Moyes 2.0 wow, shocking post but not surprising in here at thet moment unfortunately.
Fans are turning on Ole faster than they did on Moyes, LVG and Jose
- Thread starter Sir Scott McToMinay
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Managers don't get time these days, we all knew that.
But to write him off before he's even hinted at a player signing is incredible.
He's got the most insane job this summer.
De Gea and Pogba clearly massive angling for moves, and that's before we've actually tried to sort the rest of the mess out.
Yet a couple of months ago he was saying just getting top 4 would "rightfully" see him appointed. Now it's "ridiculous", when barely anyone was saying so after about 15 wins in 18 and the PSG high.
I hear what you're saying, but it's also slightly disingenuous to compare the two. Fergie had done an absolutely phenomenal job up in Scotland (at a time when Scottish football was a lot stronger), broken the dominance of the Old Firm with a much smaller, provincial club, and even won a European Trophy.
You could arguably say that the conditions that Fergie inherited were actually quite similar to what Ole has to contend with now: a club trading on its history and reputation, left behind by its biggest rivals, and with a personnel problem requiring some skilful and ruthless management. I have no idea what Martin Edward's recruitment process was like at the time, but by accident or design he made the absolute perfect appointment for the job at hand - and then backed the manager to make wholesale squad changes and held his nerve through the bad times.
The worry then is that we are at a similarly crucial point in the club's history, but have almost accidentally ended up with Ole in permanent charge. It's quite normal, and not disloyal, childish, moronic (or any other of the adjectives I've seen bandied around over the last few days) to be concerned that Ed Woodward has made a decision based on a short run of decent performances and good results, when actually we were crying out for the most in-depth and forensic recruitment process in the club's history. This is nothing personal to Ole, and it's not disrespectful to a legend. It's sensible.
Regardless of the idiots who cannot see even over the games that we have lost that the football is at least watchable, where-as under Mou I just recorded it and fast forwarded through, and only went to a few games
people also need to look at who we have lost to, and in the same breath consider that we need 4 - 6 players in to even look at being competetive
Ole has given me back enjoyment of my club, that has not waned since he hit the ground running (barring the Everton game), these last few months of adversity only give me more faith that he will turn it round and deliver next season and more enjoyment in the journey, when we are talking about building a team the Utd way, youth, talent, excitement
Also forget how we got here, if when Ole had taken over we were told that he would be possibly finishing 3rd / 4th with 2 games to go, failing that being within a point or two of doing so, beating PSG in the CL to make the last 8 where we would be knocked out by Barca.... not 1 fan on here or around the world would not have belived it, and would have snatched your hand off then and there.... we need to get real, Ole has done and continues to do an amazing job and deserves some slack
people also need to look at who we have lost to, and in the same breath consider that we need 4 - 6 players in to even look at being competetive
Ole has given me back enjoyment of my club, that has not waned since he hit the ground running (barring the Everton game), these last few months of adversity only give me more faith that he will turn it round and deliver next season and more enjoyment in the journey, when we are talking about building a team the Utd way, youth, talent, excitement
Also forget how we got here, if when Ole had taken over we were told that he would be possibly finishing 3rd / 4th with 2 games to go, failing that being within a point or two of doing so, beating PSG in the CL to make the last 8 where we would be knocked out by Barca.... not 1 fan on here or around the world would not have belived it, and would have snatched your hand off then and there.... we need to get real, Ole has done and continues to do an amazing job and deserves some slack
The concept that you can’t judge Solskjaer’s ability as a manager because he hasn’t bought his own players and a pre season to shape the squads fitness is wrong. BS. All of us gave him praise the first couple of month because of better results and overall improvements on the pitch. In certain games we also saw a embryo of how he wanted to move this club forward. Everybody was happy and the mood was all time high. If we could judge him then we can judge him now.
Fast forward two month with historically bad results. The improvements we saw in the beginning is fading away. Players who don’t perform to expectations. New line ups every weekend. Lack of continuity. It’s difficult to see a structure, a modern plan or a vision moving forward. All we hear is that our fitness sucks and the media is starting to speculate who’s leaving or not. Off course a new manager has to take some blame when things go south.
