players, managers and coaches.
What improvements would you have expected to see from Man Utd that Murtough could have influenced prior to his promotion?
Funnily enough the womens team came under his remit and went from literally not existing to competing for European football.
Pretty major improvement that one.
Indeed. Leeds in the 80s appointed three ex-Revie players in succession as managers, in the hope that some of the Great Man’s magic might have rubbed off onto at least one of them.
People seem to choose to ignore the fact that Fletcher has spent a good bit of the last few years at other clubs. Just because it’s “only” been West Brom and Stoke doesn’t mean he won’t have had his eyes opened to stuff being done in different ways to United. I’d be much more confident of him having an objective view of things than the likes of Neville and Scholes.
For pitys sake! Fred is called "Fred" because his name is Frederico Rodrigues de Paula Santos. And if "Fred" was required by SAF to adopt a more Scottish identity, why isnt he called Jock? Get real.
The man can walk on water and back in the day if a player could not cut it he was gone.
Neither do I think that Neville and Scholes have an objective view either. And West Brom and Stoke are not the examples that I want United to follow.
Ok stay with me here.
If SAF is as heavily involved as there seems to be suggestions in some corners then he is simply sabotaging things for his own legacy.
Sounds ridiculous right? And of course it is.
However if a serial winner, a man who employed various strategies, on and off the pitch (mind games) to gain an advantage and be so successful, is heavily involved then there is no other explanation for how rubbish we have been since his retirement. Or is there?
His face on match days when we are playing dire and drawing or losing doesn't suggest he is happy with the state of things. No way of he was heavily involved would we be where we are. If anything it appears he isn't involved.
As for Moyes.nnues he said stick by him. However what else was he going to say? Although we know now that Moyes was what, 7th choice or something?
If SAF is as heavily involved as there seems to be suggestions in some corners then he is simply sabotaging things for his own legacy.
Sounds ridiculous right? And of course it is.
However if a serial winner, a man who employed various strategies, on and off the pitch (mind games) to gain an advantage and be so successful, is heavily involved then there is no other explanation for how rubbish we have been since his retirement. Or is there?
His face on match days when we are playing dire and drawing or losing doesn't suggest he is happy with the state of things. No way of he was heavily involved would we be where we are. If anything it appears he isn't involved.
As for Moyes.nnues he said stick by him. However what else was he going to say? Although we know now that Moyes was what, 7th choice or something?
Fair enough. I certain learned as much from the crap places I worked as I did from the good ones!
This Is the best post I’ve read in awhile
. Need more legends like you on this forum.Murtagh has barely been here a year which isn't a long time for a DOF to have much of an effect. The transfer strategy for last summer will have already been in place by the time he was hired last March.
And I'm not necessarily justifying any appointment that United have made or saying they were good hires, I'm simply highlighting that the club's hiring choices are no different to most clubs.
Waffle.