There are things that is partly outside Solskjaer’s control. Herrera gets injured at the worst possible time. Matic’s decline. Shaw suspension. Rashford, Lukaku and Lingard don’t delivers as expected. Our defensive. De Gea. Fred. And of course players who’re not good enough. Nothing of the above falls on Ole Gunnar’s shoulders. He’s in charge but he can’t take responsibility when Fred, Andreas, David, Chris or whoever it is royally f*cking things up.
But why I’m skeptical is because I don’t see a structure. He don’t present a vision. All I hear is fitness and yada yada new players yada yada the United way...or whatever nonsense spreading around. On top of that he sometimes looks clueless and without confidence. Harsh words but compare his approach last couple of weeks from his first two month.
He will off course stay because the club can’t sack him at this point.
But whatever all the top red supporters say I’m not confident of the future. I see signs of Moyes. A manager without the experience and the knowledge how to manage a giant club like United. I real hope I’m wrong but the signs doesn’t look good.
Fast forward two month with historically bad results. The improvements we saw in the beginning is fading away. Players who don’t perform to expectations. New line ups every weekend. Lack of continuity. It’s difficult to see a structure, a modern plan or a vision moving forward. All we hear is that our fitness sucks and the media is starting to speculate who’s leaving or not. Off course a new manager has to take some blame when things go south.
There are things that is partly outside Solskjaer’s control. Herrera gets injured at the worst possible time. Matic’s decline. Shaw suspension. Rashford, Lukaku and Lingard don’t delivers as expected. Our defensive. De Gea. Fred. And of course players who’re not good enough. Nothing of the above falls on Ole Gunnar’s shoulders. He’s in charge but he can’t take responsibility when Fred, Andreas, David, Chris or whoever it is royally f*cking things up.
But why I’m skeptical is because I don’t see a structure. He don’t present a vision. All I hear is fitness and yada yada new players yada yada the United way...or whatever nonsense spreading around. On top of that he sometimes looks clueless and without confidence. Harsh words but compare his approach last couple of weeks from his first two month.
He will off course stay because the club can’t sack him at this point.
But whatever all the top red supporters say I’m not confident of the future. I see signs of Moyes. A manager without the experience and the knowledge how to manage a giant club like United. I real hope I’m wrong but the signs doesn’t look good.
It's difficult to see if you don't understand tactics and only focus on results, yes.
I find it funny people are blaming Ole for the position we are currently in. He took over when we were in a absolute mess. 13 points of Spurs and 11 off fourth. It's still not dawned on people that there is an issue with this group of players. An issue of poor recruitment and poor planning that goes back to Fergie's departure. We've seen Ole can get big results and a run of performances but there is clear issues. This Summer will be down to the backing of the board. Then 'if' Ole gets the players he wants and wants gone, only then can we judge at the end of next season. Years of neglect and poor attitude and expectations has crept in to Man United. This was never an overnight fix, anyone that thought a Zidane or Poch could have done something different with this group so soon is crazy. I know it's the now generation of wanting things instant but there needs to be realism. Did you really think Ashley Young was going to captain us to Champions league.
It doesn't mean fans have to happy with our current situation. They really need to refocus on who is to blame, how we got here. It was not one bad manager or transfer window, it's been a combination over a few years. The only way of getting out of this mess is facing this head on now. Who needs to go, who wants to go and who can we actually get rid off. Then who wants to come for the right reasons, who is the right profile of player that Ole wants. After the incomings and outgoings it's solidifying that dressing room, everyone needs to get on the same page. There is something rotten in that United dressing room that needs removed. We need leadership on and off the pitch and a great pre season. That's many things to align in a few months, I think blaming Ole is flawed at this stage. We should be looking at leadership at the top, why have we not sorted DOF, why are there so many contracts running down and players leaving for nothing. Is Ole going to be allowed to get the players we need? There was interfering last summer and the manager wasn't backed regardless of who he wanted. It's about backing the manager on and off the field, this goes for the fans too.
It doesn't mean fans have to happy with our current situation. They really need to refocus on who is to blame, how we got here. It was not one bad manager or transfer window, it's been a combination over a few years. The only way of getting out of this mess is facing this head on now. Who needs to go, who wants to go and who can we actually get rid off. Then who wants to come for the right reasons, who is the right profile of player that Ole wants. After the incomings and outgoings it's solidifying that dressing room, everyone needs to get on the same page. There is something rotten in that United dressing room that needs removed. We need leadership on and off the pitch and a great pre season. That's many things to align in a few months, I think blaming Ole is flawed at this stage. We should be looking at leadership at the top, why have we not sorted DOF, why are there so many contracts running down and players leaving for nothing. Is Ole going to be allowed to get the players we need? There was interfering last summer and the manager wasn't backed regardless of who he wanted. It's about backing the manager on and off the field, this goes for the fans too.
I'm sorry but respectfully on what basis do you assume Ole is the better manager?
Although I conceed he was not for man united, or a top level manager (in the same way Ole isn't) David Moyes was chosen by Ferguson because he had transformed Everton from a constant relagation candidate into a contender for top 4. He actually got everton into the champions leauge in 2004-5, something I am not aware Ole has ever done, or ever got close to.
He came to united with a ridiculous amount of expectation, was given very little time, while managing a team, who by all accounts didn't give him any respect (if Rios book is anything to go by) whatsoever because he was not a top level manager. Wouldn't surprise me one bit if the same thing is happening with Ole.
Moyes gets ridiculed by the same people who are demanding Ole be given time, and who lower expectations, and bend over backwards to make excuses on his behalf. Apparently these days managers need all new players before any judgement can be made!
Its one thing to believe/hope Ole will do well at united but David Moyes was, and is the more experienced, and successful of the two managers. That is just a fact.
Ole really is Moyes 2.0 and I don't mean that as an insult to either man. He's just another rather out of his depth manager without top level credentials who eventually the team will scapegoat, and throw under the bus.
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He could easily say you're the one who doesn't understand tactics and advanced attacking patterns if you haven't noticed its clear absence in our play
He would be wrong. It's simple facts that Ole does have a tactic/pattern but the question is if its good enough and if he can properly execute it. You can say Ole is a bad appointment but if you say he is completely clueless tactically you just don't understand tactics.
To say anyone said he's 'completely tactically clueless' is a strawman you invented. For example the consensus here was Jose wasn't the best at organising an attack but no one read that to mean he was completely tactically clueless. Also the patterns spoken of mean modern patterns because technically even hoofball through the channels can be considered a pattern in the loosest sense of the word
No one is giving him abuse, people are just pointing out that faith in him is based on 2 months of good form and him being a club legend. Those shouldn't be enough to get a job as big as United. Would any single PL club take him on as manager if he were to leave United tomorrow.
Playing style shows you what the manager is trying to achieve in the long run. With Pep and Klopp few months were enough to see. We don't have a plan A. We don't have a plan B to change a game when it is not going our way.
As I said. All made up. We have a plan and style and it was obvious during our run. They didn't just go there and played by themselves. Weather other clubs would take him is another made up argument.
Yada yada.... what tf do you know what I focus on or not.
Liverpool and City has a structure. The have the majority of possession, they create more chances, they delivers results both on good and bad days. Just like United did ten years ago.
At the moment I see Ajax playing with a clear idea how to control the game. They create chances and so far they create more chances with a better game plan and better structure then Spurs. (after 30 minutes)
It’s not that difficult to separate a team with a structure and vision and a team who sooner or later ending up on their back heels and is relying on individual moments to create chances. It’s not rocket science we talk about.
I don't think tactics is the issue.
Even david moyes with his borish tactics could work if you aim for top 4. Many lower tables teams have a very simple tactics but still it's visible what they're doing and the players know how they want to play even if it's parking the bus you know the team knows what to do.
Our squad however, 4 managers after fergie failed to show anythjng other than vague description by fans trying to digest what our style is. And i dont believe the 4 managers so far doesn't understand tactics. Lvg and mourinho are seasoned veteran, you might not like their phylosophy but you cant say they dont know their stuff.
One or two manager failed it's on them. But when all 4 managers failed to employ something resembling a football team the question might lay on the players, do they think they're bigger than the manager that they dont want to follow his instruction to the tee? Or are they too dumb to understand? I think it's the former. Look at the players we sold, suddenly they revert back to a proper footballer once they play for other club.
Problem with drawing such is the teams were different. Off the top of my head the team LVG had featured Rooney, Schneiderlin, RVP, Blind, Rojo. Jose cleared most of that batch and the ones who remained were the ones he wanted playing for him
Amen brother. Considering the shit state he took over, and the fact he still has a squad full of crap how can anyone judge him. He's got to have a good window, and show some signs of a direction and improvement, but he's eared the right to that much. He will do a grand job.
Are you just replacing ‘fake news’ with ‘made up’ to defend Ole?
If it was obvious during our run where has it gone now. Have the players just forgotten?
Would any other club have hired Ole is a question? It is to point out how hastily the board acted for the fourth time in a row without any due diligence or putting feelers out for the top managers.
Moyes took over a team that won the league by 11 points and took them to 7th the following season, breaking all types of records on the way(all bad). Losing to absolute dirt at Old Trafford and getting bantered all the way, new record every few weeks. Crossing the balls clueless against a Fulham side at home repeatedly without a clue. Ole came in 13 points behind Spurs and next to no hope of 4th after getting beat by Liverpool. He went on a huge run beating Arsenal, Chelsea, Spurs and PSG along the way. Scoring many goals along the way with a different style of play with more pressing and countering effectively. He hasn't had a pre season, transfer window as permanent manager and will likely miss out on 4th by a point or two. Don't compare Ole to fecking Moyes. Take a step back and look as the entire picture of how we got here. This place is a joke at the minute.
Well we did and have a plan then? Fitness and injuries and some players not giving a damn has caught up.
It's so common, fans being fickle and impatient.
Ole is a risk, he deserves time and a chance and board backing him.
His post was so bad that I admire you even replied.
It's not a strawman. Seen plenty of posts here talking about how he's a confused deer in headlights.
I know what you focus on because of what you complain.
Ha ha
It’s 2019 and people are still here defending Moyes? 
My opinion is I seen enough from Oles first 11 or 12 games to see what he wants to achieve and the style of football he wants to play. Our players aren't fot enough and we need some new ones. I'll properly judge him this time next year.
Shouldn't lump opinions together or you'll end up categorising all critics as clueless keyboard warriors frothing at the mouth after every loss
It makes me sick to see people turn on Ole. Of course he probably isn't up to it but no-one is. The club structure needs root and branch reform, and anyone who can't see that is just plain thick.
The wheel is still in spin, and Ole is now starting to break his own records. Of course for your logic to make sense everything good that happened had to have been down to Ole, and everything bad on account of the terrible players.
Never said Moyes was a good manager for united either, but said the very opposite! I said he is more qualified than Ole, more experienced, and with more success as a manager. The point being that Ole will probably go the same way Moyes did and be sacked after a run of poor form. I clearly said both mangers were not top level, and out of their depth at United.
The big picture?
I was comparing the two men’s careers over many years while you are adjudging Ole to be a better manager than Moyes on the basis of a winning streak, and yet I’m the shortsighted idiot! You don’t have any idea if Ole is really a good manager or not, you simply hope desperately that he is one!
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I've seen evidence Ole can get us playing, I seen nothing from Moyes. Agreeing that he's Moyes 2.0 is garbage. You don't believe Ole is the man that's fine, I think with the right Summer Ole will get Man United playing again. The big picture is the mess he's inherited, if you can't see that then I can't help you.
Moyes was way more qualified that Ole.
Whether he works out or not, make no mistake, Solskjaer's appointment is literally mental in how utterly unqualified he is. It's a fecking bonkers appointment, even if he works out.
That said, the good moments that Ole has brought - PSG, the Chelsea and Arse wins etc - is more than Moyes brought.
Moyes was dour from the get go, he never had any oomph to his footy, whereas I believe Ole wants to play good stuff, I just don't believe he's good enough to do it.
I also think the 'more running' stuff coming from Solskjaer is worringly 'lower league' and 'Moyesian' in it's make-up.
Whether he works out or not, make no mistake, Solskjaer's appointment is literally mental in how utterly unqualified he is. It's a fecking bonkers appointment, even if he works out.
That said, the good moments that Ole has brought - PSG, the Chelsea and Arse wins etc - is more than Moyes brought.
Moyes was dour from the get go, he never had any oomph to his footy, whereas I believe Ole wants to play good stuff, I just don't believe he's good enough to do it.
I also think the 'more running' stuff coming from Solskjaer is worringly 'lower league' and 'Moyesian' in it's make-up.
Moyes more qualified? That's just mental. What the hell did Moyes ever do? Spending a couple of seasons getting Preston promoted to First Division before turning a sub-par Everton side into a mediocre one? And when he took over at United we were a side that was dominating the league and had been for decades yet when he left we were stuck mid-table! And you honestly think this makes him more qualified than Solskjær? Someone who spent years doing a great job at our reserves winning trophies there before leading Molde to their first two league titles ever - consecutive ones even and in a league that's been pretty much a one-team show for decades - plus guiding it to a domestic cup as well? And then after making the mistake of joining a Cardiff side destined to fail (read up on that by the way how they were structured if you think Woodward and the Glazers are so bad) - he returned and rebuilt his old team once more into the side that are now first in Norway and leading by eleven points - and also did well in Europe against much bigger opposition? Oh and unlike Moyes who sent us spiraling down from the top - after Ole joined us we've turned from being a mid-table side that were actually closer to the bottom half (three points from eleventh) than the top four (eleven points) back into a top-six side again.
I swear I'm usually not as harsh as I've been on this forum lately but it has to be said - repeated over and over again even - that you guys are absolutely clueless and void of anything even resembling a grip on reality. Solskjær may not have been the obvious first choice and it still remains to be seen if he's the right fit - but we've done way better since he joined (quite good actually all things considering) and he is sure as hell is more qualified than Moyes could ever hope to be.
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Moyes Everton reign in the PL far outweighs anything that Ole has done with Cardiff, who he got relegated, and Molde, who are akin to a League 1 side.
Of course Moyes was more qualified initially than Ole is - to suggest otherwise is farcical.
He hasn’t proved he has ever succeeded as a manager for Premier league club. Suddenly he was appointed the manager of the biggest club in the world. Why not considering Giggs, Rooney, Scholes? They have a more successful career.
He's right though. I don't know what's funny. Same when another poster got slaughtered because he said Rodgers had a better CV than Ole so far. It's as if some don't recognize Ole is just starting his career at big jobs and his previous experience were with Molde and Cardiff. He's still at the beginning, so managers like Moyes and Rodgers, even if they were shite compared to other elite manager, they have so far better CV than Ole. That's hardly rocket science. He may surpass them in the future if he ends up having a better managing career but for now, there's nothing that funny in what he said.
I've already elaborated on this numerous times but sure why not. Ole's impact on every team he's coached is far greater than anything Moyes had to show for when he was offered the job - and his impact on United too has so far been positive - despite inheriting a team that was badly struggling even - something Moyes can't even hint at without the entire footballing community breaking down in tearful laughter. So here's a challenge for you - because I've already explained myself so now it's your turn: Please tell me exactly why you feel Moyes' lower league achievements and the following lack of real progress during his Everton days - followed by his downright catastrophic influence on our club - trumps that of Solskjær's achievements both here and elsewhere?
And here's a couple of hints: If you bring up Cardiff you have no point at all because that club had only won three games by the time he joined them (and also their biggest shareholder was a madman so I'm still at a complete loss as to why he would even consider that job when things were going so well back home) - and despite all of this he actually did way better with them that year than the manager he stepped in for. Also he was sacked only a month into the next season - and the following manager looked no better either (worse in fact at least most of Ole's defeats were in the Premier League against tougher opposition) despite being given way more time than him - so yeah...
Hardly telling of anything beyond him showing himself too eager getting to England accepting a job only someone desperate enough to throw themselves at a lost cause would consider.
And also - if you rely on arguing the fact that Everton is a more prestigious club in a more prestigious league than those of Ole's past ventures - and that even just showing up for work there automatically makes you more accomplished than someone actually achieving something that's quite impressive in a league of lower renown - then you've already lost because it matters feck all how big a deal your club and your position might be as long as you never really aspire to any heights there the way Ole has during his ventures.
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